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Post by kingcamaro on May 17, 2014 6:41:08 GMT
Lil story about how I started higherground. I started out with a wizard, a very bad one because I didn't read forums back then and it was something I was used to on other servers, 36wiz 3rogue 1shadow dancer. After a couple of desert runs I won the chance of a fallen angel subrace and indeed I won. So I looked on forums for builds that used fallen angel and the one that stuck out was an outdated build for a turner. So I made it. Played it like a caster cleric focusing on damage spells as my DC wasn't good. It isn't fast to level up in early levels but it was good enough for me. Building that turner is one of the best things I could have done in my opinion as there are a fair few runs turners work very well. That turner got me my first Bur subrace too, Rilmani which I made a druid with and got my first demi.
Now back then there was no reincarnation or anything so the one thing I'd change is make a caster cleric with fallen angel and reincarnate it to a turner a Lil later heh.
Basically use your fallen angel subrace to make a turner. You won't regret it (and pick the Iof and miracle epics)
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Post by Li'l Rose on May 17, 2014 11:58:47 GMT
Lil story about how I started higherground. I started out with a wizard, a very bad one because I didn't read forums back then and it was something I was used to on other servers, 36wiz 3rogue 1shadow dancer. After a couple of desert runs I won the chance of a fallen angel subrace and indeed I won. So I looked on forums for builds that used fallen angel and the one that stuck out was an outdated build for a turner. So I made it. Played it like a caster cleric focusing on damage spells as my DC wasn't good. It isn't fast to level up in early levels but it was good enough for me. Building that turner is one of the best things I could have done in my opinion as there are a fair few runs turners work very well. That turner got me my first Bur subrace too, Rilmani which I made a druid with and got my first demi. Now back then there was no reincarnation or anything so the one thing I'd change is make a caster cleric with fallen angel and reincarnate it to a turner a Lil later heh. Basically use your fallen angel subrace to make a turner. You won't regret it (and pick the Iof and miracle epics) By turner, I assume you mean turning undead, or other creatures with certain domains. Would a caster cleric not be good for that as well? I do not understand why the need to reincarnate.
I have tried clerics, but they have never gone well for me. I have always made them into melee casters, since there were never enough damage spells, and the divine favour/power buffs were always running out too soon.
I do enjoy playing druids, but mostly as casters, and not for the wildshapes. I enjoy sorcerers as well, so I think the herald of storms may be right for me. Though I think I should have used human instead of elf. Having to alternate classes will mean pretty slow leveling until I get some better spells.
Thank you for the suggestion though, and I will consider it.
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Post by desocupado on May 17, 2014 13:38:47 GMT
Druid would be the optimal core. The Herald wouldn't be a good choice (they are harder to level up, and don't count as a "core") - The classic Druid 38/Pal 1/Monk 1 provides a solid character.
With conjuration evocation and transmutation you have plenty of damage, crowd control and utility. You only need to pick 2 schools (and spell penetration) when leveling.
Make sure to follow a build from the forums.
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Post by Enius the White on May 17, 2014 16:59:08 GMT
The Herald wouldn't be a good choice (they are harder to level up, and don't count as a "core") Technically that is wrong. A Herald is difficult to level only until they gain the Quasi status (i.e. until they actually are a Herald) around level 32. Until that point they are simply a bizarre Sorc/Druid multiclass . Once they are a Herald, they are probably the easiest class to level. Level 32, incidentally, is around where the tougher tags begin, and from the moment a Herald is forged, they are fun, powerful, and can destroy the remaining pre-ll tags. After that, the fun really begins. The Cloudkill has it's limitations in the end game, but until then it's an absolute blast. It leaches HPs from enemies, while instakilling any non-death-immune ones every round. Once you get used to the other clouds, maps, and tactics a bit, you can mass big piles of mobs around line-of-sight corners (avoiding some ranged attacks, and drawing ranged mobs in), hold them, and watch the piles burn as your hitpoints leach into the 1000s, ready for the next pull. Until you find good gear, prioritize covering any instakill/disable immunities for each area/run. Maybe take a minute to leach ~5000 hp off the bandits (or what have you) as you run through to your next pre-ll tag or LL run, to start off on the right foot . With a complete suite of Druid and Sorc spell slots (good for poorer starting caster slot gear), and full+quasi-bonus DC (great for a UR subby) on all Conjuration and Enchant schools, they are surprisingly adaptable, and versatile. The weaknesses are 1) getting to level 32 without a party (as desocupado points out). 2) learning to be effective around end game party-wide kickback mobs. (dropping AoE damage on them is just not an option, and always have "!cancelaoe" quickslotted front and center in any case) 3) no epic or paragon spells I would recommend something like this FA build: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/23754/merther-druid-20-sorc-monkWith worthwhile play advice here: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/23827/source-controversy-drd-17-sorAnd here: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/23766/wrath-valhalla-druid-sorc-monkThe last one, incidentally, is my second HC Herald (using the Rilmani BUR subby). I would definitely not worry that Heralds "don't count as a "core"" in the end game. Running a lead "core", can be very demanding on newer players, and most parties would be very happy to have a second damage focused Sorc (the most common/desirable "second" toon of any caster class), and a Herald can dole out more damage, more effectively, than any other class on HG. Damage becomes key against the tougher endgame mobs and bosses that cannot be instakilled. In any case, a Herald can always easily reincarnate into a Druid or Sorc, if/when you want to try one of those core classes. Have fun, and enjoy the journey, its long, and incredibly diverse and exciting.
