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Post by jujure on Mar 28, 2014 23:05:35 GMT
Auto-shouts for all layers of Hell, Abo part 1 + 2, Ely and POP would be my vote. If there is to be a rule I would frame it as follows: 1. Do not trigger the auto-shout unless you are intending to do the run. 2. If your party is 3 or more you MUST accept additional players if they are of eligible level and sufficiently tagged UNLESS you are passed map 1 of the run or in the case of the Abyss have entered the starting portal. 3. If you allow one player to join/port in later during the run you MUST also allow others to do so if they can UNLESS you are on the final map. 4. Bots MUST be dropped in favour of real players UNLESS the bot is the only one of a core class (meaning Bard/Druid/Arcane or Cleric). 5. You MAY veto a player joining by unnanimous vote of those in the party but the person vetoed must be told so they can if they wish report this to the DM Team. Players continually vetoing for childish reasons will be dealt with appropriately. 6. Silly attempts to circumvent the rule will be dealt with on a case by case basis. 7. Be kind to one another Kratlin I think that's a pretty solid formulation. I'm still leaning towards the Cata solution at this point, as I don't want players to have to remember complex rules. A lot of this is already covered in the server rules by the bit about them being designed to mirror common courtesy, but that has already proven insufficent for some. As with any rulemakeing, there is a constant give and take between arbitrariness and specificity, with reasons pulling in both opposing directions. Funky Also include to complexity : translation for frenchy people like me and some other.. I.E. spanish,danish, i think also player here have to do some mea culpa. If server grow in population. we get more player to do run we want!! Yes sometime , we can do error and major 1 other time too. But never forget bad student are the result of bad teacher also If player here are more patient and give a chance to other player to learn the run by: i.e take time to explain clearfully what they need to do,, immune specific protection,going slowly in a specific map (no fast spawning). Maybe you will get better partner for end run!!!Constantly rushing and tail without give why do not or do this or that is a big mistake and after if you prefer doing specific run with your friend assume then the new rules!!! maybe a change in mentality for few here will help to not apply the rule! In fact more people here mean: 1) enjoyment for more !! 2)more easy to fill the run 3)more people contribute and help to survey of server! 4) more here mean also more people to meet and develop friendship always more fun to log on a server with 100 and more people than a server with only 30 people!!! 5) That why i think is : the prob is not how Funky and dev team looking to how to fix situation by rule or anything else code etc..!!!the problem is maybe our attitude to all myself include sometime!!!! this is our gameplay and attitude can change the things not only the rules!!!!Just thinking few min about you will get your own answer!! Juju
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Post by thomascovenant on Mar 28, 2014 23:11:07 GMT
I didnt realy read a lot of the answers as no time to translate all of them but here my 2 cents for what this worth
I dont realy mind about this rule well in real i realy dont care about it, no matter if the rule is on force or not if there is a player i dont wanna play with ( this happened very very rarely in the past years and with only very few players ) you can be sure you will never see me to party with a player i dont wanna to have in a party where i am, i will just leave the party like i usualy did in the past.
I think this rule will just push more players to play solo or in a party of 2, or again in a guild run, and this will not change at end thoses who are blacklisted to be a party of most of the party.
We played since years and years without this rule and this was not so bad, and no matter why the reason a player dont want to party with another player this is his choice, if players are force to accept player they realy dislike well this will make like i said or just push players to go elsewhere or yes to find some other trick to pass over the rule.
Just the fact if a player put most of the other players again him mean enought to understand this guy have a serious problem, it's not all other players who did bad but himself.
I think this rule will just push more pples to leave the server the to keep players to stay on the game.
May be the best way is to educate players who put themself in the situation to be blacklisted then to force all to play with this one. When i say to educate i mean when new player start on the server to take charge of him and to show him how HG work and what to avoid to not to fall in the situation to have hard time to find party. The big big big part of HG players are not close to new players, look the best evidance it's me who was accepted years ago by them, then if a player find the way to be blacklisted he probably did all need for it as even in guild for the both i am in we take time to discuss about special case of players and before to put a judgement members use to take time to see by themself and give the feedback on the forum most of the time if they had the same kind of issue with the player in question.
