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Post by tomaan on Sept 12, 2013 0:06:54 GMT
Exactly. You can make an "effective" build with just about any class (and even the quasis!) that can contribute to the party, even if it doesn't top the logs. And no, I'm not suggesting that being a log leader isn't fun, just that you shouldn't always let that guide your build choices. Besides, sometimes that "fun to play" build turns out to be a log leader too, in which case you've killed two Drocs with one Perpetual Nature's Spite.
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Post by fallenwizard on Sept 12, 2013 0:18:59 GMT
Well, we all have our preferences.
Sorc Cleric Bard Druid Shifter
Those 5 are hands down the classes.
I'd just call it "The Fab 5". Personaly I can't tell apart next 3 out of group of dozen build types. On the other hand, even the shifter, while being awesome in it self, will get replaced by picker/searcher if you create a 5man group. Sure, shifter is nice at dragging unbalanced groups, as they do it all and kill trash ignoring SR's, provides buffs and debuffs. They are nice by all means. But in big group, all the "real ones" out shines them. Abos/ely are propably only runs where one does pick shifter in top 3 setup.
OP prefers his tanks to provide utility and survive damage, but all of them are quite vulnerable to disables. A disabled tank, even a BC with GR running, will die. Not to mention how squishy that WC is when balor dominates you around something like para babau that inflicts 50% acid a hit. Same goes for paladin, they typical bumb up their charisma, which means their offstat (usually dex) is left lower than other tank types.
Ofcourse my opinion of best tanks are ofcourse (like OP's) biased by my own tank selection (or tank's that my friends play the most). I'd say my MMoD is next to no one in durability on the server. You can throw spawn of Elite PF, Maleb, Mari, Balor, Ichor + several Solars (one of the highest AB enemy that I recall) as well as punch of trash around there, preferably infliction types to show the importance of not being disabled. It wont kill anything there, but it'll tank it all. It wont buff party or provide only small help at beating their regen, but it'll stay alive. We could also do this in Shed forest placed under water, mean, perfect mind immunity with no need to swap survival item. Only thing in there which'd kill monk there is some AOE mord ripping death ward just as Solar rolls 20, on a round no one else has rolled 20, ignores deflect arrow, gets through Edodge, gets pass concealment (15min per day, 30 with fine print when really needed) and I roll 1 vs arrow of d00mz. Now for everyone who says "that is with Were-style randomized gearzzz". My monk doesnt wear any real uber items. Sure all are upped burs, with imms going from 10% to 13% average, have added regen of 80 per round in the mix, but nothing spectacular. The build is somewhat "un fun" to play, because what makes it fun to play often ruins the fun for others. By this I mean, LEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOY is what I shout when I play it.
And, the current content doesnt offer enough chalenge for groups to need this kind of a tank. Say we scale runs by numbers of 0-100 in difficulty scaling for what it comes down to tanking them.
LL runs are 0-10, some requires special immunities, like loca where you need wb, mord and need some stat checks not be kd'd, can also be turned into shark and drowned, nothing that proper tank wont survive for days.
Hell runs goes from something like 10 of Tia (you need AC + evasion and nothing will touch you) to something like 50 at styg where enemies can freeze, amni, implo, dom and most importantly, spam EQ, which makes tanking full styg spawns quite hard without casters doing their job. Asmo spawn will reach something like 85 on the scale. Last week did nessus where his 3rd form spawned some para maleb, elite ichor and bunch of other stuff, tanking 8 mobs + Asmo was something my AA barely managed to do, unbuffed with 5-10 sec lag. Meaning barely, I was chunking down pots every 3rd round just to be sure I wont die in the mix of lag and possible inflictions. Now, some abyss prince fights, like Demo with balor/Mari/DK/hunters/sreams + demo him self, are way more terrifying, reaching scale of 90-95 depending on rolls of paragons. My AA, that is heck of a tanky, wouldnt stand a chance vs superior set of these.
But generaly, if you'd rate your tanks in survival capabilities (with right splashes, like cheesy paladin/monk/bg/rog or w/e levels in it), I'd rate them down something in line of: Monk -100 Fighter -95 Rog -90 Xdd -90
These are the tanks that can acquire really high universal defences. In terms of AC + stats + saves + skills and apart from Xdd, they have access on non dispellable concealment and/or epic dodge. Why is Xdd that high up? Because of the importance of not getting disabled is above everything else in spawns of rating 90+. There 3 rounds of being KD'd will mean your 2.5k hp pariah with 150% imm's and GR running will die.
Defencively geared/built divine tanks, barbs, dwd's (and their quasi chanter) will top out somewhere between 70-85.
Druids, followed by other casters might reach defencive score of 60 something, while being nearly unhittable, they lack stats, where as Pariahs, being basicly immune to damage, will get disabled by nearly everything and inflictions will kill them.
60'ish is also where most damage oriented tanks will rank up. Enough to make core stat checks, core skill checks, cover core mind imms and have either high ac or concealment.
