Post by chirality on Mar 14, 2014 1:18:17 GMT
Pharlan is too good, so attempting to argue a subrace improvement which involves "but pharlan..." isn't a solid start.
Still, I'm a bit depressed about Cambion.
The stat spread has no complaints; arguably it's more attractive than pharlan for certain build types, and additionally it looks even better (vs. pharlan) if you consider the minimal value of pharlan +4 wis for a reinc build (or in fact minimal/zero value for some builds, period).
The feat spread has no complaints; it's interesting and funky, and works out fine for some build options, and again is situationally/player choice-ily more attractive than pharlan.
There's a few oddities though that, even admitting pharlan is broken, just don't seem to add up if the intent was to make this subrace competitive (at least a bit) with pharlan (which it does successfully achieve overall but not without some groaning along the way).
First off, it has wings, and is a demon-sired BUR subrace. It's unique in a bad way amongst outsider-blooded-theme BUR subraces in that it has wings yet lacks levitation (in fact what winged BUR of any flavor but has added wings but can't fly? and even wingless ones get levi if it suits the flavor/story rationale, such as Genie or Cloud Giant).
Second, it has 10 + level SR, which is completely useless except for taking an overlevelled toon into lower level zone (not something to be encouraged balance-wise, ever since PLs dropped and this became a contentious theme). Even then it's still only buying a % chance to ignore some spells; take a look at caster SPs across the mod and it's clear that even 75 SR is no better than having saves of 5600; you still fail on high/low rolls. 75 is cool to have but no one would miss it if pharlan lacked it, and pharlan would still be uber; for subs with less SR than that it's even sillier.
I'll admit that Funky pointed out that you have the option to take SR feats to boost this SR.
Unfortunately not only are SR feats really out of the question on just about any build of any race here on HG (certain exceptions I suppose, but nothing really leaps out of the page), but even moreso on super feat- and stat- tight builds/classes such as divine tanks in general (and in particular those which seem to be the point of Cambion--turner? smiter? BK?). And of course there's the meta decision: why would I use a race with crap SR and waste feats on improving SR, when alternate subrace choice like pharlan has 15 + level SR (which is enough to be noticeable but honestly all these SRs is virtually the same deal; overpowered toon for appropriate area is the only time it's even worth noticing; it in no way is a substitute for spell imm when that's necessary.)
I'll avoid a point-by-point analysis with Pharlan since it's pretty obvious that Pharlan wins overall unless you're both PW owner as well as reinc after demi to fully optimize the +2 Cha over Pharlan (while lacking the +4 wis which isn't missed much). Even still, regardless of player's situation or gear, Cambion is still a great race and a competitive choice vs. Pharlan for some fluffy non-meta reasons (such as not looking like a pharlan). Yet all that said, it doesn't make sense to me that the balance argument for cambion comes off as "good stats/feats but it can't be too good so let's not give it levi and it can have fluffy useless SR for lip service to BUR sub needing another racial feature".
I don't mean to insult the cambion creator with such claim, nor am I doing anything but guess what the rationale was; I'm just saying that's how it looks.
Regardless, it's pretty lame and disappointing to have BUR demonspawn divine tank with wings but it can't actually fly; and adding bad SR into the mix starts making it really get pharlan envy (obviously it didn't stop me or anyone else from choosing it over pharlan anyway, but that's a freighted place to start arguing about sub balance).
I don't see any value whatsoever in 10 + level SR. imho even 12, let alone 10 SR is useless and seemingly used for subs that are assumed to be so strong that a fluffy/useless SR feature is added. Even 15 SR doesn't compare with a survival imm let alone a feat.
I'd like to see the SR dropped (losing the fluff that no one cares about anyway isn't an excuse to add power, but then again it WAS added in the first place for SOME reason so likewise removing it should provide SOME breathing room) and levitation added.
Honestly SR seems more prevalent and overly-distributed amongst subs than even levi/wb. So the concept of losing lev in the name of diversity and getting useless SR like 50 other races doesn't make much sense to me.
