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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 1, 2014 16:44:01 GMT
I also thought we could allow players to designate a bot with a command of some type and if the command isn't used then it is selected by the system and how it will be selected I don't know first to enter a map first in database who knows. This solution does not address the issue of 2 human players playing simultaneously from the same network which is something I think we should take care to make possible as we have parents that play with children and spouses who play together it certainly wouldn't be good to "penalize" them for playing together. This is one possibility I've considered, but in the reverse. I was thinking we could start by just checking ip, and if anyone wanted to apply for non-bot status, they could post in a designated forum, and I could flag them as non-bot. That has a number of technical problems with implementation, however, as that account would then either have carte blanche to get as many tokens per run as they wanted, or, in the alternative, only that toon would have the ability to be counted as non-bot. The problem boils down to this not just being a question of account status, but of how that particular account is actually being used at any given time. In the end, it boils down to needing to check for 'active' play. Funky
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Post by kusin111 on Apr 1, 2014 16:53:01 GMT
I actually somewhat like this idea, more though on the point that it could prevent some players who tend to maybe be distracted or less than helpful on runs from receiving equal rewards (everyone's been in that loot split where the person who's contributed the least wins the role).
On the other hand though, I disagree with damage being one of the deciding factors. If I am "botting" a bard solely for the curse song, the damage is going to be very minimal. This could also be the fact with a shifter who is focusing on stoning/insta-killing. Just some thoughts.
Kus
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Post by Yojimbo on Apr 1, 2014 18:03:53 GMT
One thought instead of having to make forum request the 2nd account to log in from an IP automatically is flagged !bot and a player must use the !unbot command to play it as an active toon. Additionally could have a system to mark inactivity that when a player has been determined to be inactive it is flagged !bot and make the !unbot command only work out of combat so that people can't spam the command to remove the status and earn a reward. I would have anyone in !bot status not earn any kill counts or anything that is used to qualify rewards at the end of the run. My biggest issue her is that if your are dragging a tagger and playing a bot. Perhaps a !tagbot that allows you to select a toon that will be an inactive dragged bot but will earn the "tag" in place of the active played character.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 2, 2014 1:07:21 GMT
On the other hand though, I disagree with damage being one of the deciding factors. If I am "botting" a bard solely for the curse song, the damage is going to be very minimal. This could also be the fact with a shifter who is focusing on stoning/insta-killing. Just some thoughts. You misunderstand. Damage will be one of the thresholds. The point of this exercise is to figure out what checks, in addition to damage, should be added to determine bot status. Curse song and other support roles are indeed the problem cases. Spells cast per time is one metric, as is songs/curse songs per time, that might be proposed. I think just cursing and doing nothing else doesn't get you out of bot-dom, though, so songs should probably at spells cast, as as part of a larger 'active' check for non-damage types. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 2, 2014 1:10:58 GMT
One thought instead of having to make forum request the 2nd account to log in from an IP automatically is flagged !bot and a player must use the !unbot command to play it as an active toon. How is that an improvement? The forum-post advantage is that it adds an element of 'open and notorious' that the command would lack. The system isn't for determination of tags, but for 'per partymember' loot rewards. The entire point is to avoid the creation of an incentive to drag additional useless bots purely for more loot. Funky
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Post by elgrathforestwalke on Apr 2, 2014 3:05:49 GMT
What about using the !role command in some way? such as !role bot or !role non player? What about also checking maybe for movement if a toon is inactive or doesn't move for a specified period of time in addition to the other checks like damage etc.?
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Post by Enius the White on Apr 2, 2014 3:37:35 GMT
You read my mind elgrathforestwalker. The biggest delta in bot vs single toon player behavior, without getting very complicated, is probably how often the toon moves. A dual boxed toon will normally advance less frequently, sometimes only for those spawns where it's function is needed. Definitely far from perfect, but differentiating between an active dual boxer and inactive single toon player can actually be extremely difficult.
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Post by Yojimbo on Apr 2, 2014 12:35:40 GMT
What I mean by "tag" is loot rewards I just used "tag" with quotes as a generic term the idea is to allow dragging something but by using the command you forfeit the rights to what ever you earn at the end of the run on the active toon and pass it on to the inactive toon. If the command is not used a detection system would end up flagging inactive toons as !bot this can be undone with the !unbot command so if someone has to afk for a short time they don't get saddled with bot status an entire run and lose out on rewards.
Scenario for auto detection & !bot status Player 2 is playing DivineTank F and dragging along DivineTank G & DivineTank H the player needs the reward on DivineTank F the system detects inactivity on G & H and flags them !bot the run finishes and only DivineTank F recieves the reward.
Scenario for auto detection & !unbot Player 3 is playing Theurge Q but gets a sudden visit so must afk for a couple of minutes the system detects Theurge Q isn't active and sets it as !bot when Theurge Q gets back he/she the party is in combat and he is getting a message about being in !bot status and must wait until the end of combat to !unbot after combat Theurge Q uses !unbot and continues to player and recieves the end run reward
Scenario for !tagbot Player 1 Brings Cleric A and GI B but has the run reward on Cleric A but the party needs a cleric so he will be playing Cleric A and dragging along GI B so Player 1 uses !tagbot with Cleric A and targets GI B now as long as Cleric A qualifies for end of run reward it will be passed over to GI B
For scenario 1 the player can also elect to enter the bots into !bot status.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Apr 2, 2014 12:47:05 GMT
Can I just ask, is there a way to implement a system allowing party members in game to 'vote' on whether a character in the party should be given bot status?
And no that isn't my idea but the answer will determine if my actual idea has merit lol.
