Newish player - Caster Cleric or Druid?

[Deleted]

Hi all,

I'm pretty new to HG, still on my first toon which is using the Shaolin Thugbear open build (dex pure monk), currently just under level 50.

I was planning to reincarnate it into a slightly different build, but now its occuring to me that it might be better to build something thats a bit more useful on proper runs, a caster - I'm a very experienced NWN player and definitely prefer playing casters, I only chose not to start with one because I know the server is complex and theres a lot of know-how in terms of prioritising spells on targets etc. But now I've seen how friendly the community is and I'm pretty confident I would learn it fast enough to be a USEFUL party member.

So theres a huge amount of arcane casters around but I don't see as many divine casters (less interested in playing a Bard tbh...), so I am leaning on choosing either a Druid or a caster Cleric. Does anyone have any recommendations on which of these are more useful for high level parties? (ie: whichever is less common on runs, so I could actually fill a gap of sorts - I know both are useful)

What is the 'standard' build for these? I notice a lot of the builds on the forum are a bit old, are they still valid or is there more of a tendency to minimise splash-classes now?
I have the budget for a UR subrace, or is it worth sticking to my Bugbear until I can afford a BUR one? (How much do those usually cost?)

Thanks for reading!

PS. I've read most of the threads that talk about how to play casters (especially divine) on HG in general, but any additional/less obvious tips would be appreciated!

[Yojimbo]

I find Druid to be an easier to build and play caster type myself also with level 50 as an option you can unlock and use Secret and UR subraces though for Druid I like Kenku(caster) or Thri-Kreen(melee). The Thri-Kreen I have posted a build using it and it has done very well for me and covers the primary reason for needing a Druid very well. I am not sure the best UR subrace for a caster Cleric but some that look to fit are: Stargazer, Fallen Angel, or even Kenku and I am sure there are more but those to me would be best bets. The BUR subs are much rarer now than they once were and I think you can do very well with just Secret and UR subraces for a Cleric or Druid.

[Hercules]

Hi and welcome to HG.
My first toon in here was a Ploder. I started up with Mino ( which it better for a battlecleric), moved on to Fallen Angel and then to bur race (Half Cel)

I would def, wait until I hit lvl 50 and by a Fallen angel/Kenku book if I were like you.
There is a huge difference between open race and UR

There is a endless discussion between pure ( for more SR) or splash
I would go 38 cleric / 1 ranger / 1 monk. I am using this build myself and I have a ton of fun with it.
I would choose evil cleric, and make sure you get Necro for Hearbane, Destruction, Drain and some other neat spells.
Evo is a no brainer for implodes.
you can see this build for ideas (see section 2.2. the Angel of Death -- Samael.
Rain even posted the kenku version under the spell selection and tips and hints all cleric caster should read.

Rain's Evil Cleric Ploder


hope you enjoy !


cheers
Herc

[chainlink]

Basically access to a BUR subrace will give you one more Epic and one more DC (assuming you maxed your primary stat with a +4 or +5 race originally) and marginally more build flexibility. You won't be disappointed with a Fallen Angel ploder (or a drowner/stoner if you make a druid). No lev ring requirement makes this race a load easier to play in a lot of LL areas especially places like Oinos where there are a several critters that like to death drop you.
Once you get a BUR subby don't worry too much about it not being the perfect one as you can make a max DC divine build with a few of them (Half-Celestial, Drow Noble, Sidhe, Rilmani & Anarch all have +6 Wis for instance) then reincarnation won't cost you the extra book as you can just make a sideways move when you get the perfect race you want.
Going pure gives you more spell pen/best spell benefits at the cost of ac/saves/other benefits but these are difficult to specify without knowing exactly what you want to do.
FA is probably still the most valuable UR race though so might be expensive/difficult to obtain, it's the only one I don't have spares of in -HC- play as there are always candidates to use it if I find one.

[Raj]

Hi, glad there's still some good minded not-selfish newbie around

Go for the UR race, as with the current droprate aiming for a BUR is a luck shot, and the good ones almost never get sold; joining hell+ runs with a open subrace with the sole intent of being lucky in the split until you win a BUR yourself creates a bad reputation as well, when the upgrade to UR is quite cheap nowadays (waiting 3 months for another reinc shouldn't bother you, it's not a lot compared to the chances of finding the right subrace, and for most divine caster builds a fallen angel/kenku/stargazer version is close to perfect).

All the druid builds on the board are outdated, while cleric ones didn't change much even after PL introduction.

