|
Post by chirality on Jan 28, 2014 21:19:22 GMT
If you'd like I can take my Zeny monk to the Hellgate arena and test it with a variety of different numbers of enemies a number of times to see just how often it occurs. That'd probably be helpful if you wish to document this issue in detail and propose an alternate mechanic/improvement As far as I know no one else has really cared enough to bother performing some detailed and informational experiments to discover what patterns may exist; if it's as simple as you claim (the 3 enemies thing) and this is consistently true then perhaps this could assist in conceiving a solution. However this: I think, generally speaking, the bug only occurs if you are using Whirlwind Attack against exactly three enemies, from what I've read and tested. Doesn't seem to line up with this: I know recently I was attempting to use it on a lowbie fighter and was generally able to avoid the bug if I only used it against large numbers of enemies, but even then I occasionally encountered the bug and needed to relog. Which is it? Either it occurs when WWAing exactly 3 enemies; or it doesn't. You seem to be saying that you read it should only happen vs. 3 enemies, yet you and everyone else who's ever used it--yes I think at some point or another we've all ran to the graveyard and WWAd zombies --had it occur vs. any number of enemies, then there's really no point in continuing to mention the 3 enemies thing; either it happens regardless of how many mobs there are, or it only happens when there's 3. Even if it "generally" "only" happens vs. 3 enemies, if it still happens vs. other amounts, then it's not much use as a rule or unifying factor. Anyway; It's been mentioned in the past more than once I think--why not just remove the specialty WWA improvements, and replace them with similar or even identical abilities that simply don't involve WWA? It's broken but is it even worth fixing; is it worth trying to re-invent the wheel? Just my opinion of course and I mean no disrespect; in fact I respect your desire and energy on proposing changes but my gut instinct = ignore it; no one except WMs need the feat; unlike the other red-headed tank feat stepchild Cleave, it's not a near-necessity for an entire type of tanks (anyone wanting OC/DC via chosen feats); it's just worthless and the only reason anyone cares about it in the first place is because we can see these tantalizing special abilities when we read class documentation. Just do away with it, put it in a box and forget it, and accept that the game engine has some shortcomings that probably aren't worth fixing this long into the life of the module. If the fact that WMs must choose a useless/unusable feat is a balance issue then maybe the feat itself could be edited to grant some other passive/static bonus after X WM levels or something? Sure, it'd be great to see some improvement (your ideas are not without merit), but what I'd really like to see is basically exactly what you said (tying to some simtool command and useable like an 'action') except without worrying about WWA. If enough people want it and consider it high-priority (per "new update strategy"), then sure: give these classes a useable form of these cool options we can read about but never use. But if it's worth the zots in the first place, it seems more attractive to attempt implementing them as immediately and inherently functional, rather than smashing knees on the broken WWA stumbling block. (again, just my opinion, I don't mean to troll you)
|
|
|
Post by Twilight Semner on Jan 28, 2014 21:26:42 GMT
No worries, I certainly didn't take it as trolling and in fact you bring up plenty of good points. I believe the reason for the seeming inconsistency you referenced is probably to do with the reasons I listed before regarding why the risk is greater than the reward etc. It's entirely possible that I thought I was within range of enough enemies, but wasn't, or auto-attacked killing a fourth before whirlwinding, or a host of other reasons. That bit you quoted was more or less just my justification for why it might be helpful to do some further testing. I'm fairly certain that it's 3 enemies that causes the bug, but those times I've accidentally given myself the bug without paying enough attention to the circumstances give me just enough doubt to want to make certain it's the case.
