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Post by desocupado on Mar 30, 2015 10:29:11 GMT
To have different spell focus - besides the gimmick builds like battle-caster it's usually is possible to have at least a single different school from the standard. One variant can be made for several reasons, a "what if" curiosity is a good place to start. Another is the question "why do these new spells feel useless?". For people with inclinations as above, it might be interesting to pick less popular schools. Trying such things help ease up party formation since when you want to tag a core, runs tend to be regularly made. PS: If you played with uncommon schools, please post about itFor instance you could drop wildly popular schools, that aren't absolutely necessary, just to spice the metagame: (alphabetical sorting)Class | Drop which school | Possible substitute(s)
| Arcane | Evocation Illusion Necromancy Transmutation
| Abjuration Conjuration Divination Enchantment
| Bard | Illusion Necromancy
| Abjuration Conjuration Evocation Spell penetration
| Cleric | Necromancy
| Abjuration Conjuration Transmutation
| Druid | Necromancy Abjuration
| Conjuration Divination Enchantment Illusion
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Don't forget you could go around squishy-tanky variations, by putting LSA tumble, discipline, armor skin, craft armor or bonus to save throws feats instead/for a school.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 30, 2015 10:42:05 GMT
Reserved for spell listing (under progress) - Only spells that require spell focus rank to be usable are listed.
- Spells marked with * can be used without the spell focus, but are significantly more effective with the focus
Color Codes: - Yellow = absolutely required / above everything else in the same category
- Green = very good spells you can/will use often
- Red = not very useful in end game
- Purple = not implemented
Arcane School
| Spells
| Epic/Paragon spell
| Abjuration
| Mage Armor (1) Lesser Dispell (2) Dispell Magic (3) Dismissal (5) Greater Dispell (5) Energy Immunity (6) Banishment (7)* Mordenkeisen's Disjunction (9)*
| Mass Spell Destruction - Dispells, Drop some SR and reduce concealment Drawmij's Preclusion - Banishes all summons and block next summon (is it good against abyss fights?)
| Conjuration
| Grease (1) Lesser Orb (1) Web (2) Melf Acid Arrow (2) Flurry of Fume (2) Snowball Swarm (2) Stinking Cloud (3) Mestil's Acid Breath (3) Flame Arrow (3) Evaard's Black tentacles (4) Orb (4) Cloudkill (5) Vitriolic Sphere (5) Planar Binding (6) - is it? Greater Orb (7) Gate (9)
| Bigby Swarm - Hold several enemies with bigbies hands (which is ironical, as they are evocated) Mordenkainen's Psionic Cascade - Large psionic damage fog
| Divination
| Feeblemind (5) Powerword: Stun (7) Premonition (8) Powerword: Kill *(9)
| Contingency (auto rez buffed) Rary's Exacting Lens - removes criticla immunity (but keeps immunity to mortal strike)
| Enchantment
| Sleep (1) Charm person (1) Blind/Deafness (2) Confusion (4) Euphoric Gaze (4) Charm Monster - Daze (4) Hold Monster (5) Mind Fog (5) Rebuke (7) Antipathy (7) Mass blind and deaf (8) Mass charm person (8) Dominate Monster/Maze (9)
| Ensnare True Denizen (Enslaves a power Balor) Otiluke's Refracting Field (halves kickback damage for the party for 6 turns)
| Evocation
| Gust of wind (2) Cloud of Bewilderement (2) Ball of Lightning (5) Firebrand (5) Cone of Cold (5) Shout (5) Galvanic Cone (5) Freezing sphere (6) Chain lightning (6) Thunder claps (7) Delayed Fireball (7) Static Field (7) Prismatic Spray (7) Sunburst (8) Incendiary Cloud (8) Bigby's Clentched Fist (8) Polar Ray (8) Detonate (9) Meteor Swarm (9)
| Missile Barrage (numerous force missiles) Karsus's Avatar (+2 DC, auto empower, maximize and extend spell for 1 turn)
| Illusion
| Color Spray (1) Shadow conjuration (4) Greater Shadow conjuration (5) Shades (6) Vortex of Teeth (4) Phantasmal Killer (4) Rainbow Pattern (4) Ethereal Visage* (6) Weird (9)
| Starfire (aoe magical damage + 2 round kd) Otto's Merciless Nightmare (Mass double duration Maze without DC)
| Necromancy
| Negative energy Ray (1) Ray of Enfeeblement (1) Ghoul Touch (2) Contagion (3) Fear (3) Negative Energy Burst (3) Vampiric touch (3) Enervation (4) Wrack (5) Circle of Death (6) Undeath to Death (6) Finger of Death (7) Horrid Wilting (8) Energy Drain (9) Wail of Banshee (9)
| Death of Magic (stops enemies form using spells for 4 rounds) Bigby's Astral Grasp (Mass death magic and ressurrect allies with bonus health per killed enemy)
| Transmutation
| Slow (3) Viscid Glob (4) Bestow Curs (4) Flensing (5) Mass Haste (6) Disintegrate (6) Flesh to Stone (6) Reverse Gravity (7) Temporal Stasis (8)
| Transmute Barrier (creates a stonewall circle - out of flavor) Tenser's Perfect Mantle (Grants Mag imm % and many levels of spell absorption)
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Bard School
| Spells
| Epic/Paragon spell
| Abjuration
| Energy Resistance (6)
| | Conjuration
| Grease (1)
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| Divination
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| Enchantment
| Mind Fog (5)
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| Evocation
| Warcry
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| Illusion
| Gembomb
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| Necromancy
| Fear
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| Transmutation
| Amplify (1) Keen Mass Haste (6)
| UUU
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Post by desocupado on Mar 30, 2015 11:05:43 GMT
Reserved for spell listing (later) Color Codes: - Yellow = absolutely required
