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Post by desocupado on Mar 16, 2015 3:44:00 GMT
My intention is to do some research on those underused classes. On less know fact is, even with BAB 15, Divine power grants you an additional attack, as if you had BAB 20, making you bonus progression at CL 55 0/-5-/10/-15 (4 attacks, since one bonus attack comes from haste) However ab can be a challenge without 3 levels of a full bab class. Discuss anything or mention a pertinent spell to improve this research. The big questions are: - Do these classes provide anything unique?
- Are they really useful?
- Wouldn't a Herald of storms or a slinger/turner bring more to the party instead?
Battle cleric -Abjuration- Greater dispell (require High CL on top of Abjuration focus) Energy immunity Magic Vestment (very useful for shields) guirding stacks with it Epic Aegis - Cl/6 % Imm and 30/- res] Permanency - party is unslagable Mage Armor (with Domain) - pretty useless with heavy armor you'll use and due magic vestment existence. -Divination- Gate & Augury & Neutralize Poison (requires Div) Miracle Serendipitous Forethought -Conjuration- True Rez & Blade Barrier Monstrous regeneration (conjuration helps a little) Epic : Annihilation Div dmg (with DC 1/2) and stun Paragon: Summon Sphere of Annihilation -Illusion- Entropic shield more concealment against ranged Creeping doom with vuln infliction Epic Visage of Doom Paragon Time flies - 85% & Epic dodge party -Enchantment- GMW Epic Guirding off faithful - Casters Clerics almost always have this (redundant) Paragon Divine power on the party (useless) // prob don't stack with regular one -Other- Battletide - SR based on Str, radius much larger than regular one Aura against Allignment - Critical stun and daze imm if enough Str Heal Harm (str helps on touch attack) Uef Greater Restoration (requires Extend spell to be useful) Entropic shield (usable without Illusion) Endure elements Foundation of Stone Remove curse, disease, fear and break enchantment Energy buffer (requires fire/earth/protection domain) Epic Mage Armor Evaluation and discussionBattle clerics are Str tanks have good defenses due their buffs, and wielding a weapon + shield, they have good ac, for Str tanks.
I'd Pick Abjuration and Divination schools at PSK as they synergize most with those attributes.
Enchantment is redundant with a real cleric, and since a battle cleric lacks the utility a real one can bring (Prayer, Implosion, Heartbane/Destruction) it's not realistic to think just a large Battletide is enough.
Illusion is slightly tempting with the paragon spell, and creeping doom utility, but the the CL reduction makes it not as good for summons.
Conjuration faces a similar problem, blade barrier is pretty good, but summons aren't and the epic is even worst.
While it's possible to make a pure cleric 60, the benefits aren't worth it.Since they lack have unimpressive damage, and needs feats, a fighter 4 paladin 1 splash wields most benefits. A Half-Elf Pharlan is probable the best choice for such, with ESF discipline + rank 43.One of their main strengths is the ability to keep yourself under GR all the time, removing both layer penalty and inflictions.Stormlord -Divination- Premonition & Augury & Neutralize Poison & Pristine word - Div Epic Primal Cataclysm - AoE Primal + always slow Paragon AoE Amnesia (DC) -Conjuration- Epic Shroud of Nature = concealment for party Paragon call Weaponspren - CL/5 phy to party (upt to 16) and 150% to self -Abjuration- Energy immunity (require Abjuration) Fountains AB/restoration/Elemental Resistances (require Abjuration) Epic Nature's Frailty - SR-20 Paragon Rejuvenation Field - heals 50% per round -Illusion- Creeping doom (requires Illusion for unique effect) Epic Natural AC+20 Paragon DC based Disintegrate (not useful here) - with always KD (that ignores immunity) -Transmutation- Epic Elemental Shunt - real druids have this Paragon Kendrick's Foul Conversion - chicken no DC -Evocation- No spell is of any use Epic Immutable Force - Casters Druids almost always have this (so it's somewhat redundant - but still good) Paragon Burn the Veil - A soup (that might not be implemented?) if it has a DC, it's not very good. -Other- Epic Mage armor (Natural ac) Epic Warding (Soak) Extend spell (SoV) & Abjuration buffs Heal/Harm (weapon finesse helps touch attacks) Aura of Vitality Dodge AC & stats (mostly for summons) Tortoise Shell, Foundation of Stone & Energy Buffer Mass camouflage (60% concealment -5% per 5 levels below 60) Storm tower - if bad ranged guys SoV - Grants Divine power buffs & Physical damage (?) = CL-40 Nature's Balance CL/4 i.e. max-15 (compared to 17 from regular druid with CL 60 + PSF Trans) Shock weapon add 2 additional dice
Evaluation and discussionStormlords are notable for being Dexters with a SR drop aura, with nearly the efficiency of a regular Druid.
