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Post by jeanhelixü on Feb 25, 2014 15:46:45 GMT
Next on the list of useless subraces:
"Half-Excruciarch" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Fighter / BC: Blackguard - STR +6, WIS +2, INT +2, CHA +4, Hide +5, Persuade +5 - Free Feats: Cleave, Divine Might, Great Charisma I/II, Mounted Combat, Alertness - Other: Vile Immunity +10%, Survival: Firewalking
This is useless because Male Solarborn does everything it does, better.
"Solarborn" (secret eXtremely Rare; adds wings) - FC: Paladin / BCs: Champion of Torm, Blackguard - Male: STR +6, WIS +2, INT +2, CHA +4, Persuade +5 - Free Feats (Male and Female): Divine Might, Divine Shield, Extra Smiting, Great Smite I/II, Mounted Combat - Other (Male and Female): Divine Immunity +25%, Survival: Levitation
Same stat spread, but +25% divine which is more useful than 10% vile. Levitation which is more useful than firewalking. Extra smiting which is more useful than Alertness. Great Smite feats are also more commonly used than Great Cha. So honestly I'd just get rid of Half-Exc since Solarborn is useful when you might want Half-Exc *and* has the female option for dex based as well. Half-Exc is just an inferior race inflating the number of XRs.
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Post by Raj on Feb 25, 2014 15:48:18 GMT
edit: was meant as a reply to jean ibixian That one really sux. It's more a issue of large size divine tanks (who the hell came out with such fail build idea? ), because afterall Funky wanted XRs to be a direct upgrade to existing BURs, so Ibixian is going to be the Half-Cloud Giant upgrade. The problem is that the bur subrace is already weak because it's the build concept that doesn't work (or better said, it works worse than a classic medium sized toon) Anyway, the BUR subbie at least adds +6 charisma, making smiting easier to achieve, the +2 on the XR is a bit of a joke. I'd modify as follow: This way it's at least a clear upgrade over the BUR version: same final str considering the feats, so it's +2 charisma, 2 smite feats, 1 must have feat and two next to useless ones in exchange for levitation.
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Post by jeanhelixü on Feb 25, 2014 15:57:22 GMT
Yeah large size divine tanks don't really exist in my experience and they are a fail build. The race is going to be furchin regardless. There's no advantage to a large size divine tank at all, and I don't really think it's worth making a reason for them to exist either. I'd personally rather just delete the race and stop people from building large size divine tanks that invariably suck.
I was trying to point out why it sucks compared to other races though, not as a concept of build.
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Post by jeanhelixü on Feb 25, 2014 16:09:38 GMT
The actual furchin upgrade race for XRs is itself a metaphorical furchin.
"Buomman" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Cleric - STR +6, DEX +2, WIS +4, INT +2, Listen +10 - Free Feats: WF/GWF/EWF: Sling, SF/ESF: Listen - Other: Fast, QLSA: Listen
vs the usual slinger race
Subrace: "Erinyes" (secret Beyond UltraRare; changes Appearance) - FCs: Base Race, Ranger - DEX +6, CON +2, WIS +4, CHA -2 - free feat: Point Blank Shot, free feat: Rapid Shot, free feat: Weapon Focus Longbow, free feat: Epic Weapon Focus Longbow, able to walk on quicksand
You lose Lev, 2 con, and 4 dex in exchange for sf+esf listen, ewf sling, +2 int and +6 strength. Why is the highest stat on the slinger race strength anyways??? Dex or wis are the stat they rely on for AB. I would swap the dex and strength scores.
"Buomman" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Cleric - STR +2, DEX +6, WIS +4, INT +2, Listen +10 - Free Feats: WF/GWF/EWF: Sling, SF/ESF: Listen - Other: Fast, QLSA: Listen
This would make it a much more appealing race in general.
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Post by Raj on Feb 25, 2014 16:12:43 GMT
Eeeh who knows, maybe can make some unique mercurial sword with fat damage and inflict on hit Else large toons don't really deal more damage than medium ones, there's no damage boost from size just strength matters (and you actually lose ac/ab being large...). While we wait for a incentive in making large toons, I posted what I think is a direct upgrade to the base race. Edit: I like the buomman change as well, makes sense.
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Post by jeanhelixü on Feb 26, 2014 5:05:25 GMT
Another race that bothers me and many others: Exc, Laser, Rajah, Archmage to name a few.
"Kaorti" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Sorcerer - CON +2, INT +2, CHA +8 - Free Feats: Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Great Charisma I/II, Armor Skin - Other: Extra use of Greater Ruin at level 40, Armored Mage (no spellfail in light or med armor)
The bonuses on this race are terrible. Most sorcerers no longer take Greater Ruin at all, because so many mobs are immune to it that it no longer serves much purpose, its dc has lagged terribly behind compared to dc of other spells increasing, and a limited use per day ability versus increasing the effectiveness of your other spells that you can use more often is a big hurtle for the power of the spell to overcome. The custom epics and paragons tend to overcome that hurdle, but greater ruin simply doesn't. One extra use per day on a feat that we don't take is useless.