- Green = very good spells you can/will use often
- Red = not very useful
- Purple = not implemented
Cleric School
| Spells
| Epic/Paragon spell
| Abjuration
| Banishment Energy immunity (6)
| Aegis (add exotic immunity) Permanency (party is un-slaggable for 3 turn)
| Conjuration
| Mass heal xxx wounds Blade barrier (6) Storm of vengeance (9) True Ressurection (9)
| Annihilation (aoe stun, blind & dmg) Summon Sphere of Annihilation
| Divination
| Augury Gate (9)
| Miracle (fear enemies, grants tmep hps + ressurrect party) Serendipitous Forethought (for 2 turns party always take 20 on saves + enemies suffer a -12 save curse song effect)
| Enchantment
| Rebuke
| Guirding of faithful (shield & armor +2 ac) Divine Fervor (casts divine power on party)
| Evocation
| Word of faith Sun beam Implosion (9)
| Conversion Moonfire (damage + 15% miss chance)
| Illusion
| -Creeping doom (Plant domain) -Silence (as enemy spell) -Phantasmal killer (death domain) -Circle of doom (also needs necromancy)
| Visage of Doom (summon) Time Flies (for 2 turns the party gains epic dodge + 85% concealment)
| Necromancy
| Heartbane (5) Enervation (5 - death domain) Destruction (7) Energy Drain (9)
| Eternal Return (auto resurrect + gs) Eradicate (kill any non-boss - no dc)
| Transmutation
| -Barskin (Plant domain) - need cl 60 and psf for +18 -Creeping cold & Static charge -Bestow curse -slow (travel domain) -entangle (travel domain)
| Instruments of Faith (+16 to all equipped weapons) Tempered Arms (Party's weapon hits don't heal)
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Druid School
| Spells
| Epic/Paragon spell
| Abjuration
| Fontain of Restoration Energy Immunity Spell Resistance
| Nature's Frailty (SR -11+(3*focus) Rejuvination Field (heal party for 50% for 15 rounds)
| Conjuration
| Grease (1) Ice lance (3) Viscid Glob (3) Primal Vengeance (3) Vine Mine (5) Stone Hold (6) Bombardment (8) Storm of Vengeance (9) Elemental Swarm (9) Planar Periarch (9)
| Shroud of Nature (CL concealment for everyone) Call Weaponspren (CL/5 damage bonus for everyone +50% more for self)
| Divination
| Neutralize Poison Pristine Word Augury Premonition (8) Unname (9)
| Primal Cataclysm (mass positive damage and slow) Forest for the Trees (mass amnesia)
| Enchantment
| Euphoric Gaze (4) Imprisonment (7) Antypathy (8)
| Call Earthchild (pos/neg summon) Reclamation (non bosses enemies lose petrificaton immunity)
| Evocation
| Galvanic Cone (5) Fissure (7 ignores SR) Firestorm (7) Sunburst (8) Earthquake (9)
| Immutable Force (5round party wide invulnerability) Burn the Veil (ectoplasmatic soup)
| Illusion
| Vortex of Teeth (5) Spectral Stampede (7) Creeping doom (7)
| Veil of Myst (20 natural ac + amnesia immunity while morphed) Eye of Ghaunadaur (mass disintegrate + kd even on immune foes)
| Necromancy
| Poison (3) Pesticide (4) Defoliate (4) Slay Living (5) Finger of Death (8)
| Dust to dust (brief mass petrification with no save) Stolen life Force (+2 to all stats for party)
| Transmutation
| Entangle (1) Heated Body (2) Caustic Gel (2) Call of Stone (5) Drown (6) Crumble (6) Reverse Gravity (8) Nature's balance (8) Cast in Stone (9)
| Shunt (CL elemental immunity for party) Kendrick's Foul Conversion (polymorph target into a useless chicken)
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Post by Torin on Mar 30, 2015 11:08:43 GMT
Sphere of Annihilation is implemented (but you must rest to unsummon it or Armageddon effect )
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Post by ScrewedUp on Mar 30, 2015 11:28:11 GMT
Don't you love playing a specific role, but your level 80 core with multiple prince wins and demi x10 don't need anything? Guess what , we do, and we sure as hell know the possible variations, so what's the point of this thread other than to make some very terrible suggestions and get people to troll and flame. Just close it, for the greater good.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 30, 2015 11:40:13 GMT
Sphere of Annihilation is implemented (but you must rest to unsummon it or Armageddon effect ) Didn't find it in any update thread / see in-gmae - what about the other two? B's Sonic Conjunction D's Burn the Veil
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Post by Matt on Mar 30, 2015 11:42:32 GMT
Burn the Veil isnt implemented yet.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 30, 2015 11:43:40 GMT
Guess what , we do, and we sure as hell know the possible variations, so what's the point of this thread other than to make some very terrible suggestions and get people to troll and flame. Just close it, for the greater good. If you do know, then list it. If you don't care, don't post. The thread is a gather of knowledge - tables can be thrown right into wiki, to make the viability (or lack of it) of XXX's school more explicit. If you don't want to make a second non-cookie cutter caster, and prefer another tank, go for it. If you'd do two character with the same build, do it. But flaming/trolling won't inactivate people make more core characters they can play well (instead of a novelty fail tank).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 12:11:10 GMT
I can see that this thread is made with good intentions but honestly it seems sort of redundant, the only people who have maxed out cores and play them well (hint: there are not many) are already VERY aware of which schools they need and which ones they could drop to create a more 'spicy' toon - a lot of these 'spicy variations' are not even just for variance, but specific styles like Caster Bard or Abjurer Sorcerer, so I'd hesitate to even call them 'substitution' toons.
