The main downsides to this setup are goristro, draudnu, stygia, and ichors. I prefer to craft CFS and AEF weapons before ACF and CEF, though once you have access to 8+ weapons it doesn't matter anyway. Since buffing more than 2 weapons is generally a pain, it doesn't usually matter at all. But if you have to face a goristro or draudnu no Acid/Elec weapon can be painful, if you can't easily instakill gelugon/amnizu, AEF is great to buff, and CFS is great for nessus(ichors) and Azzagrat(better babau/kelvezu slaying). On the other hand, CEF is great for shed due to its greater effectiveness against arcane oozes and bebeliths.
In general for hells buff CES dnp + AFS dmp and you are set except for nessus you want to buff CFS dmp for ichors. In abyss in shed you can buff CEF dnp + AFS dmp (ooze/alkilith + other weapon) and you are usually set. For zion fire/mag weapon(no elec) + AEF (ekolid + other weapon) is a good choice. In GM you want to buff Mari+Balor+DK weapons. In azzagrat you want to buff AEF goristro/tree weapon for part 1 at least, and also mari+balor weapons throughout. In than you basically want to keep a balor weapon and undead weapon (AFS dnp)
Overall it's hard to work in an optimal serpent weapon (AES dnp) into the setup unfortunately, though I wouldn't consider that mandatory until you are super-weapon rich ^^
As far as megadamage weapon go, it's nice to have a megadamage fire weapon for all abyss bosses except obox of which it is nice to have megadamage acid weapon. The reason megadamage weapons are popular against these bosses is because they have a LOT of damage resistance to elemental damage.
Pff, you can ista most of that fodder or it's so rare it doesn't deserve a specific weapon until very late
On a more serious note, I usually eat the dps drop and use the CES weapon for ichors too, given they spawn along with pit fiends and losing a full round can be counterproductive; CFS is one of my weapons for abyss but usually in hells I buff two weapons and that's it, you don't want to stress casters too much.
Correct, the main use of CFx is against marilith and ekolids. And all the main enemies you use a EFx weapon against can be instakilled (mainly by a good druid), making it the least necessary weapon to craft. In fact the only reason you have it crafted is because you made your CFx weapon CEF which heals ekolids - using CFS makes it good against marilith and ekolids alike. I was just pointing out the subtle differences that exist. If I only had 4 weapons to craft I would make AFS, CES, ACS, and CFS (yes, all 4 with sonic on them).
I understand your point of view Raj, and thanks there is stuff in there that I didnt know or understand before. However there is another side to this story. As HG is already unbalanced in favour of casters it seems odd to me that melee types have to beg, steal or borrow buffs for their weapon to be effective. As a tank, you rarely get a full set of buffs on a weapon, and as you point out you need to get buffs on at least two, and preferably three weapons. It would be interesting if diffcult to implement, where casters needed certain assistance from melees before their spells were effective. I can here the howls on anguise from here to xmas time. All the weapons I have on my melee types are unfit to use in high LL runs without considerable assistance from casters. The weapons as stand alone tools are naff, so I'm surprised how difficult they are to acquire. I've played on HG 3/4 years, I have only seem one Stygian Razor and one Abyss katana drop (and that was snaffled by a player who normally plays casters ahead of me in the roll!!!!). I had to pay in excess of 500 Million to get a razor, and that is not an ideal weapon. Incidentally, I have been quoted 80-100 Mil for the L35 katana! I have run numerous Dispaters (It the only run I will almost always do without a tagger for the chance of a weapon drop) and have never seen a Dis Katana, but I must have seen more than a dozen pointed sticks drop, FFS. Also I think I have never seen a DB katana drop, not seen one for sale in the chests either. Given how naff these weapons are without buffs, it begs the question: why are they so difficult to acquire? In contrast, You have at least a 30% chance of caster gear each successful TIA run, spread across only 5 caster types, compared to how many different types of weapon might drop. I could switch to a different weapon type, say a pointed stick, but I get my enjoyment out of playing my characters with the gear I prefer, and I think that is a compromise too far for me. If you are saying don't come on runs if your kit is sub-optimal then I think you are excluding a sizeable percentage of the current players and the constant dribble of newbies that the server needs to keep going. I would suggest that the caster guild if they want better tanking, help the supply of Dis/DB weapons. In summary, I would love to have a DIS and DB katana's to craft(ditto war hammers, 2 bladed swords, long sword, bsword, gtsword), how the F*** do I get them.
Last Edit: Nov 2, 2013 23:44:27 GMT by swe: grammer and content
Hello, I suppose you're swemson/zil in game? Well, sorry to disappoint you, but you're doing it wrong
Finding spare weapons might look problematic: I saw quite many level 70+ NOOBS using a single, uncrafted, sometime lvl35 weapon in the end game areas (gaining a quite bad reputation out of that, but the good thing is they are the main sponsors of this guide), because they coudn't find spare weapons. BS.