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Post by simpetar on May 17, 2014 17:31:45 GMT
Lil story about how I started higherground. I started out with a wizard, a very bad one because I didn't read forums back then and it was something I was used to on other servers, 36wiz 3rogue 1shadow dancer. After a couple of desert runs I won the chance of a fallen angel subrace and indeed I won. So I looked on forums for builds that used fallen angel and the one that stuck out was an outdated build for a turner. So I made it. Played it like a caster cleric focusing on damage spells as my DC wasn't good. It isn't fast to level up in early levels but it was good enough for me. Building that turner is one of the best things I could have done in my opinion as there are a fair few runs turners work very well. That turner got me my first Bur subrace too, Rilmani which I made a druid with and got my first demi. Now back then there was no reincarnation or anything so the one thing I'd change is make a caster cleric with fallen angel and reincarnate it to a turner a Lil later heh. Basically use your fallen angel subrace to make a turner. You won't regret it (and pick the Iof and miracle epics) By turner, I assume you mean turning undead, or other creatures with certain domains. Would a caster cleric not be good for that as well? I do not understand why the need to reincarnate.
I have tried clerics, but they have never gone well for me. I have always made them into melee casters, since there were never enough damage spells, and the divine favour/power buffs were always running out too soon.
I do enjoy playing druids, but mostly as casters, and not for the wildshapes. I enjoy sorcerers as well, so I think the herald of storms may be right for me. Though I think I should have used human instead of elf. Having to alternate classes will mean pretty slow leveling until I get some better spells.
Thank you for the suggestion though, and I will consider it.
Caster cleric, usually referred to as "ploder" (for their signature spell, Implosion) and turner cleric have quite different play styles (and priorities). Ploders pump every point in wisdom, turners just meet the basic 25 wisdom and then focus on charisma. Turners rock when there are turnable monsters, and suffer when there are none; ploders have bigger arsenal and are more adaptable. From newcomer point of view, playing low level (55 and below) turner can be agonizing, because only few spell benefit from charisma, until LLs will not be turning anything and quite a while in LLs neither. "Melee caster clerics" a.k.a. battle clerics are totally viable choice here. They are very sturdy tanks and can perform some basic cleric tasks as bonus (mostly epic and supportive spells). They are quite different from the two previous types. And you do not have to worry about buffs dropping too fast: in the most common case (55 cleric levels), most buffs last 11 minutes when extended (55*2 rounds) and you will likely have quite some spell slots from gear.
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Post by Li'l Rose on May 17, 2014 23:51:59 GMT
Well, you all have convinced me, and I am going to try a core class. I have a bard build that I am going to try. I have always enjoyed playing bards, but I was not sure how to make a bard here. I have a build now that I'm sure will be fun to play. I am hoping to be a little more helpful. Well, other than helping people empty their rez rods, lol.
I'm still going to make my herald of storms, and yeah, a gnome inventer too, but I will focus more on the bard. When I first came here, I had no idea what the higher areas were like. Well, I still have no idea lol, but I have been hearing about how nasty it would be for my kind of fun builds. I guess I have been seeing Crystal dying a little too often, lol. Though I still need her to get to level 60, and the BUR subraces, so I can read my brownie subrace book. Also a little knowledge of the hell areas will be helpful for my bard. Do not get me wrong though. I'm still going to make my fun builds, since I guess I will never change, lol.
Thank you everyone for all your help and suggestions. You are all a great bunch of people.