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Jan 28, 2014 21:33:40 GMT
Fair enough; an exhaustive proof would likely be a pretty time-consuming and difficult endeavour to tackle, as it'd probably involve carefully controlling spawns and reviewing log output. Maybe you could bug some DM with time on their hands to spawn things for you in a controlled experiment? As much as it may not have sounded so, I'm actually interested to know if this 3 enemy thing is true or not. I suppose it's not as hard-to-believe as I may have made it out to be (yep that's the type of thing I say when I'm worried about being wrong!)
|
|
|
Post by Twilight Semner on Jan 29, 2014 3:26:57 GMT
Well due to the controlled nature of the Hellgate arena, where you are able to choose the difficulty of the mobs and their quantity it shouldn't be too difficult. I can just have them kill me if I bug and then proceed to log out once I'm back in the Tournament Arena. What I plan on doing is something along the lines of the following: - Test WWA with 0 mobs in a neutral environment, like the test dummy area, using it 10x each at 1-10 consecutive uses then attempting to attack the test dummy. - Do the same experiment within melee range of a single test dummy with the same number of attempts. - Do the same experiment in the Hellgate arena with 2 mobs and then successively increase the number of enemies, probably up to 10, until I've gathered enough results. Certainly not exhaustive, but should give me enough data to give a reasonable conclusion as to how and when the bug occurs so that I can share it on this thread. Now, finding the time to do so is another matter. But I'm not fond of Oinos, so I'll need *something* to do in the wee hours of the night.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 29, 2014 3:37:35 GMT
I think testing is unnecessary, as it doesn't relate to a fix, unless acaos works up a fix.
Funky
|
|
|
Post by Twilight Semner on Jan 29, 2014 3:45:35 GMT
Right, it was more for informational purposes for those who might want to give the current WWA a try with a giant "Use at your own risk" asterisk. But hey, I don't mind saving myself the time.
|
|
|
Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 29, 2014 17:09:21 GMT
There is a scripted workaround at the NWNX Boards which limits time between uses of the feat. Seems to only produce the bug, then, when the player logs out while whirlwinding. Just for your awareness.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 29, 2014 19:43:47 GMT
There is a scripted workaround at the NWNX Boards which limits time between uses of the feat. Seems to only produce the bug, then, when the player logs out while whirlwinding. Just for your awareness. Thanks, I'll add that. Could the first person to read this post please bump it when I get home so it's flagged as new for me? Funky
|
|
|
Post by Torin on Jan 29, 2014 19:45:03 GMT
There is a scripted workaround at the NWNX Boards which limits time between uses of the feat. Seems to only produce the bug, then, when the player logs out while whirlwinding. Just for your awareness. Thanks, I'll add that. Could the first person to read this post please bump it when I get home so it's flagged as new for me? Funky Bump - get home!
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 30, 2014 1:40:12 GMT
Still at work. >< Suckered into reading it. One more, which I swear I won't open out of force of habit. Funky
|
|
|
Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 30, 2014 1:59:50 GMT
ZBump!
There is a "Mark As New" option in your Actions bar, in case you delve in prematurely.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 30, 2014 2:08:30 GMT
ZBump! There is a "Mark As New" option in your Actions bar, in case you delve in prematurely. Thanks for that. And no, I'm definitely home now. Definitely. For sure. 0_0 Funky
|
|
|
Post by tacpilot on Jan 31, 2014 21:42:49 GMT
I think, generally speaking, the bug only occurs if you are using Whirlwind Attack against exactly three enemies, from what I've read and tested. Though I have not done any regimented testing of this, I do have several toons that use WWA. It seems from my experience that the enemy count has no real effect for me. The only time I ever seem to bug is when I miss all targets. I have seen this happen while surrounded by half dozen enemy or more and just had crappy rolls. Missed all targets and was immediately bugged. I know nothing of the code base, or what would be required to fix the issue. However, if the error is truly caused by not striking and enemy, I do have a suggestion. How hard would it be to create some object that is always struck with WWA. Say some invisible enemy that spwns upon WWA with ac 0 and despwns when struck. granted there would be a bit of server over head generated by this approach. Though this may not be a realistic solution, maybe something along these lines can lead to something usable. Though more of a hack than a fix, but may make WWA a more viable feature. Any thoughts ??
|
|