First of all, stop look at the posted builds and copy their weapon of choice: everybody love to suggest katanas and bastard swords with the result that finding such weapons is a desperate mission. Most of the enemies you want to tank are crit immune, or take bad slashing damage, so you can safely choose less ''oomph'' weapons: warhammers, maces, battleaxes, longswords... martial weapons have low market demand and are perfectly fine. Keep in mind the choice of damage is important, and even more important is swapping to the right weapon istantly instead of running like a chicken when you meet a healing-type monster and your only katana has the wrong dmg type: if you have 4 unused DB longswords in bank and only one bastard sword, by all means choose longsword for your next tank.
I think you have a 18/22 ftr/wm build, now, that's quite a ugly build but most important of all, it gets absolutely no benefit from using a katana over a better weapon; in fact, katana is a terrible weapon that gets suggested in many forum builds by people concerned with critical range (where crit multiplier is more important, better dmg types are even more important, and availability of weapons is crucial).
Razor on the other side is a very bad weapon because it can't be crafted, so most of the time your off-hand attacks are doing next to nothing (or worse, healing) and the dev crit it provides is not worth it; afaik you use katana+shield, on a plate user so the dmg output is terribly low and you miss the whole point of katana being a weapon for dexters.
Trying to fish for db/dis katanas is a desperate mission.
I'll leave to others to calculate the chances of at least one of three random weapons to be the right weapon out of 47 available ones, and for you to win it (aka, rolling first, considering db/dis runs loot splits are quite lackluster loot wise); if you ask me, 100 millions for a 35 katana was incredibly cheap too. Atm there's a db katana on auction at 1bil rsv price, considering how much junk get sold for couple hundreds millions, a billion for a weapon of choice is a fair price (buffed db weapons are better than dis ones), but I'd never make a katana user tank anyway, food for thoughts.
Reincarnate with a better weapon, I'd suggest bludgeoning martial ones for hells/abyss, and hammers/maces are a lot easier to get. Having the right damage types available means lot higher dmg output if you know when to swap. Feel free to ask in game about tips for the build as well.
Edit: If your main toon is a tank you're going to have issue farming gold/gear as well, so if 100-500 millions seem stellar values and good gear isn't coming fast enough it's time to play a more useful toon for the party.
Tanks are useful in this game, in fact the ability you're asking for (something available to tanks, to buff dmg done by casters) is already implemented, because if a tank is doing its job keeping enemies away from casters the latter can spam dmg instead of running/healing; the problem is that a badly geared tank is A LOT more fragile than a badly geared caster (generally speaking, a buff casted by a newbie has the same effectiveness of the same buff casted by a rich boy), and a tank using wrong/uncrafted weapons is going to kill at so slow rate that monsters will be free to roam over the casters.
So, weak tanks are next to useless, they don't get hired for good runs and can't start runs on their own, hence little chances for good gear/gold to buy/trade for good gear and weapons to craft and become better... it's a spiral that hits many people in game thinking a tank is the perfect newbie toon.
The 18/22 build was to get extra feats at a cost of WM levels. The reasoning was as a noob, I didn't and still don't have the range of equipment/arti's/subraces etc that allows me to be effective. I intend to reincarnate that toon after the next Ness and my limited range of useful weapons suggest that longsword or more likely Heavy Pick will be the weapon of choice. Oddly, that was what it used originally. The primary objective for me with this toon, was as a gear getter for following toons.
That aside, I think you are missing my point. Does HG have enough subscribers it can afford to tell noobs like me and all the others to "piss off, your toon is sub-optimal"? For example we were on a hells run recently and there was a tank even more noobish than me, as far as I could see I was the only one giving him advice (the blind leading the blind!) and stayed around afterwards to explain some stuff. There is a steady stream of newbies on this server, very few it seems to me stay the distance. Encouragement and help, rather than exclusion should be the way forwards.
I don't think I'm missing the point, I even answered the question in advance because in the original post I was suggesting people to use easily affordable and effective weapons, if you play different your toon is sub-optimal, being a game accept it and modify your standard, it's never personal offence telling somebody the build can be upgraded, or is it?
I could switch to a different weapon type, say a pointed stick, but I get my enjoyment out of playing my characters with the gear I prefer, and I think that is a compromise too far for me. If you are saying don't come on runs if your kit is sub-optimal then I think you are excluding a sizeable percentage of the current players and the constant dribble of newbies that the server needs to keep going. I would suggest that the caster guild if they want better tanking, help the supply of Dis/DB weapons. In summary, I would love to have a DIS and DB katana's to craft(ditto war hammers, 2 bladed swords, long sword, bsword, gtsword), how the F*** do I get them.