Honestly, both classes are going to introduce you to successful high level runs (read: runs that actually start) so it's a lot about personal preference.

As a cleric, you have better chances to destroy the fodder enemies (high dc implosion, lot of slots for hearbane/destruction), and you provide huge savedrop (prayer+battletide) and good party support (restores, heals, and girdle/iof epics quite mandatory for the standard builds); your first build should be a evil 39/1 or a 39/1/1, because you lack the proper gear/mod knowledge to benefit the most from a pure build.
Try to fit necro/div/evo/ench/trans foci, at the expense of ruin (anything you can ruin you can kill anyway with a standard cleric spell) and empowered spells (mostly useful for blade barriers in aboleths, empowered destructions for hell bosses and one more tier of heartbanes at 6, but in general you'll benefit more from a 5th epic).

As a druid, you provide the much needed SR drop (nature's balance) against the big boys who usually have spell resistance in the 86-90 range, you still have great ways to deal against fodder (drown, cast in stone, crumble, fod) and you have ways to deal respectable damage to things you can't ista (remember to max lore and take empowered spells, the posted builds are all outdated because they were wrote before a lot of lore-based druid spells got recently introduced); evo/trans foci are a must haves, try to fit necro and then spare one can be pretty much anything but for your first trip to high level areas conj is the most newbie friendly choice. There's not much need for abj since NB doesn't allow a save anymore, and in order to benefit the most from that focus for other spells you need leg/paragon focus, so can skip that, for now (there're quite many good variants for abyss-abo focused druids so you can have diff foci, the evo/trans/necro/conj is proly the easier for your first caster and hells anyway).

Back to general guidelines, I'd say cleric is easier to master, and performs better in weak, more-tank oriented groups (where after killing in few rounds the low-SR fodder it focus in restore-heal support while tanks bash the big guys), while druid makes runs take a fraction of the time if the party main dps are casters and you need the easy sr drop and added firepower. Both classes have quite game breaking epic spells, but usually druid is a must in order to run Nessus (most parties won't survive the boss fight w/o immutable force), where cleric's miracle is a nice panic button overall.

Having two clerics or two druids in (good) party is usually overkill, but way better than having one more tank; still, if you're worried about gap-filling, I notice druids being quite rarer, and then there's the issue of clerics being quite hampered by the lack of a druid mate against paragon enemies in hells/abyss (SR definitely reaches silly high values), while a druid w/o a cleric doesn't perform best (lack of save dropping abilities) but is still very effective.

So well, my vote goes to 'play a druid', but is a close call; feel free to ask me in-game about more detailed tips, forum population is lot friendly but sometime out of sync with the module evolution (definitely no offense to the two above me )

[magecat]

I found this to be a very good build to learn Druids on:

highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/9421/storm-38-druid-pal-monk

It might be a bit dated, but the foundation is good as a learning piece.

[buddhamind]

Definitely get your open subrace character to 50 or 60 and start accumulating UR and BUR subraces. Once you make your new druid or cleric, don't worry too much about the build itself because you won't need a 100% current, end-game optimized build until you hit at least level 60; instead, focus on rapid progression through Pre-LL and LL areas.

Also, if you have a choice between a decent UR subrace and a bad BUR subrace, choose the BUR. Reincarnating to a different one in the same tier is easy, but upgrading a tier is much harder.

If you haven't already, check out wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Races and keep an eye out for any race with at least +4 wisdom.

[Raj]

So basically what they are suggesting to you is play a bad toon, get it dragged through runs and hope not to build a bad reputation.

[Torin]

I would level to 50 and buy a UR subraces in the market (Treant right now for 100k, gives +5 WIS) or via !bazaar. At level 50 that should be affordable.

[Deleted]

Hi everyone, thanks for all the feedback! I've decided to go for Druid, I got my hands on the UR Fallen Angel last night (+5 WIS, +2 CHA), which I think is as good as I can get for a while, so keep an eye out for 'Poliwhirl the Druid'!

I've done a lot of reading about Druid building/playing so far, but you raise some interesting points TheRajah, and you're definitely correct that a lot of the info is outdated! My build plan was roughly as follows, based roughly off the Inquisitor of the Balance build by Rain:

Build-wise I am thinking that the SR/DC isn't as important on Druids as say Arcane casters, because Nature's Balance penetrates - so I am leaning on adding splash classes, 1 Monk seems a no-brainer and for the second one I am thinking Paladin for saves (also Fallen Angel gets +2 CHA -> +1 all saves) instead of Bard (though I'm not sure how important UMD is).