Sorry to had so long and i just hope i didnt repeat if someone else said he had the same view about this rule
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 29, 2014 1:04:45 GMT
That sounds like a lot of dev time wasted. The far, far simpler solution is something akin to Cata's solution where the rule is enforced temporarily when blacklisting gets out of hand. Actually, no, I need to come up with coded bot detection for Limbo anyway, so no time lost. I'm very open to suggestions for metrics used to suss out bots - or at least bots that are not actively in combat in a regular basis. Funky
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Post by Torin on Mar 29, 2014 7:50:07 GMT
I'm very open to suggestions for metrics used to suss out bots - or at least bots that are not actively in combat in a regular basis. Funky The game detects when I try an !earlyreset with both accounts. I guess it looks on the IP? However, there is coded how to detect which characters are from one player. Next step would be how to deduce which is/are the bot/s and which is the actively played character. This can get complicated from the question itself, i. e. I try sometimes to play both actively and not like a bot. Lets assume the more busy character is the played character and all others are classified as bots. Then something like a logger, like HGX would be needed. The character with more entries in the log (maybe averaged over 1 minute) is the played character. No idea how this is to code. And could cause server lag from my feeling. Or the active character is just the first character of a player that gets hurt or hurts/kills something. But that could be exploited I guess. The script could fire every minute avoid exploitation. Or the active character is just the first character of a player that enters the first map of a run. If that is known, every player can decide for himsel/herself which character is labeled as played and which as bot. (and even here some coding tricks could be necessary to avoid exploitation.)
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Post by theultimatesin on Mar 29, 2014 11:31:53 GMT
I just realized hell has frozen over. Funky agreed with Cata!
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Post by condude on Mar 29, 2014 15:40:10 GMT
That sounds like a lot of dev time wasted. The far, far simpler solution is something akin to Cata's solution where the rule is enforced temporarily when blacklisting gets out of hand. Actually, no, I need to come up with coded bot detection for Limbo anyway, so no time lost. I'm very open to suggestions for metrics used to suss out bots - or at least bots that are not actively in combat in a regular basis. Funky You'd need to differentiate them from a poorly played support bard, or something equally combat useless. Damage and kills are an obvious metric, but maybe even actions taken, if that's possible. If a bot is always casting, then you've just got a really good dual-boxer. For example, a bard who curses every spawn and applies epics as needed shouldn't have a problem, whereas a cleric that only rezzes wouldn't have a high enough action count to count as a player.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Mar 29, 2014 20:59:27 GMT
I just realized hell has frozen over. Funky agreed with Cata! Actually Funky and I quite often agree I just usually end up letting asshats, my own arrogance, idiocy and lack of understanding and inability to back down when I think I'm right lead me in the wrong direction as far as dealing with things go. This usually ends up with me abandoning my initial point and ending up arguing like an idiot with other equally idiotic trolls, which ends up in me being completely misunderstood, my original point completely missed or ignored and my time totally wasted in achieving nothing whatsoever. I'm trying not to do that any more But that is somewhat off topic I think Cata
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Post by axis16666 on Mar 30, 2014 3:06:05 GMT
Honestly, is it really that hard to get along and play a great game together? It's not like your vehicle is going to get repossessed or your electric is going to be shut off if the party wipes. It's not life changing. It's a game...a fantastic one, but still, it's just a game. If ya want to join the Drama Club, see if Joanie will pass Potsie a note in gym class about what Biff and Suzy are doing after school.....
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Post by Mister Pin on Mar 30, 2014 12:58:15 GMT
I was going to avoid this subject like the plague, but when i saw Axis's post i had to say something. I come here to have fun, to get away from RL bulls---, and i do that whether soloing, or dragging a bot ( still new to me ) or even (not so often anymore), partaking in a run. It's MY choice, as it is anyone else who plays here.
Sure, there are people i don't get along with, but if i need the tag i can play along side them for an hour or two to get it. I don't have to say a word either, just do my job and help the party. DONE.
I guess i just don't see the point of all this strife for a GAME, even as great as this one has been for me and many others over the years. Most of the people who play here that i know are for the most part ADULTS, so for the tag, the better of the group etc., either shut up and play or go home. If you don't like it, maybe you should not be here in the first place. Stick with chess. Play one on one with someone you like.
Too many people that i have known in the past/present have left for IMHO petty crap. And really- when you read ALL of these 10 pages, that's what it is. You have choices on this game people. Many many choices. Start a new toon, go to another server, come back tomorrow, whatever. But to throw away hundreds and HUNDREDS of hours of enjoying this game with countless other people because you got your feelings hurt by someone here? Laughable. You do have the !ignore don't you?
'Nuff said. Pin
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Post by Mister Pin on Mar 30, 2014 15:00:05 GMT
For myself, a lot of times i am solo/pulling a bot, so i don't have to worry about not inviting others. Maybe i will, maybe i won't. If i am gonna party with others, I think i have the smarts to look at who i am gonna party with in the first place. Put aside your petty differences on the game is all i am trying to say. If you can't, well. . . . there's always solitaire.