Their spells provide some defensive boosts, and some physical (wasn't it electricity dmg?) damage boost. Uniquelly, they can tank any form of KD with the Tortoise + Foundation combo.
The epic spells are quite beneficial, but they create a conundrum. ESF Trans + NB's SR drop is good enough to fulfill most of Druid's role in hells (effectively missing just Drown, since other cores can do other effects).
Conjuration Paragon spell is extremely useful and perhaps only usable by stormlords. The Epic is quite common for caster druids (tough it isn't required). So i'd go with it.
Abjuration also provides high utility - the epic spells are extremely useful for bosses and minibosses, and it provides several spells. I'd also go with it.
As dexters, a monk splash is a must have for Wisdom ac while dual wielding. Since saves tend to be good, a fighter splash may provide some needed feats, but it's tempting to keep splash at 4, for 14 SR drop NB aura, unless you have a CL ego. Undying would make a interesting choice, as Able learner helps with Discipline, Listen and tumble.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 9:58:32 GMT
In terms of are they useful?... depends on the skill of the caster versions in the party of even lack of caster types. Stormlord aura isn't huge and so the tanks need to be around the high SR creatures which can make things a bit tricky. However, if there is a caster druid in the party that is even remotely good at balancing creatures then well, the Stormlord isnt really needed, sure it can do nice dmg with PWS and Conj Paragon but there are other tanks that can make stat checks easier and do more damage still. Ya, the buff they get is only for themselves and gives 2 more dice on electric then usual.
It goes the same with the Battle Cleric, huge BT aura is nice but i would consider it a bonus on this type of character. The crit immunity is nice, on top of decent damage and very good self buffs they provide a sufficient tank so long as the user is good at management of buffs. If they can remember or notice when buffs are going down etc... then it becomes a different story, they are very reliant on these buffs to stay up and deal damage. Going Abj focus and getting 100% elem immune buff is a nice bonus and Permanency is awesome if the party has poor disc. Although, there are other tanks out there i.e. Barb, Staffy that do more damage and have a better AB so disarming is actually viable on harder mobs. Taking disarm on a battlecleric would be ok to disarm lesser creatures when cursed but not really man enough to be a consistent disarmer of PF's and above.
Overall, both of these classes are useful in certain types of parties that lack the casters. I wouldnt say they are an alternative as they have pretty different jobs to do and different goals. Having a real ploder is always a winner since trash mobs will be no more, and having a proper druid means Kocrachons will die easily instead of being beaten down slowly xD. Having both of them in the party is a very nice combination though.
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Post by woqued on Mar 16, 2015 10:35:52 GMT
Battleclerics:
Selfbuffing tank that can go str without qualms -so they deal very formidable getting 2 attacks at clr 35, without taking cloak slot from azz wrap or boots slot from HS, while having option to go 4 ftr for even higher damage - and still maintaining good tankiness even while 2handing thanks to Gate, GR, Girding and other protective buffs - and providing some (less than pure caster) key Cleric epics and paragons. Downside being buffmanagement and rather harsh stat/feat requirements from subraces: 40 + str for crit immunity and reasonable AB / damage, wisdom for spells, int for skills and the usual dex/con for checks and saves... It's pretty rough to fulfill for Hells and beyond with non-BUR subraces. But, a bursubrace and double demihood...
TLDR: Battleclerics are uncommon because it's drowsy to keep buffing them and the spellslot management is demanding in some ways, not because they are weak. They are extremely strong. In my opinion! They are vastly superior to most other tanks.
Stormlords on the other hand, having to go the Dexer route unless lvl 80 demi++ toon, have a harder time working out reliably. Dexers simply don't deal enough damage, guiding them towards dualwielding which misses out on the shield defenses, requires tons of weapons to go with which again require tons of buffs to do their thing. This one having to invest heavily in wisdom while forced to have decent levels of str/con/int and high dex, makes it mostly a buff/epic bot with low damage and hopefully enough dex for the highest dex checks. Granted, this utility put together in a meatshield that doesn't fall prey to checks can still be arguably make for one of the best DEX tanks due to the utility it provides. But a tank should deal damage and it is hard to pull off a stormlord that delivers here. In tank-heavy lineups conj psk stormlord might be superb though like mentioned before.
