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Post by Paradoom on Nov 12, 2013 0:33:06 GMT
Honestly who would realy use it over a longer period of time? It is just way to shabby and looking at the armors other casters get I thought of some ideas to improve it:
For caster bards - Add +1 dc to level 6 and below spells. or -Add +1 Spellpen.
Both options would help caster bards, though they are way more in the need of DC than actual spellpen.
For tank and caster bards: -Add +2 to strength and dexterity checks (or +4 to str alone). Since bards are generally forced to also be sturdy and tanky (caster or not), that would help them alot to do that job. The aggro they draw with the epics and bluff/taunt/persuade is just too much for any tank to overwrite and wanting it or not they have to stand up to the mobs.
Consider also: with this armor you will not receive the 85% conceal from displacement. This forces one into using ethereal visage, narrowing the already squeezing spellchoices on bards. So not just a free upgrade to the class/armor.
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Post by buddhamind on Nov 12, 2013 12:03:10 GMT
In my opinion the worst thing about this armor is that it does not provide the displacement bonus that you get with Aria, Echoes, or Chorus. You could add just about anything you like and I still wouldn't choose it over one of those three. Add in the same kind of displacement bonus and I would consider using it as an alternative. Consider this: - With displacement, Aria/Echoes/Chorus, and a +15 BUR shield, you can hit 130-140 AC, with 85% concealment, and higher % immunity.
- With EV, Bulwark or other robes, and a compatible shield (e.g. Ur-ward), you get approximately 110-120 AC (it's been a while since I checked though), with 85% concealment, lower % immunity. The other benefits you get from EV can be obtained by gear (level 6 spell immunity and 30/+13 soak).
Lower AC and immunities to get level 6 spell imm and 30/+13 soak? No thanks
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Post by Yojimbo on Nov 12, 2013 13:22:03 GMT
With a bonus to DC and maybe a few tweaks I would consider it over the Uro armor but the other two would still win over it.
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Post by Paradoom on Nov 12, 2013 16:00:07 GMT
Hmm I forgot about the limitation of conceal when you wear a shield with gv. And the shields that allow it, are completely useless to a bard. I would like to see it get the improved conceal added as well, but I wanted to suggest some other stuff, because that alone ain't enough to make it a serious consideration as a gear piece. It would make it useable at least though. But that would still just make it a temporary armor, until you get either the hell or abyss bard armor. And the limits of the set stuff is annoying to no end, since you cannot add augs or randomize them.
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Post by buddhamind on Nov 12, 2013 16:21:27 GMT
Yeah with EV you have to use something like Ur-Ward, the Dis set shields, or the Asmo shield, instead of one of the better +15 BUR shields like Arcadian Fire. The Asmo shield is not bad actually-- I had forgotten about it earlier.
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Post by Yojimbo on Nov 12, 2013 18:15:00 GMT
Let is auto extended EV so it is something different yet with a function bonus
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Post by Enius the White on Nov 12, 2013 18:29:28 GMT
The one big advantage that Bulwark does have, is that it is not a set drop. This of course means that, like any BUR, randomized versions can (very rarely) become outstanding items, and I'm sure that there are a few out there by now. Then pop an ideal aug on top, and it can probably get pretty interesting.
That said, the displacement bonus from the set armors is, indeed, a very significant perk to overcome.
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Post by Yojimbo on Nov 12, 2013 18:37:20 GMT
I just hate to see the answer be to make it the same as the set armor I would rather see something that serves as an real alternative option.
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Post by kaezar on Nov 13, 2013 0:29:57 GMT
Err, just to clarify, you ppl did notice the Bulwark is a robe, not light armor, right?
As such it doesn't need the displacement mod, just use ethereal visage and an appropriate caster shield to get full EV bonus. Further, as a robe it is meant more for full dexer bards, I think, that for the currently in vogue utility or cha bards.
Take care kaezar
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Post by FunkySwerve on Nov 13, 2013 2:08:29 GMT
Kaez had the final word on this. It's worth saying, however, that this: I just hate to see the answer be to make it the same as the set armor I would rather see something that serves as an real alternative option. is generally the approach I prefer to take. Homogeneity is, while easier to balance, also far less interesting, as it presents fewer factors to consider in gearing decisions. Funky
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Post by Yojimbo on Nov 13, 2013 20:08:52 GMT
One of the greatest reasons for the other 3 armors is that they allow you to use Displacement instead of EV which to me the biggest benefit is not having to know the EV spell and allowing my to have a different spell on L5 which you likely only have 4 known spells on that level so the selection is important. Those other 3 armors rendering EV obsolete permit you to take something else that might be more worthwhile to you and/or the party on that level. That is the biggest thing that you must compete with so even a pure DEX bard could easily decide to sacrifice the AC bonus of full DEX mod in order to keep spell options open. Then when you try and compare to the Hell and Abyss armors those also have properties that improve the functionality of Bard or Curse Song while I would think the Hell and Abyss armors should remain superior in some aspect it needs to be that the Bulwark can be on par or superior while avoiding some simple mimicry tricks.
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Post by buddhamind on Nov 14, 2013 1:47:16 GMT
Err, just to clarify, you ppl did notice the Bulwark is a robe, not light armor, right? As such it doesn't need the displacement mod, just use ethereal visage and an appropriate caster shield to get full EV bonus. Yep I realize it's a robe, the issue is that we don't think it's a decent alternative to the light armors. Granted I don't have a dexer bard, but I highly suspect that even those builds prefer the light armors. As-is, I don't know of any players that use it. If it has a niche use then cool, that's fine, but I suspect that it doesn't even have that. Of course there are higher priority things to spend zots on, as well, so I view this as mostly an academic discussion.
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Post by Raj on Nov 14, 2013 1:55:47 GMT
That armor is a legacy item since when competitive bard builds were totally different, anyway just because it has some bard slots it doesn't make it a exclusive bard item, obviously needs some uber randomization to compete with other robes for melee toons.
There're way worse items to discuss, anyway the main issue with such robe is that dex bards are quite lackluster, and even then they'd use dim mak over it, so think of suggestions to improve its useful to melee builds (Yoj as usual has no clue when suggesting to autoextend a turn-based spell duration or thinking bards have too many good spells at 5 and too few at 3...).
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Post by Yojimbo on Nov 14, 2013 2:26:56 GMT
You can know more L3 spells and I do not have any real clue of an idea to suggest I merely threw out one idea that hit me with out even researching the spell. I did do minor research on the bit about spell selection as a Bard will typically only have 4 known L5 spells while having 5 known L3 making the option to drop a L5 though I did neglect to see just what spells are L3 and even neglected to see what level spell Displacement is.
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Post by Vichya on Nov 14, 2013 8:33:40 GMT
The best thing about that armor is that it isn't restricted to bards.
My Staffmaster uses one of them since it's a convenient source of physical damage resistance.
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