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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 22, 2015 15:28:57 GMT
This is my thematic Battle Cleric build but mostly seems solid only concern is Reflex saves could consider dropping 2 STR/1 AB to pick up some Reflex save feats. Base Race: Half-Orc Sub-Race: Half-Cyclops STR: +5 DEX: -2 CON: +2 WIS: +5 Free Feats: SF & ESF Listen Starting Stats:Level 1 | Cleric (1) | STR: 17 (22) DEX: 8 (6) CON: 12 (14) WIS: 15 (20) INT: 14 CHA: 6
| Power Attack Domain: Protection Domain: Strength |
Pre-Epic:Level 2 | Cleric (2) | | | Level 3 | Cleric (3) | | SF: Abjuration | Level 4 | Cleric (4) | STR +1 (23) | | Level 5 | Cleric (5) | | | Level 6 | Cleric (6) | | SF: Divination | Level 7 | Cleric (7) | | | Level 8 | Cleric (8) | STR +1 (24) | | Level 9 | Cleric (9) | | Cleave | Level 10 | Cleric (10) | | | Level 11 | Cleric (11) | | | Level 12 | Blackguard (1) | STR +1 (25) | WF: Greataxe | Level 13 | Blackguard (2) | | | Level 14 | Blackguard (3) | | | Level 15 | Cleric (12) | | GWF: Greataxe | Level 16 | Cleric (13) | STR +1 (26) | | Level 17 | Cleric (14) | | | Level 18 | Cleric (15) | | Lightning Reflexes | Level 19 | Cleric (16) | | | Level 20 | Fighter (1) | STR +1 (27) | IC: Greataxe |
Epic:Level 21 | Cleric (17) | | EWF: Greataxe | Level 22 | Cleric (18) | | | Level 23 | Cleric (19) | | | Level 24 | Cleric (20) | STR +1 (28) | ESF: Discipline | Level 25 | Cleric (21) | | | Level 26 | Cleric (22) | | | Level 27 | Cleric (23) | | Extended Spell Armor Skin | Level 28 | Cleric (24) | STR +1 (29) | | Level 29 | Cleric (25) | | | Level 30 | Cleric (26) | | Great Strength I (30) GSF: Abjuration | Level 31 | Cleric (27) | | | Level 32 | Cleric (28) | STR +1 (31) | | Level 33 | Cleric (29) | | Great Strength II (32) GSF: Divination | Level 34 | Cleric (30) | | | Level 35 | Cleric (31) | | | Level 36 | Cleric (32) | STR +1 (33) | Great Strength III (34) ESF: Abjuration | Level 37 | Cleric (33) | | | Level 38 | Cleric (34) | | | Level 39 | Cleric (35) | | Epic Mage Armor ESF: Divination | Level 40 | Fighter (2) | STR +1 (35) | Epic Prowess |
Legendary:Read Transmutation Tome Level 41 | Cleric (22) | | | Level 42 | Cleric (23) | STR +1 (36) | LSA: Tumble | Level 43 | Cleric (24) | | | Level 44 | Cleric (25) | STR +1 (37) | | Level 45 | Cleric (26) | | LWF: Greataxe | Level 46 | Cleric (27) | STR +1 (38) | | Level 47 | Cleric (28) | | | Level 48 | Cleric (29) | STR +1 (39) | LSA: Listen | Level 49 | Cleric (30) | | | Level 50 | Cleric (31) | STR +1 (40) | | Level 51 | Cleric (32) | | Legendary Reflexes | Level 52 | Cleric (33) | STR +1 (41) | | Level 53 | Cleric (34) | | | Level 54 | Cleric (35) | STR +1 (42) | LSF: Abjuration | Level 55 | Cleric (36) | | | Level 56 | Cleric (37) | STR +1 (43) | | Level 57 | Cleric (38) | | LSF: Divination | Level 58 | Cleric (39) | STR +1 (44) | | Level 59 | Cleric (40) | | | Level 60 | Cleric (41) | STR +1 (45) | Great Strength IV (46) |
Final Stats:STR: 46 DEX: 8 CON: 14 WIS: 20 INT: 14 CHA: 6 | Concentration: 40 Craft Armor: 3 Craft Weapon: 7 Discipline: 43 Hide: 5 Listen: 63 Spellcraft: 26 Tumble: 60 | AB: 93 | AC: 125 | Fortitude: 62 Reflex: 59 Will: 61 |
Paragon:Level 63 | PWF: Greataxe | Level 66 | PSF: Abjuration | Level 69 | PSK: Abjuration | Level 72 | PSF: Divination | Level 75 | PSK: Divination | Level 78 | |
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Post by desocupado on Jan 22, 2015 15:40:42 GMT
I wanted to try and build a BK with max STR and w/o Spell Pen feats to add in an extra foci instead. It will probably be best to go the more typical standard route of Spell Pen feats until after double demi and/or artifact. I would use SP artifact with L80, x2 Demi, +16 Gear, and Arti your SP bonus will be +9. I was also trying to find a "good" use for the Half-Cloud Giant subrace besides another striaght forward Pally, BG, or CoT. This is a Battle Clerc... To achieve what you described reincarnate a doubledemi Blackguard, hence you can dump wisdom to base 10, I think. ---- Given your character isn't specially useful for Elysium, wouldn't you get more by having fighter 4 (and weapon spec) + paladin 1 splash?