Still, I'm a bit depressed about Cambion.
The stat spread has no complaints; arguably it's more attractive than pharlan for certain build types, and additionally it looks even better (vs. pharlan) if you consider the minimal value of pharlan +4 wis for a reinc build (or in fact minimal/zero value for some builds, period).
The feat spread has no complaints; it's interesting and funky, and works out fine for some build options, and again is situationally/player choice-ily more attractive than pharlan.
There's a few oddities though that, even admitting pharlan is broken, just don't seem to add up if the intent was to make this subrace competitive (at least a bit) with pharlan (which it does successfully achieve overall but not without some groaning along the way).
First off, it has wings, and is a demon-sired BUR subrace. It's unique in a bad way amongst outsider-blooded-theme BUR subraces in that it has wings yet lacks levitation (in fact what winged BUR of any flavor but has added wings but can't fly? and even wingless ones get levi if it suits the flavor/story rationale, such as Genie or Cloud Giant).
Second, it has 10 + level SR, which is completely useless except for taking an overlevelled toon into lower level zone (not something to be encouraged balance-wise, ever since PLs dropped and this became a contentious theme). Even then it's still only buying a % chance to ignore some spells; take a look at caster SPs across the mod and it's clear that even 75 SR is no better than having saves of 5600; you still fail on high/low rolls. 75 is cool to have but no one would miss it if pharlan lacked it, and pharlan would still be uber; for subs with less SR than that it's even sillier.
I'll admit that Funky pointed out that you have the option to take SR feats to boost this SR.
Unfortunately not only are SR feats really out of the question on just about any build of any race here on HG (certain exceptions I suppose, but nothing really leaps out of the page), but even moreso on super feat- and stat- tight builds/classes such as divine tanks in general (and in particular those which seem to be the point of Cambion--turner? smiter? BK?). And of course there's the meta decision: why would I use a race with crap SR and waste feats on improving SR, when alternate subrace choice like pharlan has 15 + level SR (which is enough to be noticeable but honestly all these SRs is virtually the same deal; overpowered toon for appropriate area is the only time it's even worth noticing; it in no way is a substitute for spell imm when that's necessary.)
I'll avoid a point-by-point analysis with Pharlan since it's pretty obvious that Pharlan wins overall unless you're both PW owner as well as reinc after demi to fully optimize the +2 Cha over Pharlan (while lacking the +4 wis which isn't missed much). Even still, regardless of player's situation or gear, Cambion is still a great race and a competitive choice vs. Pharlan for some fluffy non-meta reasons (such as not looking like a pharlan). Yet all that said, it doesn't make sense to me that the balance argument for cambion comes off as "good stats/feats but it can't be too good so let's not give it levi and it can have fluffy useless SR for lip service to BUR sub needing another racial feature".
I don't mean to insult the cambion creator with such claim, nor am I doing anything but guess what the rationale was; I'm just saying that's how it looks.
Regardless, it's pretty lame and disappointing to have BUR demonspawn divine tank with wings but it can't actually fly; and adding bad SR into the mix starts making it really get pharlan envy (obviously it didn't stop me or anyone else from choosing it over pharlan anyway, but that's a freighted place to start arguing about sub balance).
I don't see any value whatsoever in 10 + level SR. imho even 12, let alone 10 SR is useless and seemingly used for subs that are assumed to be so strong that a fluffy/useless SR feature is added. Even 15 SR doesn't compare with a survival imm let alone a feat.
I'd like to see the SR dropped (losing the fluff that no one cares about anyway isn't an excuse to add power, but then again it WAS added in the first place for SOME reason so likewise removing it should provide SOME breathing room) and levitation added.
Honestly SR seems more prevalent and overly-distributed amongst subs than even levi/wb. So the concept of losing lev in the name of diversity and getting useless SR like 50 other races doesn't make much sense to me.