Everybody wants to use the toon they love, but that's not always possible. Heck, it's 6 or more years I ask for bane knights to become playable so I can remake my first toon here, but so far no luck, and you don't see me playing a sup-optimal toon either.
I'm not saying don't come on runs, I'm saying don't come on runs with THAT toon. Actually, I'm not even saying that, because it's up to you how you intend to play, but when I rant about lack of cores and tanks having hard time to buff/find adeguate gear I intend to provoke a constructive reaction: "maybe if I play something more party oriented I could jump on a lot more runs and they'll actually start instead of standing still in the workshop", "more runs = more gear = I can make the damn katana tank and rule" and "I've been on HG 3-4 years how come that guy who's here since 6 months has everything? Let's see his main toons.. oh look, bard, druid and cleric..." should be spontaneous thoughts.
That aside, I think you are missing my point. Does HG have enough subscribers it can afford to tell noobs like me and all the others to "piss off, your toon is sub-optimal"?
It's a game, this is a character build board, so yes. Yours attitude is wrong and leaned toward the usual "haves vs haves-not" drama, while in fact you're getting a spot in deep hell runs and been around more than many guys who now have no gear issue whatsoever; accept critiques to your build/playstyle and arrange accordingly.
If I were you, I'd play some other toon to farm gear while putting on hold your main tank until it can contribute effectively with finely crafted weapons (in past I reincarnated toons with Cania tag but suppose that's a bit too harsh nowadays? it would be a good sign anyway); weapons aren't that pricy anyway, I remember farming 150-200millions/day with a lone open race level 43 bane knight alone selling deepbat tunnels/maze loot, and I was doing it damn wrong, so you could stick with tank but build yourself a healthy bank account first.
It is not tough to farm gear even if you can't solo a run you just take any run you can. If you are needing better defensive gear it might be best to avoid Hell/Abyss/Abo/Ely runs and stick to some others but eventually you will need to get BURs and outside of Rona you won't see them if you don't go to those other areas. If all you lack is weapons the best thing to do is look up which runs have a set weapon of your chosen weapon and try and call some of those as well try and run Toyshop, Dustbone, and Dis. There is also usually a Hell weapon dropped on another layer such as the Stygian Razor most of them I believe drop in Min.
Thanks for this great post. From what I understand, if you have a DB weapon with 4 ele + 2 exotic types (instead of 3/3), then you have to stick with that 4/2 distribution.. right? If so, how would the 2 Hells weapon recommendations change if you had to add an elemental type and subtract an exotic?
Those weapons are good damage wise since elements can be buffed higher than exotics but you probably need to carry more spare weapons against healers.
Sticking to Hells, you obviously want the best damage/no healing against the sturdier targets:
1) ACES DN
Obvious no fire weapon vs pit fiends, no magic either so you can bash brood snakes and magebanes that are mostly tank duty as well. Divine is good vs most stuff, negative has been choosed to avoid heal rare but vert problematic targets, superior narzugons and brachinas. You are going to use this weapon most of the time in Phleg/Malad/Cania/Nessus so better be ready to focus nasty randoms. Also works fine against hell bosses.
2) ACFS DP
No electric for the also relative common electric healers that casters cannot instakill, aka paragon cornugons and malebranche. Negative is a ok damage against them but hardly buffed up, so better go positive and have a good damaging weapon against superior infestiarchs and excruciarchs. You are going to use this weapon most of the time in Tia/Dis/Min/Malb due to the assortment of mobs there, and not many pit fiends overall.
The obvious third choice here would be a Minauros weapon to deal with the healers we didn't cover already, and it's also going to be a good weapon for cold layers (Stygia and one map of Cania for sure):
3a) EF DM
The problem here would be having divine on all 3 weapons, and albeit that's a great damage type in Hells it leaves you with no weapon vs the very problematic superior orthons and annoying superior baatorian golems. Quite rare targets (and the former is always a good eradicate target anyway, or bigby9 and nuke from afar; golems you crumble/plode/disint eventually) so I woudn't mind much and maybe just carry a 4th unbuffed weapon just to swing something at them the 1 time in 100 runs you'll have to bash them. Alternatively, swap weapon 2) to 2a) ACFS MP , but that's quite a hit in efficiency.
It might be that you do not own a quite rare Minauros weapon so try to put your hands on some level 50 or megadmg weapon of the appropriate type, they are often ignored. Fire+anything else is probably the safest choice against most cold and acid healers (your main issues with just weapon 1 & 2 would be paragon gelugons and ichors, plus the very common erinnies that might end dominate half party).
Once you have a Dis weapon then a solid alternative could be
3b) EFS DMP
and then you just carry a level 50 with anything but sonic and divine for the odd healers.