Starting stats (Fallen Angel) - I think these are pretty solid (max WIS), and probably won't change much
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 23
CHA 10

As for feats, basically you get a total of 26 from 1-60; I had INITIALLY planned to spend them as follows
26 feats:
4 - Legendary Penetration
4 - Legendary focus (Transmutation)
3 - Epic Focus (Necromancy)
3 - Epic Focus (Conjuration)
3 - Epic Focus (Evocation)
0 - Epic Focus (Abjuration) [from Tome]
1 - Greater Ruin
1 - Extend Spell
7 - Great Wisdom

Which gets me 5x Epic spells, but has to cut back on Wisdom a little.

So from what you've said, I'm thinking now I should cut out Abjuration (what spells does this effect?) and put one of the other Epic Focus's onto a Tome, which free up 3 feats - these could then go into 2x Great Wisdom to get the max value for a Fallen Angel (2 points less than the BUR Rilmani), and the final feat could go into Empower Spell as you mentioned (or should I replace Extend Spell with this? Not sure exactly how to kit the spellbook so I can't imagine which metamagics are most important for flexibility/power). Alternatively if I was to only take one metamagic, it leaves space for a saves feat (probably Reflex?).

Finally, skills-wise I was going to do this;
Animal Empathy 54 (All spares)
Concentration 63
Discipline 43 [Monk Sink]
Heal 63
Parry 63
Spellcraft 50 [2x Greater Ruin]
Tumble 40 [Monk Sink]

Though you raise the issue of Lore, and I am not sure how important Animal Empathy is (what exactly does this do? The Wiki mentions it plays a role in summon scaling...?). I can either swap out all the Animal Empathy --> Lore, or I could take 2 more INT (either taking 2 points from DEX, or CON - I would think CON is more free to remove points from, since the point of AC + 1 Reflex save is probably more important than +1 Fortitude and the bit of HP, right?) and get a whole other skill. Alternatively I could still increase my INT and max Lore, and then swap some of the Animal Empathy points into Craft Armor (40) for +1 AC.


Can someone run through exactly how important each of the schools are for Druid? Is it worth cutting 1 DC to get another Epic Druid Spell?

Other random note - what about taking Epic Mage Armor? (since I believe Druid has to be somewhat near the front-lines).


Thanks again for all the replies, please read through these building questions and let me know if I've missed anything!

[Enius the White]

Aside from the crucial epics (shunt and immute), NB is the key function of an end-game Druid. This is no longer DC based, so it lends well to a non-BUR subby. Drown, crumble, stoning, elemental swarms, SoV, etc, all benefit from max DC, but are not as crucial in a standard party with arcanes (who can do handle most mobs easily once you drop the SR where needed). Fonts are nice for restoring your tanks. The tricky part of a druid can be getting all the high SR nasties greeen without getting KDed, or worse. This need for close contact, albeit short duration, survivability is why splashes are still common for Druids. The Monk ac alone is huge as long as you keep casting to avoid getting flatfooted. Pally splashes are still around, but substantially less desirable now at the top end, because of the +5 saves in paragon levels (as well as the host of CL and other benefits from non-splash, including no xp penalties). Pure, or just Monk splash with CL ego item to get back to 60 is probably ideal in the end, but you will probably want pally for the saves until then. Just too many save based ways to get insta-killed by the very mobs that you need to get close to for landing NB. Aside from restoring frequently, a key "secret" to surviving is not to die (ok, that sounds stupid), loosing all the sweet epic party buffs until the next rest (leading to multiple deaths, and that wth? is happening feeling).

Clerics are often called ploders because they are expected to do this well, especially for a bunch of key "no hit" mobs, so DC will really count. Many of these key targets, fortunately, have no SR. As long as the KB/splitting stuff goes "pop" fast, your party will be happy enough to point out the other stuff as you go. F. Angel, with +5 Wis can be very good. More than ever, you can make up for the lower non-BUR subby main stat with paragon evo. If you cover your immunities with gear and keep your gate up, so you can keep mobs in your B.Tide, and remember to prayer, you can tear up many runs, right down to the shallow-mid hells. Aside from plodes, Clerics also command a couple of the other most powerful offensive weapons in the end game: extended G.restoration (removes all hells pens), and IoF (some will disagree on this one, but I have yet to hear a tank complain . Defensively, Miracle is as great as ever (maybe more-so with the Divine Intervention amy change). Remember that it can be a tactical tool, scattering mobs, as well. Eradicate is very useful and enjoyable, and together with heartbane, has made the Necro cleric a beast, and all but eliminated pally splashes on Clerics.