Now I don't think these can totally replace the caster variant effectiveness wise, but they can make a party work that would otherwise fail or be a "slog" without the "real core". Also.. Two sets of cleric/druid epics is utterly broken and allows you to breeze through spawns rather carelessly while still succeeding at the hardest areas in the game. GG immute, miracle, seren and the rest.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 16, 2015 11:32:36 GMT
Overall, both of these classes are useful in certain types of parties that lack the casters. I wouldnt say they are an alternative as they have pretty different jobs to do and different goals. Having a real ploder is always a winner since trash mobs will be no more, and having a proper druid means Kocrachons will die easily instead of being beaten down slowly xD. Having both of them in the party is a very nice combination though. Well you can level drain a korach too. I've seen a Storm lord successfully making up for the lack of druid in hells, when he had transmutation epic. I think the person also picked Immute to better fulfill D role. But is it worth to go that way? It's pretty rough to fulfill for Hells and beyond with non-BUR subraces. But, a bursubrace and double demihood... Well, how does demihood help those? If I'm not mistaken you need base Wisdom 19 (without demihood) to cast spells. Is this info wrong? Both classes lack Discipline, Listen and Tumble, however druid have an easier time due 4 skill points per level and better saves (main stat gives the only weak save). ------------------------------------------------------------------ Battleclerics: TLDR: Battleclerics are uncommon because it's drowsy to keep buffing them and the spellslot management is demanding in some ways, not because they are weak. They are extremely strong. In my opinion! They are vastly superior to most other tanks. I suppose you should compare them to Paladins, Staffmasters, Cots, Barbarians and maybe some other classes with Harper scout. And they always win in utility (but never get enough ab to be good at disarm), and suffer in dex checks. Stormlords on the other hand, having to go the Dexer route unless lvl 80 demi++ toon, have a harder time working out reliably. Dexers simply don't deal enough damage, guiding them towards dualwielding which misses out on the shield defenses, requires tons of weapons to go with which again require tons of buffs to do their thing. This one having to invest heavily in wisdom while forced to have decent levels of str/con/int and high dex, makes it mostly a buff/epic bot with low damage and hopefully enough dex for the highest dex checks. Granted, this utility put together in a meatshield that doesn't fall prey to checks can still be arguably make for one of the best DEX tanks due to the utility it provides. But a tank should deal damage and it is hard to pull off a stormlord that delivers here. In tank-heavy lineups conj psk stormlord might be superb though like mentioned before. So mostly a damage issue? Now I don't think these can totally replace the caster variant effectiveness wise, but they can make a party work that would otherwise fail or be a "slog" without the "real core". Also.. Two sets of cleric/druid epics is utterly broken and allows you to breeze through spawns rather carelessly while still succeeding at the hardest areas in the game. GG immute, miracle, seren and the rest. So redundancy and failsafe buttons (immute & miracle). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- What about spell schools? does anyone have another consideration not included in this list? (I've added Evoc to stormlords) |
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Post by woqued on Mar 16, 2015 12:25:33 GMT
BC: Demihood helps since you reach the required amounts of dex/str/con to shine even after surviving the dreaded investment in int / wisdom. Before those your damage, and more pressingly check tanking capability will be underwhelming. Also, "both classes lack disc, listen and tumble" - in Battleclerics part this is made less horrible by Half-Elf, in BC's case Pharlan is really almost too good to pass. LSA:Listen covered, take Blooded & LSA:Tumble. This is where the Demi-iterations, bur subs and paragon stats come into play. Cleric is str based > will be enough disc with lvl 40 dump + 50 + gr + str modifier. Could even play around with abyss caster boots for phys immunity, slots and esf:disc, but I probably wouldn't. It's an option for the super slag-prone zones like nessus and shed. A Doubledemi Pharlan cleric at lvl 66?+ Won't suffer from dex checks, can wield 2h weapon and still tank. Asmo belt, dex check paragon feats, they're all there to be utilized. Immute & Miracle aren't only failsafes, I use miracle as an offensive spell more than defensive, and the ressing portion of it being the least important effect - especially after PSK:Div. Stormlords... Yes, mostly damage issue. But they are also very feat-tight, skilltight and every other kind of timid. Compared to a real druid it just looks way too inferior. Now if you compare it to another dexer... I think they're all neutered and timid, but stormlord being less so.  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 13:17:11 GMT