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Post by Lil' Mikey (Msowby2) on May 18, 2014 0:09:05 GMT
Well, you all have convinced me, and I am going to try a core class. I have a bard build that I am going to try. I have always enjoyed playing bards, but I was not sure how to make a bard here. I have a build now that I'm sure will be fun to play. I am hoping to be a little more helpful. Well, other than helping people empty their rez rods, lol.
I'm still going to make my herald of storms, and yeah, a gnome inventer too, but I will focus more on the bard. When I first came here, I had no idea what the higher areas were like. Well, I still have no idea lol, but I have been hearing about how nasty it would be for my kind of fun builds. I guess I have been seeing Crystal dying a little too often, lol. Though I still need her to get to level 60, and the BUR subraces, so I can read my brownie subrace book. Also a little knowledge of the hell areas will be helpful for my bard. Do not get me wrong though. I'm still going to make my fun builds, since I guess I will never change, lol.
Thank you everyone for all your help and suggestions. You are all a great bunch of people. Hey Rose! Welcome If you are looking for core build formats Rain has some good builds on this forum. I -Think- they are also formatted for UR races as well! As always though you are more then welcome to ask players who constantly play cores through hells and beyond (myself included) and we can get you a decent layout for a UR build. If you are looking something specific to build lemme know- I have a lot of books and maybe I can pass some your way, no charge For druid id personally recommend trans/Necro/evo foci b/c those spells are all instant kill and disable spells [option to drop necro before BUR subby but if you can fit in I would!]. Conj is meh but not worth the extra foci imo. Once you have Rilmani (BUR race) then you can fit conj in there for sure. 38/1/1 like suggested is pretty cool but a 39/1monk splash will give you pure caster level (with CL ego) which is nice! Cleric almost the same. Foci: Evo,Necro,Divination, Enchantment (just epic for grid). No iof [trans foci] but pretty powerful, espeically on a FA subby. I have a pure cleric and I love it! If you foci in Necro you have to be evil so no paladin splash. I would suggest either 39/1rnger, Pure or 39/1monk <--kinda swishy imo. Lil' Mikey [msowby2]
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Post by tomaan on May 18, 2014 16:15:45 GMT
As you've probably discovered by now, there are several ways to skin a cat on HG, hence the wide range of opinions as to "fun" and/or "effective".
Personally, I tend to not recommend quasi-classes for new users because (as mentioned above) they can be difficult to level until they reach quasi status. And with any caster (shifter too), there's always going to be a bit of a learning curve -- especially on HG with so much customization. Personally, I prefer tanks - they are gear dependent to a large extent, but a lot of the gear is easy to find (especially once you hit level 50). Of course, tanks swing at a lot of air, as you mentioned before...especially in a party of insta-kill casters.
Regardless of the build you choose, just commit to it -- very few builds are effective in every single area of the server, so don't get discouraged if you find yourself in a support role on certain runs...just understand that support roles are important on the server as well, so you can still contribute to the party.
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Post by kingcamaro on May 18, 2014 19:50:20 GMT
the main reason I suggested turner was because you can level it as a caster cleric (ploder) to 60, then reincarnate to a turner to do hells with. turners are extremely useful in hells with their crowd control abilities, and watching things "pop" is fun, there is also not a steep learning curve for a turner. definatly take plant domain and fire domain on your first cleric level (plant gives access to creeping doom, and fire gives access to wall of fire, and both domains are useful for the added creature types you can turn) charisma is a turners main stat, but getting 25 base wisdom is also important (fallen angel is one of the best subraces for this, period) you can add a pally level to this for very nice saves. your spellbook is pretty simple to set up, mainly greater restores, battletides, prayers and a few undeath eternal foes. areas turners ROCK!, (off the top of my head) all hells levels many abyss levels dustbone dachy part of desert (especially final 2 maps) uroboros (mainly the undead map, but other parts too) dulvuroth pit of moliation black pyramid I think hive too? but despite not being able to rock everything in the mod, you can provide excellent party back up with greater restore, undeaths eternal foe, remove curse, remove disease, creeping doom, miracle epic (resurrects all fallen party members on the map and grants temp HP), wepon buffs and im sure many others ive not mentioned (again, going off the top of my head here) here is the info about the changes to turn undead on higherground: (you can also get a set of robes from Elysium which allows you to turn plants)
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Post by Li'l Rose on May 18, 2014 23:12:12 GMT
That does sound interesting to try, so I will consider trying it. I still want to try my bard build, since I have always loved playing bards. I will see how my bard goes though, but I'm not sure how well I will do, since there is a lot of new stuff to learn. I have already had a little trouble understanding the !bardsong commands, but I think I have it figured out now. Though I am not sure which bardsong buffs my party members will prefer. Do people prefer higher ab/ac, or do they wish higher saves? Oh well, lol, it will be fun.