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 22, 2015 16:36:21 GMT
lol oops I reuse templates and forget to change everything. Though I am not sure what you mean by useful in Elysium. I can't tell if you are saying Wep spec will make it useful in Ely or if your just suggesting Wep Spec being an improvement option. I wanted to make mine evil and you need 2 BG levels for saves so that rules out Wep Spec unless I went for less than 35 Cleric levels but I lose an attack from buffs IIRC.
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Post by Torin on Jan 22, 2015 17:19:51 GMT
Some ideas: - I would go 4 Fighter + 1 Paladin for Ws too. However, if you prefer BG then maybe 3 BG +2 Fighter for another Fighter. BG cost also Power attack + Cleave.....just saying. bonus feats. - Domains: Why War? My BK has: Fire (Energy buffer, Wall of Fire) Strength (Stoneskin, Divine Power as lvl 3 spell) - Greater Ruin has -5 CD because of only 35/55 Cleric levels. My BK has Epic Mage Armor for Epic Dodge instead (need only 26 Spellcraft) - 20 Conc is enuff imho. Increase CW (and CA) instead. - Enchantment would be nice to fit in. And Extend Spell.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 22, 2015 18:49:02 GMT
Yeah probably will swap 4th BG for 1 Ftr will add 2 Fort saves and extra feat probably move IC to that level and take Ext Spell in place of IC. While it is -5 DC I find in the DC still high enough to handle that one mob you want gone quick. I am not sure what a good conc score is for casters but I would move any points I could into Listen first. I like Enchantment but it is somewhat common on caster clerics and it is unlikely this will be the sole cleric in a party so I find it doesn't offer enough. I know Trans is basically useless outside of IoF but I think the epic is best taken by a BC. I honestly don't recal what I selected those domains but there is a lot of choices it might even have to do with planned edits to domains that haven't been done if even finalized.
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Post by desocupado on Jan 22, 2015 19:54:02 GMT
Fighter 4 give you 2 extra feats, even without the weapon spec family (which you should have).
BG has just use poison feat and the ability to stay evil with bonus saves. (hence can participate in Elysium runs) Paladin 1 gives the same amount of saves bonuses if you are good.
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You really should get the reflex save feats (reflex +2 and reflex+7) instead of Str+2 And, as far as weapon choices go, get Halberd/Scythe instead, the dual damage type is worth it.
Why do you have listen 23? Blind fight should be more effective. (unless you intend to use paragon skill points)
BTW you didn't list your epic spell tome - I assume it's transmutation.
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Greater ruin is not worth it with -5 DC (CL 55)- go for Devastating critical instead. The skill points are bettewr used on CW/CA or Listen.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 22, 2015 20:22:02 GMT
I am done with the BG+Ftr vs Pally+Ftr arguement I wanted evil so evil I am and BG fits evil and now that I went for 2 Ftr I am only gaining 1 more feat.
I won't change what is up there but yes swapping 2 STR feats for Reflex feats is good and I would reccomend it but the saves shown are no demi & +12 gear and this build with 2x Demi L80 & +16 gear gets another 10 to all saves.
Greataxe is the weapon I chose no one following the build is forced to keep the same weapon I chose it for one reason being I have a couple of the BUR Armor with OC/DC Greataxe.
23 Listen with SF & ESF + other boosts will at least equal BF and PL will allow one to max listen. If you feel 63 Concentration is more than enough move points from it into Listen.
I thought I did maybe in a revision I lost it but yes it is Trans.