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Post by fallenwizard on Mar 30, 2014 16:13:03 GMT
I guess i just don't see the point of all this strife for a GAME, even as great as this one has been for me and many others over the years. Most of the people who play here that i know are for the most part ADULTS, so for the tag, the better of the group etc., either shut up and play or go home. If you don't like it, maybe you should not be here in the first place. Stick with chess. Play one on one with someone you like. Problem isnt necessarely the chat. Yes you could !ignore the said person during the run, but there isnt anything you can do when that said person runs ahead of the group spawning (even multiple spawns) while the rest of the group are trying to grant their characters wellearned nap to regain their powers.. Will that spawning cause a run to fail? Propably not, does it make it less enjoyable for others? Not necessarely, but propably yes. Anyways, I dont see much reason to continue this topic, doing so however, to clear some misunderestadings why so called blacklisting has taken place.
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Post by magecat on Mar 30, 2014 16:55:42 GMT
Certainly, there is. You warn them that their behavior is unacceptable. If they don't correct their behavior after several warnings, you report it, either to an in game DM, or PM Funky. Then, having followed established process, you kick them from the party. What you don't do is refuse them the next run. Do this enough times and you have documentation for getting them out of your play.
You are not blacklisting, you are proving that the person is the problem to the powers that be. The original thought was not a cart blanche for bad behavior on anyone's part.
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Post by Yojimbo on Mar 31, 2014 12:06:10 GMT
I'm very open to suggestions for metrics used to suss out bots - or at least bots that are not actively in combat in a regular basis. Funky The game detects when I try an !earlyreset with both accounts. I guess it looks on the IP? However, there is coded how to detect which characters are from one player. Next step would be how to deduce which is/are the bot/s and which is the actively played character. This can get complicated from the question itself, i. e. I try sometimes to play both actively and not like a bot. Lets assume the more busy character is the played character and all others are classified as bots. Then something like a logger, like HGX would be needed. The character with more entries in the log (maybe averaged over 1 minute) is the played character. No idea how this is to code. And could cause server lag from my feeling. Or the active character is just the first character of a player that gets hurt or hurts/kills something. But that could be exploited I guess. The script could fire every minute avoid exploitation. Or the active character is just the first character of a player that enters the first map of a run. If that is known, every player can decide for himsel/herself which character is labeled as played and which as bot. (and even here some coding tricks could be necessary to avoid exploitation.) It would be easier to just code for something to penalize a "leeching" player because that is what a dragged tagger bot would be I don't want to see such thing be impossible just far less rewarding so that it might give an incentive to players to bot less. I would lean toward this discussion going to a new thread though. I went ahead and made a thread for that subject here
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Post by Mister Pin on Apr 1, 2014 22:50:00 GMT
In answer to Fallen, ( i still have yet to learn how to use quote ); when i said use !ignore, i meant if you were soloing/pulling a bot and the person just can't get the hint. Or just tell them "sorry no can do" i reckon. As to someone who just won't listen in party- disruptive etc., isn't that what the "kick from party" option is for? I would hate to do that to someone in Hells ( wellllll, no i wouldn't, lol) but if they are gonna act the arse, maybe a stroll by themselves there will give them a lesson.
If it doesn't and they persist on shouting for party, i feel that is a justifiable reason to give to Funky/DM's/whoever as to why "you are breaking the rule". And yes, this thread is getting off topic i think, my fault partly sorry.
Pin
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Post by jujure on Apr 11, 2014 23:28:24 GMT
Just a new idea here! ok i explain prob on HG is lack of help for newbie player to reach deeper level and for other is getting deeper tag (hell: malb to Ness) (abyss-abo and ely for some other) Other player prefer play in guild or beetween friend cuz they cant play with player X Y Z. Well ok! But why not simply implantation of color code when use !lfg I.E first time is yellow (usual) 2nd time orange 3rd time red! after red warning if is request is not considerate or answer not given to him....rules can be apply!
after 3 shot party must give exact reason why they dont accept player in party!!! and btw in coding snap shot answer. if a good reason was evocate (i.E player spawning all room and try a self prowess solo in other run only example here or any other reason,we play guild run meeting you can fill if no1 else guild are present or if they come you will need to leave etc,) the answer can be considerate. Before apply rules!
My point here is Yes we need a change, but change worth to loose our Vets and more? My point is after 10 days of observation is :now no Untouchable had log in ,, and same thing since few days for a major part of DTS!! I just observe and conclude.. we lost our players slowly but really ... and that mean we lost contributor too... maybe we need to find a way to promote HG and make all ppl here happy to play HG and have fun! It's only an observation but.... I,ve done some error as a server owner myself i just try to help and give solution.. and suggestion. trying to stay a neutral judge here only. i love this server yes something must be done to change a bit, the mentality about coop... but what is the cost? If it lost all vet no sure is a wise way! maybe another solution? The way is, to all of us Funky ask solution not a critic!!! give him answer or help,solution or idea! not only negatif tread! take time for reflexion and idea to summit here! few brain is better than only one!
Why not just try to meet more ppl and have fun here it's just a game! Juju.
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