|
Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 29, 2014 22:42:14 GMT
Rationale:
The purpose of this suggestion is to address the discrepancy between the relative strengths of different weapons, the damage output of different builds, the difference between strength and dexterity builds, as well as the strengths of the different tiers of weapons. Rather than suggest nerfs to builds which are, by all rights, balanced, I figured I would offer a suggestion that can potentially strengthen all lacking melee (and ranged) builds, while trying to maintain a good balance.
The Basics:
This suggestion involves the adding of "sockets" to different tiers of weapons. Level 35 weapons and below would remain unchanged, but the following sockets would be added to other tiers:
Dustbone Weapons - 1 socket L50 Weapons - 1 socket Dis Weapons - 2 sockets Other Hell weapons - 2 sockets Abyss weapons - 3 sockets
The Gems:
Gems would be added to the current crafting gem drop table, with significantly lower rarity. There would be three types of weapon gems, one which augments the base stats of that weapon type, one which augments the pre-existing damage dice on a weapon, and one which adds additional on-hit effects. They are as follows:
Top tier (and therefore lowest drop rate): Puncturing Gem* - Adds the "Extra Melee Damage Type: Piercing" property to the chosen weapon. Lacerating Gem* - Adds the "Extra Melee Damage Type: Slashing" or "Extra Ranged Damage Type: Slashing" property to the chosen weapon. Weighted Gem* - Adds the "Extra Melee Damage Type: Bludgeoning" or "Extra Ranged Damage Type: Bludgeoning" property to the chosen weapon. Gem of Precision** - Adds 1 to the critical hit range of the chosen weapon. Devastating Gem*** - Adds 1 to the critical hit multiplier of the chosen weapon (does NOT stack with Increase Multiplier or Devastating Critical).
*These gems CANNOT be used on any weapon that already has two physical damage types. **This gems CANNOT be used on any weapon with a critical hit range of 18-20 or greater. ***This gems CANNOT be used on any weapon with a critical multiplier of x3 or greater. ****Only a single gem of this type may be applied to a given weapon.
Second Tier: Corrosive Gem - Adds one die of Acid damage to the chosen weapon (2 dice for Abyss weapons). Freezing Gem - Adds one die of Cold damage to the chosen weapon (2 dice for Abyss weapons). Conductive Gem - Adds one die of Electric damage to the chosen weapon (2 dice for Abyss weapons). Burning Gem - Adds one die of Fire damage to the chosen weapon (2 dice for Abyss weapons). Resounding Gem - Adds one die of Sonic damage to the chosen weapon (2 dice for Abyss weapons).
Third Tier: Enfeebling Gem - When an enemy is struck by a weapon with this gem, they must make a DC 50 Fortitude save or take 2 points of Strength damage. Disorienting Gem - When an enemy is struck by a weapon with this gem, they must make a DC 50 Fortitude save or take 2 points of Dexterity damage. Stupefying Gem - When an enemy is struck by a weapon with this gem, they must make a DC 50 Fortitude save or take 2 points of Intelligence damage. Enraging Gem - When an enemy is struck by a weapon with this gem, they must make a DC 50 Fortitude save or take 2 points of Wisdom damage. Disfiguring Gem - When an enemy is struck by a weapon with this gem, they must make a DC 50 Fortitude save or take 2 points of Charisma damage. Draining Gem - When an enemy is struck by a weapon with this gem, they must make a DC 50 Fortitude save or suffer two negative levels. Gem of Brilliance - When an enemy is struck by a weapon with this gem, they must make a DC 50 Fortitude save or be blinded. Cursing Gem - When an enemy is struck by a weapon with this gem, they suffer the effects of a level 50 curse song.
That's all I have so far. I know it's rough, and would require some work (both to fine tune AND implement via dev time), but I feel like it's a workable suggestion. Feel free to rip it apart, suggest changes or additions, etc. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by tomaan on Dec 30, 2014 0:43:34 GMT
I hate to de-rail your thread, but I'm going to de-rail your thread:
I actually like this model better as an enhancement for some of the more "challenged" classes, like Asn and Bane Knight. At a certain level, they can complete quest(s) to get the enhancement(s) and each would be consistent with their class themes.
Asn might get the "draining" and/or "precision" enhancement, while Bane Knight would get the "cursing" and/or "devastating".....AA could use "lacerating" or "weighted", etc.
This isn't a criticism, mind you.....I love out-of-the-box ideas and this one got me thinking.
|
|
|
Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 30, 2014 0:56:58 GMT
Hey, no problem. It's intended to help weaker classes/weapons. All suggestions are welcome.
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Dec 30, 2014 3:53:40 GMT
I kinda liked the idea, but not the execution. It's very aversive with dual wielding, and rare drops might not go well with something as abundant as weapons (a tank should have between 3 and 7 different weapons)
--Tier 1 Those effects, specially extra damage type, would make people hoard weapons for different enemies. Well, extra damage types are only useful for Str tanks, which is ok, since dexter will probably take the critical related ones. Having lower drop rate might be frustrating.