Devastating Critical cost more than 1 feat, requires 3, so replacing Greater Ruin with that is not really an option. Greater Ruin DC is CL+5 so it is DC 60 with CL55 is usable enough but if I were to replace it it would be either Epic Mage Armor for Epic Dodge & Concentration + Discipline bonus or Epic Warding for 65/+20 Damage Soak.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Jan 22, 2015 21:31:41 GMT
Sounds like a great build for people who want to lie down and watch other people kill things any time an erinyes, spinagon or malebranche pops up. Ie. Dex is way too abysmally low.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Jan 22, 2015 21:42:25 GMT
Drop both strength and wis by 1 and con by 2. Increase dex by 6. Drop GR. Pick up EMA. Drop trans book and pick up ench. It will help a lot with your low ac to be able to stack girding with magic vestment.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Jan 23, 2015 5:21:11 GMT
This is my thematic Battle Cleric build but mostly seems solid only concern is Reflex saves could consider dropping 2 STR/1 AB to pick up some Reflex save feats. Base Race: Half-Orc Sub-Race: Half-Cyclops STR: +5 DEX: -2 CON: +2 WIS: +5 Free Feats: SF & ESF Listen Starting Stats:Level 1 | Cleric (1) | STR: 16 (21) DEX: 14 (12) CON: 10 (12) WIS: 14 (19) INT: 14 CHA: 6
| Power Attack Domain: Protection Domain: War |
Pre-Epic:Level 2 | Cleric (2) | | | Level 3 | Cleric (3) | | SF: Abjuration | Level 4 | Cleric (4) | STR +1 (22) | | Level 5 | Cleric (5) | | | Level 6 | Cleric (6) | | SF: Divination | Level 7 | Cleric (7) | | | Level 8 | Cleric (8) | STR +1 (23) | | Level 9 | Cleric (9) | | Cleave | Level 10 | Cleric (10) | | | Level 11 | Cleric (11) | | | Level 12 | Blackguard (1) | STR +1 (24) | WF: Greataxe | Level 13 | Blackguard (2) | | | Level 14 | Blackguard (3) | | | Level 15 | Cleric (12) | | Lightning Reflexes | Level 16 | Cleric (13) | STR +1 (25) | | Level 17 | Cleric (14) | | | Level 18 | Cleric (15) | | Extend Spell | Level 19 | Cleric (16) | | | Level 20 | Fighter (1) | STR +1 (26) | GWF: Greataxe |
Epic:Level 21 | Cleric (17) | | EWF: Greataxe | Level 22 | Cleric (18) | | | Level 23 | Cleric (19) | | | Level 24 | Cleric (20) | STR +1 (27) | ESF: Discipline | Level 25 | Cleric (21) | | | Level 26 | Cleric (22) | | | Level 27 | Cleric (23) | | Great Strength I (28) Armor Skin | Level 28 | Cleric (24) | STR +1 (29) | | Level 29 | Cleric (25) | | | Level 30 | Cleric (26) | | Great Strength II (30) GSF: Abjuration | Level 31 | Cleric (27) | | | Level 32 | Cleric (28) | STR +1 (31) | | Level 33 | Cleric (29) | | Great Strength III (32) GSF: Divination | Level 34 | Cleric (30) | | | Level 35 | Cleric (31) | | | Level 36 | Cleric (32) | STR +1 (33) | Great Strength IV (34) ESF: Abjuration | Level 37 | Cleric (33) | | | Level 38 | Cleric (34) | | | Level 39 | Cleric (35) | | Epic Mage Armor ESF: Divination | Level 40 | Fighter (2) | STR +1 (35) | Epic Prowess |
Legendary:Level 41 | Cleric (22) | | | Level 42 | Cleric (23) | STR +1 (36) | LSA: Tumble | Level 43 | Cleric (24) | | | Level 44 | Cleric (25) | STR +1 (37) | | Level 45 | Cleric (26) | | LWF: Greataxe | Level 46 | Cleric (27) | STR +1 (38) | | Level 47 | Cleric (28) | | | Level 48 | Cleric (29) | STR +1 (39) | LSA: Listen | Level 49 | Cleric (30) | | | Level 50 | Cleric (31) | STR +1 (40) | | Level 51 | Cleric (32) | | LSF: Abjuration | Level 52 | Cleric (33) | STR +1 (41) | | Level 53 | Cleric (34) | | | Level 54 | Cleric (35) | STR +1 (42) | LSF: Divination | Level 55 | Cleric (36) | | | Level 56 | Cleric (37) | STR +1 (43) | | Level 57 | Cleric (38) | | Great Strength V (44) | Level 58 | Cleric (39) | STR +1 (45) | | Level 59 | Cleric (40) | | | Level 60 | Cleric (41) | STR +1 (46) | Legendary Reflexes |
Final Stats:STR: 46 (60) DEX: 12 (26) CON: 14 (28) WIS: 19 (33) INT: 14 (28) CHA: 6 (20) | Concentration: 63 Discipline: 43 (127 maxed) Hide: 5 Listen: 43 (117 maxed) Spellcraft: 26 Tumble: 60 Craft Armor: 6 | AB: 93 | AC: 137 (with MV/Girding, SH and +18 Defl) | Fortitude: 62 Reflex: 61 Will: 60 |
Paragon:Level 63 | PWF: Greataxe | Level 66 | PSF: Abjuration | Level 69 | PSK: Abjuration | Level 72 | PSF: Divination | Level 75 | PSK: Divination | Level 78 | Paragon Levitation |