ED'ing Kocrahons takes just as long as beating em down for the record , whereas drowning usually pops them. These classes aren't meant to do the same stuff as a cleric or druid so you shouldnt expect them too. It's just flavorful tanks that have something interesting to them, and so you can go "Hey im dropping their SR just by standing next to them" and everyone will be like... cool In theory what you've got here is two melee's which can tank 1 stat check well pre x2 lvl 80 etc... Aswell as this they both lack a decent ab meaning the disarm route isnt very viable on these against pretty much all tier 1 classes. Specially since you tend to not max Great Str/Dex feats. And i wouldn't say stormlords lack in damage, because with PWS and PSK Conj you get a very respectable damage, most of all when you start dual wielding but they lack in AB meaning the character kinda sucks pre paragon and uber gear in terms of beating stuff down. I tend to believe if a character isnt what it needs to be at lvl 60 it's not that good, considering paragon levels were intended for EE and Limbo (correct me if im wrong). |
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Post by Yojimbo on Mar 16, 2015 13:23:18 GMT
I am building a BC and already have a Battle Druid and I love my Battle Druid he has played the Druid role on a few Hell runs it isn't the ideal scenario but it can help quite a bit. I know that my Battle Druid has lowish damage but consistently stands at least middle of the pack or better with regards to damage. I did select Trans, Evo, Conj for him and took Conj to PSK leaving the other two as ESF as they are for nothing more than the epics. I do agree Abj is a very good option I just find if I want to be able to and need to be able to stand in as the sole Druid I could only swap out Conj for Abj and then I am missing out on on of the best Paragon Spells for a Battle Druid. I have seen a few who have made STR based Battle Druids(very tough as you need 19 WIS, 30 DEX, and then probably 44+ STR for passable AB) and most I see dual wield as you don't need Shield that much as you are likely to have Monk for WIS AC and also for Monk Weapons. I do think that Battle Clerics could use just a little more maybe another spell or two with a nice effect for DEX druids.
I can't really speak to BC just yet but I can't wait to have mine leveled up.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 13:30:09 GMT
Battle Clerics are amazingly solid tanks, it's funny that no-one plays them - the only endgame Battle Cleric I've seen someone play was basically mass-spawning Abyss maps and AFK-tanking while being completely indestructible and dealing decent damage, AND still carrying useful party abilities.
I don't know if there's a single run in the mod where I would choose to have a Stormlord when I could have a standard caster Druid instead (even if there were already multiple Druids in the party, pretty sure a 3rd Druid will add more value to any party than a Stormlord).
Stormlords are basically as rare as Battle Clerics, but every time I've seen one in a party they have been extremely underwhelming and low impact.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 13:45:10 GMT
Battle Clerics struggle to get close to both stat checks though with the base Wisdom need, so i see them being unable to securely tank things like Balors and Para Malebs. On top of this, Battle Clerics require a fair amount of paragon levels and pretty good gear to be an effective tank imo. On top of already managing those buffs (although not like you cant see when gate has run out ). |
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Post by desocupado on Mar 16, 2015 15:53:03 GMT
I don't know if there's a single run in the mod where I would choose to have a Stormlord when I could have a standard caster Druid instead (even if there were already multiple Druids in the party, pretty sure a 3rd Druid will add more value to any party than a Stormlord). Stormlords are basically as rare as Battle Clerics, but every time I've seen one in a party they have been extremely underwhelming and low impact. That's why abjuration is kinda tempting. On top of PSK conj (for party dmg), wth that school SLs could provide some utility by adding LOTs of fonts and energy immunity, unlike regular druids who have a hard time fitting them in the book. And, of course, the good SR-20 epic. In theory what you've got here is two melee's which can tank 1 stat check well pre x2 lvl 80 etc... As well as this they both lack a decent ab meaning the disarm route isn't very viable on these against pretty much all tier 1 classes. Specially since you tend to not max Great Str/Dex feats. Well, you can't deny the temptation of having more epic spells / epic spells. Still, I'm having hard time reaching AB 95 in 60/+12 as it is. If I have enough AB to hit stuff, I'd go for more defense and utility. Yeah, I try to take level 60 as mark. There are a few builds that need x2 justified (bards, turners, some uni/glass canon tanks) |
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Post by woqued on Mar 16, 2015 18:11:23 GMT
Are midget smiters and warchanters bad though? No, but they sort of are babies of paragon levels. Yet at lvl 80 - or nearing it - they are some of the strongest tanky things around. Still can't justify them as bad, since they wipe the floor with plenty of other builds that do mediocre at 60 x0 in comparison to other classes and terrible at 80 x5 (relatively). Same goes for these.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 18:18:18 GMT
So ya, they scale better... and i would say a standard dex warchanter is actually good pre demi anyway. Unlike many other quasi tanks. Stormlords aren't anything like chanters so cant really compare them, SR drop aura is decent size, but not enough to be better then casting a few balances.