--Tier 2 Might as well call it abyss tier. I'd keep it 2 dice for all weapons, abyss ones can have more enchantments anyway. I'd prefer having just two gems: Elemental and exotic, increasing all respective damage types. Or maybe it could increase the dice.
--Tier 3-- I'm not sure a DC 50 is very useful. Well, some unique items have such DC and aren't reliable by a long shot. I'd say increase it by 2-5 points. On the other hand, are you sure that either int wis and cha drain are of any use? Str drain overlap with rogue's crippling strike and use poison. Since you omitted Con, you might as well omit that one.
--------- I'd agree on tomaan's derail, having such things as class features would be an interesting route. -----
A few extra ideas:
Massive critical hits -> +50 damage on critical hits Vampiric heal -> life on hit Extraordinary Accuracy -> +3/5 ab (stack with everything)
Abo weapons need some consideration as well.
|
|
|
Post by Twilight Semner on Dec 30, 2014 13:47:12 GMT
I figured INT/WIS/CHA would be useful for casters, particularly since Limbo might have some dangerous casters. I omitted CON since, if you manage to land it, the enemy is going to die pretty quickly - figured level drain would take a lot longer.
|
|
|
Post by Li'l Rose on Dec 30, 2014 14:53:07 GMT
I like that idea, and I have some suggestions. Since I have found Dustbone weapons to be pretty much useless with no casters around, how about some enhancement gems. For top tier, you could have +13 enhance gems. For second tier, +13 attack bonus, and for third tier, +11 attack bonus. This allows you to have more useable weapons, but still have use for the caster buffs as well.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Dec 30, 2014 15:35:37 GMT
I love the idea of various gems, but the amount of sockets and the effects are a bit too strong i think. Elemental gems shouldn't stack (such as 3x fire gems on an abyss halberd for 6 extra dice - too destructive imo).
Dis weapons could have 1 slot for sockets to make them a tad better than DB weapons, that would be a reasonable balancing factor. Personally I think just buffing DIS weapons a bit would be better though. On the other hand, making only DB dualtype weapons usable compared to DIS weapons is not a good route to take i think.
I'd also agree with Rose - i think tanks should be less reliant on weapon buffs, so i'd actually think it'd be cool if you could find gems that you could bind to yourself, which you could use to buff weapons. Quite like the Toyshop gems - but not consumable, and in more variety (elemental dmg buffs from items quite similarly to the Rona Sai) as bossloot from LL areas. Do LL areas in a party (or more realistically solo on your caster I guess) and attain solo proficiency on your tanks. Personally I think such gems should be purchaseable for 1-2 dice lvl req 20 / 40 from the shops or drop from secret locations during leveling, to make leveling something like a Barbarian or Fighter less like chewing wood. These would still not be as good as weaponbuffs, so partyplay is still a good route to take, but not a must-have to proceed in the lower areas.
These socketed gems on the other hand are so strong that I think they should either drop from Abyss/Abo/Ely bosses or minibosses. I like the idea of imbuing weapons with spells such as Level-Drain and Statdrain like mentioned here, although I'd like if they scaled with your stats, instead of a flat DC - and as many mentioned here before, would rather have them buffing the weaker classes than allow for every build based on richboy status.
Or going further for Aoe-DMG such as on-hit % to burst for CL X SP X Element X spells or simply damage. Limited use due to various Kickback monsters, but would allow for soloing proficiency on tanks, and I like the idea of "Arcane Blades", but this is a longshot and hard to balance and possibly even harder to implement properly.
Just a few thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by Yojimbo on Dec 30, 2014 15:57:11 GMT
I like that idea, and I have some suggestions. Since I have found Dustbone weapons to be pretty much useless with no casters around, how about some enhancement gems. For top tier, you could have +13 enhance gems. For second tier, +13 attack bonus, and for third tier, +11 attack bonus. This allows you to have more useable weapons, but still have use for the caster buffs as well. There are a few items you can use to add Attack or Enhancement bonus to weapons easiest to get are the consumable gems from Toy Shop which grant +14 IIRC. I do want to see more options to make tanks more self sufficient at least enough for more viable party options as well as more capabilities to solo places like Onios as a tank class. I like the general idea of the slot system but I think it doesn't work for HG and a system that is based on classes is better and DB weapons really need no boost while most all others could use some.
|
|
|
Post by elgrathforestwalke on Dec 30, 2014 18:27:11 GMT
What about NPC's casting weapon buffs for a small fee, the Priest in town could cast cleric buffs, the Rowain tree Guardian could do druid buffs and the sage could cast arcane weapon buffs. Or could have the priest in the temple of tyr or temple of lathander do them too. Or have Otis cast all weapon buffs for alcohol form rips ;p Could have special Otis brews in rips, depending on which one you purchase and give to him he will cast that weapon buff, so if you bring him a fire brew he will cast fire buff and so on.
|
|
|
Post by KnightErrant on Dec 30, 2014 18:35:33 GMT
iirc adding damage bonus type slashing, piercing or bludgeoning to a weapon doesn't function properly/doesn't work like you'd think it would....either gets overwritten completely or added to whatever damage type the weapon already does. (Werehound did some testing with this awhile back but I gave up trying to find the post atm)
I would love to see the ability to add cool "on hit" abilities to weapons....unfortunately, as far as I've been told by Funky/Acaos, it creates insane/unbearable lag on the servers when too many "on hit" abilities are trying to fire...which is, I'm told, why there hasn't been any weapons like this added to the mod in a very long time.