I made some slight adjustments, you can take them or leave them but this is how I would build it.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 23, 2015 15:19:12 GMT
AC is not calculated with boosts from SH or anything above normal BUR AC nor does it calculate the bonus from spells like Magic Vestment or Shield of Faith though I believe they only provide a boost if AC is randomized down except maybe for Shield and maybe with a +1 CL Ego can they reach any actual improved AC over normal. I have lots of tanks with low DEX or STR and not many Unis and don't have that much of a problem though this is the first with low Reflex leaving it vulnerable to Spinners which as I have already suggested myself dropping 2 STR feats to take Reflex save feats. I was originally thinking the lowered penalty feat for final paragon feat but levitation has some nice function to it. I won't run and hide from the DEX checks but I won't be the first to rush in on them either I thought about picking up Enchantment and droppings maybe Divination since it is really just for Gate, Miracle, and Serendipitous Forethought but it is hard to give up Gate. I would rather have +16 to my tanks weapon than +4 AC, might be less depending if Magic Vest & GotF stack, I could opt for Enchantment over Abjuration and either leave at ESF or bump to PSF and pick up the Divine Fervor Paragon which would be nice.
On Domain choices I like Protection I think it has good benefits and they fit to a battle cleric and to this build only other domains that also fit to it and provide anythign are Strength and War I can see War domain spells buffing pets and Strength gives Divine Power a level earlier which can help.
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Post by desocupado on Jan 23, 2015 16:00:33 GMT
Magic Vestment - Grants a +(CL / 3) enhancement bonus to the targeted armor or shield, to a maximum of +10. - At CL41, grants +(CL / 4) enhancement bonus to medium armor, heavy armor, and shields, +1 per Abjuration focus, reaching +20 at CL60 with PSF Abjuration. =18 + 2 (Guird) = AC 20 on both armor and shield. --- Epic Mage armor sounds good indeed - tough any spell casting in melee range will "waste it" due attack of opportunity. (unless you use defensive casting) --- Yeah probably will swap 4th BG for 1 Ftr will add 2 Fort saves and extra feat probably move IC to that level and take Ext Spell in place of IC. While it is -5 DC I find in the DC still high enough to handle that one mob you want gone quick. I am not sure what a good conc score is for casters but I would move any points I could into Listen first. I like Enchantment but it is somewhat common on caster clerics and it is unlikely this will be the sole cleric in a party so I find it doesn't offer enough. I know Trans is basically useless outside of IoF but I think the epic is best taken by a BC. I honestly don't recal what I selected those domains but there is a lot of choices it might even have to do with planned edits to domains that haven't been done if even finalized. Well DC 60 greater ruin (CL 55+5) is about the same DC of a double demi sorcerer's disintegrate (actually it's less). I'd say it's not worth the skill points since Craft armor is very advisable on a Str tank.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 23, 2015 16:25:28 GMT
The other reason I don't pick up Enchantment is I think it is becoming a more common foci for caster clerics and it is unlikely this will be in a party w/o a caster cleric.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Jan 23, 2015 17:29:42 GMT
It's more common because it's better. Aside from the epic transmutation is useless for you as BC. Since BC is an archetype built primarily for defense the extra 4 points of ac is going to be much more useful for you than +16 gmw. And besides most bards and clerics nowadays will have +15 gmw to hand out anyway.
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Post by desocupado on Jan 23, 2015 20:11:17 GMT
For the last feat, I'd be stuck between Paragon Skills I (Adds 30 skill points, to dump into CW or CA) or Inherent Levitation (if you can't access a ring of the planewalker)
Also, since you can provide Greater Restoration onto yourself, you can afford to dump all 60 Paragon skill points into something (if you haven't already)
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