Now, if a run has single spawn that is rated at 80, will it need a tank that can tank that for 5mins? With epics/paragons that spawn will vanish in 30 secs, see Abyss Prince fights. So group of tanks with def score of 60-70 won't have tough time to clean up what is left after initial immute/miracle/eracdicate/ruin/karsus spam. On the contrary, that group propably would prefer some 50-rated tanks that deals up massive single target damage instead.
So basicly there isnt much of a point to build high def chars unless you plan to dual box solo, thou even in that case, 2 casters with both using bbod is often better than 1 caster + MMoD. Although, Raj has showed to some of us how effective sorc + chanter is in dualboxing, but this is only when chanter can tank it. I once joined Raj on a Cania run that he was (succesfully) soloing and witnessed his chanter struggle vs some KD checks of paragons, getting killed in what seemed to me, very basic spawn, barely difficulty of 25-30. Now, Raj is - that I'm awere of, behind all this "chanter hype" and when his chanter dies vs somewhat basic hell spawn, I definetly wouldn't go and say that Chanters are defencively next to none.
I'm not saying that OP's deadly 8 is bad or inaccurate list, but he gives his tank's too much defencive credit, when actually those are top utility tanks, not the best defencive ones, by far. Now, they can tank 97% of mod content, in big masses and for long durations, but when you add those 3% that'll disable them, even the lemures would likely melt them down fast (this is because lemures do high pos damage that most tanks dont cover all that well). Unless, you rely on your party to immute/miracle/eracdicate/ruin/karsus and make them disappear before you die.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 9:07:32 GMT
Nice post fallen - good points. My Deadly 8 are as you say influenced very heavily by personal experience of HG.
Others have mentioned their favourite classes/toons and everyones list would be slightly different.
As you correctly indentify my tank choices are self/party buffers. There is alot to be said for a tank that can solo the hardest spawns (I have not seen your monk in action, it sounds impressive) but for me if that is all they can do they don't make my Top 8 list at the moment. I have seen several Warchanter's in action now including Raj's and they are just so useful I would not myself feel comfortable recommending Monk over that class. (I have played about 4 different types of monk now). Maybe when the new areas come in this will be the most valuable asset for a tank again who knows. I chose on the bases of overall party utility and self sufficiency as during low server population times I feel this makes them stand out. Paladin is my slightly more interchangeable one and could be replaced by any number in the middle group as some have mentioned.
Kratlin
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 22:33:32 GMT
Exactly. You can make an "effective" build with just about any class (and even the quasis!) that can contribute to the party, even if it doesn't top the logs. And no, I'm not suggesting that being a log leader isn't fun, just that you shouldn't always let that guide your build choices. Besides, sometimes that "fun to play" build turns out to be a log leader too, in which case you've killed two Drocs with one Perpetual Nature's Spite. To be perfectly honest, I am not even sure the possibilities have been exhausted for every possible build of every class. Especially with the most recent updates. I think the more different builds people try, the more "gold" that will be occasionally struck.
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Post by buddhamind on Sept 12, 2013 23:01:52 GMT
To be perfectly honest, I am not even sure the possibilities have been exhausted for every possible build of every class. Especially with the most recent updates. I think the more different builds people try, the more "gold" that will be occasionally struck. Yeah I can think of one right off the top of my head that hasn't been made yet. I haven't built it because I don't think it would be an improvement. But perhaps I should crunch the numbers and see what comes out.Edit: nevermind someone already made it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2013 9:17:07 GMT
Would definitely swap Barbarian and Paladin on the list didn't think about that until Para's post mostly neglected to notice Barb wasn't up top and was willing to entertain the idea of a Paladin being amazing but thinking on it a Paladin is still very squishy 2 Hander a Rapier Wit CoT is still a much stronger 2 Hander than a Paladin on and other than a 2 Hander Rapier Wit paladin I can't think of any solid 2 Hander Paladin since they lack the soak of a CoT and require CHA to cover the AC or must go robed w/ a Monk splash and that would be a better Dex Dual Wielder as they would still struggle for AC as a STR toon and again a CoT version would stand out more. Im not trying to tear down your list but thinking it over that is how I see it. I have seen Paradoom's Battle Druid, I refuse to call them Stormlord as I don't view them as a quasiclass, and it is frightening how much damage his outputs I can't recall the class spread or anything and don't know if its posted to see what it "cost" him when compared to mine. I will say for my own Battle Druid damage took a sharp jump up with L72 as that is when it got Weaponspren which is pretty much designed for Battle Druids if you ask me. Missed this post - good to see you are still around Yoj (get that RL sorted and come do some runs !). I agree it's slightlyly misleading to call a Pally a 'soak' tank. Someone mentioned 'resists' tank which probably better describes them. I will make an edit. Barbs are undoubtably great tanks, I love mine and he packs a good punch but when I started partying in higher demi count groups I really noticed how ackward it is to change weapons to deal with the different healing para mobs. Whole rounds pass as you change from medium to large and then back to medium. Get a couple of paras in a mob and you can spend most of the spawn useless. It's just a personal bugbear it may not bother other players as much but thats why I did not put them in my Top 8. Other than that I mostly agree with the comments about them in general. Kratlin
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