Torin's Treant idea is sound. With BC: Druid, you get a very nice xp boost . 25% fire vuln is easy to overcome with randomized gear and/or augs from the aug shop. Just remember to FOM at all times, or the slow can really be annoying when getting in and out for your NB.


edit: Ooops, I was typing this post while you posted yours ssj2poliwhirl, thus the disconnect.

[Raj]

Nov 28, 2013 19:03:15 GMT @ssj2poliwhirl said:

cut

You got it almost right; yes, cut abj (it affects fonts and dispel but only decent at leg-paragon level and not crucial for your first build, plus fonts are okay even w/o abj foci if placed smart) and replace with the last 2x wis and empowered. Keep extend, it helps micromanage the spellbook.

DC and SP are crucial on druid like they are on all casters. Treant is terrible, 20% bonus xp doesn't balance 100% more sucking speed, nor the loss of dexterity and levitation; if you had no fallen angel it could have had some merits but as it is, enjoy being the proud owner of the best UR subrace.

You are right about dex being more important than con (but not for the ac, cuz ac on druid is already stellar, it's mostly to avoid being disabled by some end game checks), and int needs a bump to max lore; animal ampathy is okay, it helps you level up and can find some nice pets to dominate even in high level areas (check wiki, under animals, anything that is not mind immune) so keep it, it has a minor effect on some spells and you never know when it could receive a bump.

Honestly I'd give up ruin for a legendary focus in order to free a paragon level feat (basically the tradeoff is lose ruin for +2 in a useful school or a paragon spell of choice, and paragon spell > ruin), you'll quickly realize most players suck at this game and think ''wow ruin is a must have it istakills everything'' while in practice it doesn't istakill anything that doesn't get istakilled in some other cheaper way, and dropping it would free some spellcraft as well. It's not a big deal anyway, it's certainly more useful on druid than on cleric or mage, and can always reinc later on when you'll learn how much more important are regular spells.

Basically, what changed since the last introduction of new druid spells, is the need of lore/empowered to get respectable dmg output so you can be effective against most things druids of the past could only scratch: bombardment/elemental swarm were (and are) quite powerful for LL play and don't require you to know what mob takes what element so you look like doing something when you spam those, but they get no lore boost so they fall behind sov/empowered fissure/firestorm for hell/abyss. The latest edits to poison, and the usefulness of maggots in abyss made necromancy essential because there're many mobs to istakill with those cheap level 3 slots, and the epic/paragon spell are powerful. In hells a old-concept druid like those ones posted still work good, because most of druid job is nb, drown, stone then crumble (all transmutation), but you need a different approach for the other lvl60 areas where 90%+ of things are immune to stoning/drown, and is nice to not having to rely on some other caster to dispatch things when the population is low (so raising evo/nec foci you can do most of cleric/mage istakil duty as well).

[ScrewedUp]

.

[Raj]

*applause*


Anyway Buddha suggestion is valid if you can get a ''decent'' BUR and you want to play a caster, sometime it can be better than using the best UR available; example, using pharlan (+4cha/wis, but mostly aimed at battle clerics and paladins due to +str) in order to make a sorcerer or cleric is not a total bad idea, dc isn't nerfed compared to UR version and it means that once you loot a radiance/celestial you can free reincarnate.

Alternative, once you have many toons but crap subraces (not recommended, it's better to focus on few toons at time for higher xp and better gear), you can ''park'' them at reincarnation, upgrading them with two copies of a cheap BUR book (spelljammer/furchin/brownie pretty much get tossed at people in docks) and have it ready for a bur to bur free next reincarnation.


edit: damn screwedup, I was the only one reading your pre-edit post?

[buddhamind]

Nov 28, 2013 17:47:53 GMT Raj said:

So basically what they are suggesting to you is play a bad toon, get it dragged through runs and hope not to build a bad reputation.

That's not what I meant. What I mean is that 9 out of 10 builds on the forums are going to be fine for leveling through LLs and probably Hells too. Worrying about minutiae like whether to take Abjuration and/or Greater Ruin on a cleric, for example, is not really worth the time investment at this point. Unless he runs into just a complete failure build, that is, which I suppose is possible.

Spending the time to level up a Fallen Angel is hardly worth it if you get a single Furchin book six weeks later.