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Post by chirality on Mar 17, 2015 0:54:35 GMT
On top of this, Battle Clerics require a fair amount of paragon levels and pretty good gear to be an effective tank imo. What's the problem, sounds just like most of your tanks Anyway you focus so much on disarming, no one cares unless it's a balor, and real parties have real shifters for that (not useless tanks with uber disarm ab). We're talking toons that stomp even deep layers of hell on a regular basis lacking 1 or more cores, that can land attacks and spells without curse, disarming every PF you come across looks cool but unless you get "caught in superior ravening malebranche's whirling blade" crit, the only toons concerned of undisarmed monster hitting it is a fragile toon that shouldn't be that close anyway. And don't say it helps the casters, cuz by fragile toons I don't mean mages with unhittable conceal or druids with uber AC. Anyway #2, all stats aside, it's the the point that it's a solid Str tank with cleric buffs (for both itself and party). Like any other cleric that lacks the offensive arsenal of a ploder/heartbaner, naturally it can't replace one in hells/abyss; however like any other cleric CC toon, it brings a lot to a party due cleric defensive arsenal. Offensive-wise a BC will bring far more value and is a lot more fun to play with (as a core) than any popular ranger or assassin like we see every run. Why? Because it's not a dual wielding trashkiller pathetically competing for aoecasterkills and begging inconsequential and undeserved weapon buffs: it buffs its own weapons (and everyone else's, helping other casters enjoy less hassle/pressure and helping other tanks feel less helpless), it ignores the trash that casters easily remove because it's a bludgeon Str smasher, and unlike every other tank in the game, it eats inflicts for breakfast. |
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Post by desocupado on Mar 17, 2015 2:37:28 GMT
Offensive-wise a BC will bring far more value and is a lot more fun to play with (as a core) than any popular ranger or assassin like we see every run. Why? Because it's not a dual wielding trashkiller pathetically competing for aoecasterkills and begging inconsequential and undeserved weapon buffs: it buffs its own weapons (and everyone else's, helping other casters enjoy less hassle/pressure and helping other tanks feel less helpless), it ignores the trash that casters easily remove because it's a bludgeon Str smasher, and unlike every other tank in the game, it eats inflicts for breakfast. CoT can also eat some inflictions, but clerics are wayyyyyyyyy better, so that's a good thought. Also they can use foundation of stone (LSF Div should cover poison immune even without artifact for some male tanking) You know, half moly assassin can use lightflails (but should use assassin daggers) and pick oc/dc, do rogue stuff and disarm with plate of ulxuran + true strike. (still squishy, but have enough utility to make up for it) |
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Post by chainlink on Mar 17, 2015 8:00:39 GMT
On top of this, Battle Clerics require a fair amount of paragon levels and pretty good gear to be an effective tank imo. What's the problem, sounds just like most of your tanks Anyway you focus so much on disarming, no one cares unless it's a balor, and real parties have real shifters for that (not useless tanks with uber disarm ab). We're talking toons that stomp even deep layers of hell on a regular basis lacking 1 or more cores, that can land attacks and spells without curse, disarming every PF you come across looks cool but unless you get "caught in superior ravening malebranche's whirling blade" crit, the only toons concerned of undisarmed monster hitting it is a fragile toon that shouldn't be that close anyway. And don't say it helps the casters, cuz by fragile toons I don't mean mages with unhittable conceal or druids with uber AC. Anyway #2, all stats aside, it's the the point that it's a solid Str tank with cleric buffs (for both itself and party). Like any other cleric that lacks the offensive arsenal of a ploder/heartbaner, naturally it can't replace one in hells/abyss; however like any other cleric CC toon, it brings a lot to a party due cleric defensive arsenal. Offensive-wise a BC will bring far more value and is a lot more fun to play with (as a core) than any popular ranger or assassin like we see every run. Why? Because it's not a dual wielding trashkiller pathetically competing for aoecasterkills and begging inconsequential and undeserved weapon buffs: it buffs its own weapons (and everyone else's, helping other casters enjoy less hassle/pressure and helping other tanks feel less helpless), it ignores the trash that casters easily remove because it's a bludgeon Str smasher, and unlike every other tank in the game, it eats inflicts for breakfast. Yawn |
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