Armored Mage is a ridiculous bonus. Armored mage is worthless to a sorcerer because one: sorcerers don't get light and medium armor proficiency unless they paladin splash which most sorcs don't anymore. Two: even paladin splash sorcs do not wear armor; not because of ASF issues, but because Ethereal Visage and Premonition do not work when you wear armor. The extra 7 ac that you gain from medium armor is not nearly as valuable 85% conceal and 50/+15 soak. Further if I was going to give up EV and paladin splash for proficiencies anyways I'd probably go full bore and use an ASF item to wear heavy plate for higher immunities, which this wouldn't help with anyways.
These bonuses aren't useful to the majority of builds even, when the bonuses are supposed to be something generically useful to all the possibilities for the build.
The current best option for XR races for sorcs is
"Half-Djinni" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Sorcerer / BC: Dragon Disciple - DEX +2, INT +2, CHA +8, Lore +8, Persuade +8 - Free Feats: SF/GSF: Evocation, Maximize Spell, Empower Spell - Other: +1 DC on Evocation spells, Survival: Levitation
This costs 2-3 epic feats depending on perspective for 2 pre-epic feats. However you gain 2 Dex over 2 Con, levitation, and +1 dc on evocation spells which is a far superior bonus, as sorcs cast: gust, freezing sphere, chain lightning, dbfb, and thunderclaps which are all of their primary sources of damage output besides RG and flensing. This is more valuable than the difference between 2 great cha and 2 pre-epic feats.
The weakness is further highlighted when compared with the wizard race: "Illumian" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Wizard - DEX +2, CON +2, INT +8 - Free Feats: Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Great Intelligence I/II - Other: +1 DC for spells lvl 0-6
Which gets dex bonus, the best two metamagics, the two great stat feats. So it's short armorskin basically.
Its special bonus is freaking amazing though. Level 0-6 includes most of the valuable evo spells minus dbfb and thunderclap, but gains flensing, enervate, disintegrate, cod, melfs acid arrow, vitriolic sphere, and various disable spells.
I'm aware that currently sorcs are better than wizards, but that balancing is not the object of XR races. Giving sorcs this same bonus is an option. Alternatively they could be given +1 sp as a bonus, given that the chest slot for arcanes tends to be an option between +1 dc 0-6 and +1 sp they are gauged to be roughly equivalent (though I personally always use the +1 sp admittedly). Either +1 sp or 0-6 +1 dc would be generically useful to all the builds.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 26, 2014 6:49:02 GMT
From a building standpoint, I think Kaorti is at least equivalent, if not better, than both of those, if you don't consider the specials. Compared to Half-Djinni it is far superior feat-wise, and compared to Illumian it's as good, or better, depending if you want Armor Skin or not.
You're right, though. Once you throw in the specials, it's no contest. Armored Mage isn't useful. And extra Greater Ruin is only marginally useful by comparison. Considering the superiority of Kaorti's feat spread, I don't think you could justify, balance-wise, giving it a +1 SP or +1 DC to 6 and below (assuming they're equivalent as you've also done), but it definitely needs something of greater overall use. What about something like a 25% chance of channeled spells costing 1 less slot than normal? Or is that not as balanced as my gut tells me?
EDIT: Also, could always just get rid of armor skin (along with the two specials of course) and then you could be better justified in giving it something like +1 SP or +1 DC to 6 and below.
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Post by archmage on Feb 26, 2014 13:43:30 GMT
What is the difference Semner between giving them 4 feats every sorc takes, and 4 feats every sorc takes? The feat spread is not better, and then you throw in levitation and extra DC on evo spells? By all means, toss away armor skin, its worthless. And extra Epic ruin means I would actually have to take Ruin to take advantage and that isn't happening. And the armor specials? Just no, worthless. No chance I pass up on EV. This is not an option.
These two races are not even close to equivalent, but I can wait on Half-Djinni, its just pretty weak that the DSM race is better for sorcs than the sorc race.
Verdant Prince - the choice of divination strikes me as exceedingly odd. I can;t really see me picking up Divination for really 3 spells, even with the free feat as the cost is too high. SF Divination is supplied on the Tia staff so I consider it pretty much a worthless feat whcih to me is a real shame.
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Post by jeanhelixü on Feb 26, 2014 13:45:37 GMT
Keep in mind the feats aren't as superior as you expect. A standard sorc build needs 11 pre epic feats (3 metas, 3x sf, 3x gsf, sp, gsp) and sorcs get 8 pre-epic feats. This means that you need 3 from subrace or from epic feats. With Kaorti you only get 2 pre-epic feats so one of them will have to come out of epic feats. Which means you effectively are getting +1 great cha and armorskin rather than the 2 it first appears.