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Post by Enius the White on May 18, 2014 23:42:17 GMT
The Wiki has a decent, brief bard Play Guide here: wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/BardParagon Illusion focus now gives a caster (or Cha based) bard ~10 Possum's per rest, which any party will love when things get a little rough.
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Post by chirality on May 19, 2014 0:06:13 GMT
@ bardsong: this is heavily customized on HG (w/ HGE of course ), and you'll want to make sure you redo your song after each levelup, or it goes back to default vanilla numbers (extremely underwhelming if not useless in HG high-powered environment). Curse song and bard song will both be set up a bit differently, since you want to focus certain stats for cursing mobs yet different ones for buffing party. As for recommended setup, you may receive different answers depending on whom you ask, but unless it's some bizarre exception, the "basics" are pretty universal regardless of level and zone. Especially once you're in Hells (or Abyss/Hades which also include layer penalties), skills are very important. My bardsong maxes saves AC and skills as 1st priority (in fact skills 1st when a choice must be made); AB is basically least priority in general, since most mobs (especially in hell) have relatively low AC compared to the AB numbers the average buffed tank is throwing around. Dmg is useful but also lower priority than skills/AC. Curse song similarly focuses skills and saves as first priority, especially in Hells+, because one of a bard's (many) important and awesome duties is to drop mob skills to make them more vulnerable to different attacks (in particular, some oft-quoted examples include Parry drop on mobs such as corny). However, for curse I have swapped importance of AB/AC vs bardsong; song maxes AC with less on AB, while curse has higher AB drop and lower AC drop (therefore hopefully helping mobs hit less, yet not as concerned with reducing their AC, which is rarely an issue, and exceptions are a bit further down the road and more specialized to deal with). @ turner: heh, I don't really see the point. It doesn't teach anything whatsoever useful (memorizing the idiosyncratic and annoying HG mob TR system is only applicable to playing other turners) that a real ploder doesn't, assuming levelling as ploder then reinc, and the kicker is that learning to play ploder properly (and knowing what spells to use on what mobs) is pretty important, especially Hells and after, and as both a "core" as well as an extremely talented instakiller, a ploder is always valuable. A turner can perform all the defensive/party buff functionality of a ploder, but cannot match the offensive arsenal (extremely useful when you know how to use it) of a ploder, and thus it's no comparison in terms of "core role". It's not productive imo for a new player to play a ploder and then reinc it to turner just at the cusp of truly coming into its own; standing around and smashing turns while being the GR/UEF bot for the party is rewarding if you enjoy it, but not so rewarding if you don't. Personally I love playing a turner, but many if not most find it quite boring, 1-dimensional, and lame. Add to the fact that it's not universally useful, nor a core, and I honestly think it's a very poor choice for any new or new"er" player. As for usefulness in different zones: Uro--useless (1 map filled with undead...and you go thru 2 maps of non turnables to get there, followed by another 2 maps of nonturnables. worst of all, it's ineffective without sun domain) Desert--bleh, what a terrible run....if you can turn cinder flats then you're better off just doing DB (and anyway desert is a huge timewaster and inefficient xp unless you're just grabbing runes as fast as possible. Hive--useless. turner in hive is extremely underwhelming and disappointing, even for "finished" toon with high TL and vermin domain, because despite hive being filled with insects, only a FEW (5ish?) of the few dozen mobs there are actually vermin. BP--sure, but not until end of your career and with sun domain, which is not useful or required for anything else (except lost souls of vashyk in DB, virtually impossible to destroy without sun, and uro temple map) Anyway, turning system in general has been nerfed into the ground, and for endgame play, turning (pun intended) the run into a shooting fish in the barrel as they're helplessly stunned can be useful, but then without uber Cha your stun DC is quite easy for many hell+ mobs to break, especially the troublesome ones that you'd love to stay turned, and other than rebuke, turner completely lacks ability to insta many of the "common mob" primary ploder targets, such as amnizu (1 example), let alone the "troublesome random" targets such as brach, so again it's a question of "core functionality". Finally, I simply cannot understate the absolute lameness of the turning system when it comes to certain extremely common mobs (cornugon for example) totally ruining your fun. It's fun to stun but the whole point is "make them pop" like KC says, and this simply isn't possible in the same way as many years ago.
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Post by Li'l Rose on May 19, 2014 9:39:27 GMT
Thank you guys, for your help with playing bards, and using the !bardsong commands.
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