Cata
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Post by kaezar on Apr 2, 2014 13:33:30 GMT
You read my mind elgrathforestwalker. The biggest delta in bot vs single toon player behavior, without getting very complicated, is probably how often the toon moves. A dual boxed toon will normally advance less frequently, sometimes only for those spawns where it's function is needed. Definitely far from perfect, but differentiating between an active dual boxer and inactive single toon player can actually be extremely difficult. Enius is right on this one. I would go a bit beyond, though. It is not so much move as it is actions. A player, unless the is snoozing, is acting the whole time. Moving, casting, cursing, shape-changing, etc. Is there a way to flag a variable every round a character does something? If so, a character that has much less actions than the rest of the party is probably a bot - or somebody who has been loafing in GS, which I don't mind being tarred with the same feather. Say, at boss death, for example, party has something like an average of 500 actions. Somebody who has, say, 250 actions or less could be designated as a bot. Take care Kaezar
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Post by madzapper on Apr 2, 2014 13:36:36 GMT
You misunderstand. Damage will be one of the thresholds. The point of this exercise is to figure out what checks, in addition to damage, should be added to determine bot status. Curse song and other support roles are indeed the problem cases. Spells cast per time is one metric, as is songs/curse songs per time, that might be proposed. I think just cursing and doing nothing else doesn't get you out of bot-dom, though, so songs should probably at spells cast, as as part of a larger 'active' check for non-damage types. I've read most of the posts, and while your stand seems to remain constant, there are some murky areas based on everyone's posts. So, could you please clarify: Is the goal of this exercise is to have a system determine fairly reliably whether or not a player is playing a character hard enough to earn character rewards? Is the goal not to stop run-tagging on all characters, but instead used primarily as a means of determining which of the characters get XR tokens (and other potential loot-related goodies)? Will Super-duper players who can actively play two characters well, still probably get rewards on both toons while other, less productive players run the risk of not getting goodies? Are XR tokens/loot goodies transferrable? Cheers, Madzapper
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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 2, 2014 14:09:51 GMT
You read my mind elgrathforestwalker. The biggest delta in bot vs single toon player behavior, without getting very complicated, is probably how often the toon moves. A dual boxed toon will normally advance less frequently, sometimes only for those spawns where it's function is needed. Definitely far from perfect, but differentiating between an active dual boxer and inactive single toon player can actually be extremely difficult. This might be true, but using it as a threshold seems to be fairly easy to circumvent. What's to keep a player for moving their bot a few steps back and forth between spawns, or have them run around in circles while the party is resting? That being said, while on its own it's certainly not sufficient, it's still a great indicator when taken in conjunction with some other factors. One threshold that I don't think I've seen mentioned is incoming attacks. While certain class roles are generally higher in regards incoming attacks (generally it seems that druids and tank bards are at the top, followed by clerics and front-line tanks), it seems that hardly any active player can avoid having at least 200 or so incoming attacks on a run. Arcanes can circumvent this to an extent if they use GV on basically every spawn, but even then they're going to have a substantial number of incoming attacks throughout a run. I'd have to look at the logs more closely, but I have feeling that most bots would be below a 100 incoming attack threshold, whereas most active players would be well above that. Certain exceptions might be some of the more active bard bots, like Outkast's, which honestly contributes so much to the run anyway that it probably deserves additional rewards.
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Post by chainlink on Apr 2, 2014 14:31:56 GMT
Can I just ask, is there a way to implement a system allowing party members in game to 'vote' on whether a character in the party should be given bot status? And no that isn't my idea but the answer will determine if my actual idea has merit lol. Cata That won't prevent one (or a couple of players) voting all their characters as non bots to get them XR tokens which seems the primary goal of tthe whole bot detection thing. XR's are so uber that I can kind of understand the justification of attempting to make people play in 'real' parties to obtain them and reducing the ability of players endowed with multiple accounts of racking up absurdly high numbers of these items/tokens by dragging a bot army. Will keep the replay value of the XR areas and servers as a whole significantly higher than if people can get them all in short order and I'm speaking from the viewpoint of somebody who's run Oinos so much I've managed to get a copy of pretty much all of the BUR items in the game by doing this (in HC mode, had already got them all outside HC years ago).
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Post by Yojimbo on Apr 2, 2014 14:41:48 GMT
You read my mind elgrathforestwalker. The biggest delta in bot vs single toon player behavior, without getting very complicated, is probably how often the toon moves. A dual boxed toon will normally advance less frequently, sometimes only for those spawns where it's function is needed. Definitely far from perfect, but differentiating between an active dual boxer and inactive single toon player can actually be extremely difficult. Enius is right on this one. I would go a bit beyond, though. It is not so much move as it is actions. A player, unless the is snoozing, is acting the whole time. Moving, casting, cursing, shape-changing, etc. Is there a way to flag a variable every round a character does something? If so, a character that has much less actions than the rest of the party is probably a bot - or somebody who has been loafing in GS, which I don't mind being tarred with the same feather. Say, at boss death, for example, party has something like an average of 500 actions. Somebody who has, say, 250 actions or less could be designated as a bot. Take care Kaezar That seems like it might be an easier means than I thought up but I would still like a means to link a single pair of toons so that you can fill a party roll and earn the reward on the toon you originally brought to the run. This is only a concern in cases where the rewards are none transferable though so that is a factor if that is needed.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 2, 2014 14:53:15 GMT
That seems like it might be an easier means than I thought up but I would still like a means to link a single pair of toons so that you can fill a party roll and earn the reward on the toon you originally brought to the run. This is only a concern in cases where the rewards are none transferable though so that is a factor if that is needed. Why is it only a concern in such cases? XR Tokens, which are the primary reason for this discussion, are (I'm fairly certain) transferable. The concern here is that if you're bringing bots to Limbo, and earning XR tokens on them, you'll be able to exchange them for XR items at a rate of twice, or even thrice, that of a player who isn't botting.
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