Getting rid of armorskin would be fine since it's not a generic feat, nor something sorcs tend to take. Some players gear their sorcs defensively and get to 130 ac and for them armorskin is useful though I doubt even they'd give up another epic feat for it. Others play like me with 102 ac and armorskin isn't helpful at all.
Channeled spells having a chance to consume less slots isn't that useful, the XR sorc item suffers the same issues. Sorcerers get bonus slots yes, but not enough to spend 2-4x as many slots per cast on a regular basis, channeling is largely used just on very hard to land spells or to land a first energy drain after which you use energy drain CL instead of channeling. A sorc uses channeling on maybe 2% of their spells. A 25% reduction in channel 1 cost is not going to be enough to change that significantly since sitting at channel 2 even would still drain slots 75% faster and a sorc would go from the last to run out of spells to the first, which is what players play sorcs to avoid. So you're talking about 25% of 2%, for an effective "bonus" of +1 dc and +1 sp on .5% of spell casts.
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Post by Yojimbo on Feb 26, 2014 15:06:54 GMT
I will say in regards to the feats a sorc "needs: you say 3 metas which 3 because I must say I have dropped Maximize from most all my caster builds as it is just not worth it. I can see Silent being on the list and Extended is a must with Empower mainly a must for damage spells otherwise it is a throw away. I will agree that GR could use a bump in DC from PLs to make it keep up a bit other than that the extra use is actually a nice bonus. The armor bonus is cool in a gimmicky kind of way but generally useless unless we get enough Light and Medium armors with good Sorc attributes so that bonus could use a replacement.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 26, 2014 15:53:54 GMT
What is the difference Semner between giving them 4 feats every sorc takes, and 4 feats every sorc takes? The feat spread is not better, and then you throw in levitation and extra DC on evo spells? By all means, toss away armor skin, its worthless. And extra Epic ruin means I would actually have to take Ruin to take advantage and that isn't happening. And the armor specials? Just no, worthless. No chance I pass up on EV. This is not an option. If you reread my post.... You'll see that I said they're only equivalent *until* you include the specials. Four feats every sorc takes was more or less my point to begin with. The feats are "better" if you include armor skin, more or less the same if you don't. I already agreed with the rest of what you said.
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Post by jeanhelixü on Feb 26, 2014 16:17:52 GMT
I will say in regards to the feats a sorc "needs: you say 3 metas which 3 because I must say I have dropped Maximize from most all my caster builds as it is just not worth it. I can see Silent being on the list and Extended is a must with Empower mainly a must for damage spells otherwise it is a throw away. I will agree that GR could use a bump in DC from PLs to make it keep up a bit other than that the extra use is actually a nice bonus. The armor bonus is cool in a gimmicky kind of way but generally useless unless we get enough Light and Medium armors with good Sorc attributes so that bonus could use a replacement. You are never going to use medium armor regardless of stats because of EV. 85% conceal is better than 7 ac by so much it's a joke to even think you could convince a sorc to use it. Maximize is very necessary on a sorc because it allows you to use another level of spell slots for chain lightning and freezing spheres. You never come close to the performance of the top sorcs. Other casters don't need maximize because you can't predict before resting how many spells at each level you will need and so must spread out your desired spells anyways. A sorc that runs out of 8s for empowered spheres can immediately bump to maximize. Though they are better off using maximized to begin with, since they do 14% more damage than empowered (equivalent to around +4 dc on the spells you maximize vs empower in terms of increase in damage), and stepping down to empowered if they begin to run low on slots. GR is a waste of a feat you could use to get an extra spell known spell that you will use dozens of times more than GR. A level 9 for instance has dc68 at max, or 75 for wierds, while GR is capped at 65. Alternatively you could fit an extra Epic Spell Focus with the extra epic feat that an XR race gives and thereby have better dc on banish or pwk without an item. Personally I'd probably take an extra known spell myself instead.
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Post by Yojimbo on Feb 26, 2014 16:40:56 GMT
I haven't done the math in a long time but the calculation I had I believe showed that empowered should result in an average damage value which exceeds the maximized damage value.
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Post by jeanhelixü on Feb 26, 2014 16:47:58 GMT
I haven't done the math in a long time but the calculation I had I believe showed that empowered should result in an average damage value which exceeds the maximized damage value. You fail at math then. The average value on a d6 is 3.5, 1.5*3.5 = 5.25 Max on a d6 is 6. 6 is larger than 5.25. 6/5.25 = 1.142 by 14.2%
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Post by Vichya on Feb 26, 2014 16:52:02 GMT
Empowered can be better than Maximize when the variance of the damage roll is small. For example for combust empower is better, but I think that is also about the only useful for for which it is better.
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