KE.
|
|
|
Post by Restos on Dec 30, 2014 19:52:03 GMT
What about NPC's casting weapon buffs for a small fee, the Priest in town could cast cleric buffs, the Rowain tree Guardian could do druid buffs and the sage could cast arcane weapon buffs. Or could have the priest in the temple of tyr or temple of lathander do them too. Or have Otis cast all weapon buffs for alcohol form rips ;p Could have special Otis brews in rips, depending on which one you purchase and give to him he will cast that weapon buff, so if you bring him a fire brew he will cast fire buff and so on. What you are looking for is NPC buffer, and it's not a direction I'd like to see. Next thing you know, there are a whole bunch of NPC buffers (is this an idea you got from L2?) neglecting team-play. That in return will make casters skip weapon buffs (and/or several other buffs) completely. Sorcerers/Bards with no buffs learnt is going to hurt. Edit: Also, I would like to address what KE said about on hit weapons and lag: this is certainly true. Imagine a team-pvp server with tons of on hit weapons on a single map 20vs20... result? Unplayable. Part of the fault was party chat, and every on hit weapon lying around. Although on hit weapons is a cool idea, I dare not play a Tiamat run with that lag
|
|
|
Post by Werehound Silverfang on Dec 30, 2014 22:16:50 GMT
iirc adding damage bonus type slashing, piercing or bludgeoning to a weapon doesn't function properly/doesn't work like you'd think it would....either gets overwritten completely or added to whatever damage type the weapon already does. (Werehound did some testing with this awhile back but I gave up trying to find the post atm) I would love to see the ability to add cool "on hit" abilities to weapons....unfortunately, as far as I've been told by Funky/Acaos, it creates insane/unbearable lag on the servers when too many "on hit" abilities are trying to fire...which is, I'm told, why there hasn't been any weapons like this added to the mod in a very long time. KE. It adds the damage type, causing immunities to weird out. For instance, you could add Extra Melee Damage: Bludgeoning damage to a kukri, and then monsters would use their lowest immunity (Slashing or Bludg) to be protected from the physical damage portion. For the longest time the scenario below was also the case. I don't recall if it has been changed on HG. If you add Damage Type: Bludgeoning 2d12 to a kukri, your kukri would do 2d12 more slashing damage.
|
|
|
Post by Yojimbo on Dec 31, 2014 14:05:41 GMT
That example doesn't sound like weirding out that is exactly how a Morningstar or Halberd work the lowest of the two physical immunities is what is used and would be the whole reason to have the "Extra Melee Damage" unless HG ever hacks the game more to have multi damage type weapons deal 50/50 of their types and respect both immunities.
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Dec 31, 2014 21:19:07 GMT
A weapon with only the Extra Melee Damage property only adds physical damage of the same type(s) as the base weapon. The Extra Melee Damage Type property is required for a weapon to actually deal a different physical type than its base type(s). However, the engine does not discern a separate quantum for added Extra Melee Damage of a non-base type. All physical damage is applied in the form of 1 physical type (whichever is most effective, as stated above), so even if the Extra Type property is added, the weapon only ever does 1 phys type at a time. Funky said in the past that he wasn't keen really on thing that adds/expands different physical damage types (for balance reasons, and also the zots if it's to not be the scenario illustrated above). Also, we all know multiple phys types is imba anyway. (Wasn't there just a thread about that ). Offering "socketed gems" to provide an extra melee type is broken, and should not happen. Any such complex and hack-requiring edit as this will obviously and naturally probably not take precedence over the ancient weapons redux edit. At the very least, it's certain that nothing will or should be added to allow people to craft their own dualphys dream weapon; all other considerations aside (logistics/economics), it would be just plain balance cultureshock. We're still dealing with the wreckage of the last ubertankdmg edit, so atm this sounds "bit too soon". The onhit stuff is much less balance and much more practicality, as mentioned above. As a sidenote though: DC 50 too low? You'd be surprised; think about how many attacks ubertank#472 lands every round. Consider how often we as players roll 1s (let alone 2-5s). I've reliably landed vanilla onhits on those crappy toolset weapons on higher-level lowbie zones, just cuz 2 rounds of attacks is a really good chance to roll a 1 or maybe 2. The crit augmentation sounds bit lame, tbh. All weapons basically turn into uberweapons if they weren't already? I'd rather just see the base stats properly balanced and tweaked, rather than worrying about calculating and accounting for the value/balance impact of crit improvement gems vs. other options. Overall I'd have to say that indeed, as you mention in the 1st sentence of OP, this scheme is quite homogenizing. Not sure I like that
|
|