To be blunt, I feel this kind of discussion is only useful for the kind of players that SHOULD be playing a 100% cookie-cutter core (ie: ignoring this thread entirely) and playing it as much as they can into the endgame; many players would agree a lack of this is the central problem which is slowing down server activity - NOT a lack of veterans refusing to play spicy/nerfed cores.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 30, 2015 16:00:38 GMT
Let's say you love playing you druid, and he got 80, or got about 5 demi cicles, even tough abyss cycles aren't showing up. Or let's say 2 demi cycles is plenty for a cleric. Why not make another one with different stuff? Besides, if you start another one, you will push a few hell cycles into formation with good class balance. ... but specific styles like Caster Bard or Abjurer Sorcerer, so I'd hesitate to even call them 'substitution' toons. Yeah, caster bard is nearly extinct nowadays, but its still uniquely useful. This abjuration Sorcerer, what does it mean? Getting just getting high ac + abjuration spells? Can't it do damage? Can't it instant kill?
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Post by excruciator on Mar 30, 2015 16:26:50 GMT
I agree with others that this is indeed posted with the best of intentions. However I think you're making a number of flawed assumptions.
Firstly, cores aren't rare because multitudes of people have played them to the absolute maximum level in tags and experience. Cores are lacking in number because people are scared to play a more complicated and responsible role. Until more people take the responsibility upon themselves to learn to play such classes, you'll still be seeing "Nessus needs ABCD plz guyz" all too often. And really guys, it's not that bad. Anyone who will get angry at you for being a "noob caster" isn't worth playing with anyway.
Alternatively, people can whine about the imaginary "gap" between casters and tanks all day and try to get the mod homogenised even more in an attempt to "ease party formation". The more blurred party roles become, the dumber the mod gets. I am aware a number of people would be happy if endgame runs involved 10 fighters all point/click attacking all run, but the server probably wouldn't last much longer under such circumstances.
Secondly you're assuming people with such a high amount of playtime on casters have never thought about alternative schools, have never tested or reincarnated with such schools. Level 80 and all hell/abyss tags is a lot of playtime. You're also assuming they don't know by proxy what will work and what won't purely by playing and knowing the mod and being experienced in the class in question. This is partly why people get a little frustrated with topics like this. It's equal parts preaching to the choir and patronising to suggest the people who already have played these roles to a massive extent are the ones who should be galvanised into action. Again, I believe your intentions are good, I just don't think your concept is sound.
It's pretty much just pseudo-intellectual bloviation, like much theory craft of this type. What you really need is for more people to be selfless and play for the party instead of their own tags. Or, try and get over their fear of learning a new and responsible role (I don't know, isn't that concept fun? Even if you suck at first?).
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Post by desocupado on Mar 30, 2015 17:00:58 GMT
Firstly, cores aren't rare because multitudes of people have played them to the absolute maximum level in tags and experience. Well, I wanted to renew interest of those. I always wonder the level 80's are aiming for. Cores are lacking in number because people are scared to play a more complicated and responsible role. Until more people take the responsibility upon themselves to learn to play such classes, you'll still be seeing "Nessus needs ABCD plz guyz" all too often. And really guys, it's not that bad. Anyone who will get angry at you for being a "noob caster" isn't worth playing with anyway. I assume people weren't afraid of "complicated" classes. I suppose shifter-like isn't for everyone. For instance I consider spontenous casters "simple to play". (and harder to build) Perhaps I do need light on this subject. Alternatively, people can whine about the imaginary "gap" between casters and tanks all day and try to get the mod homogenised even more in an attempt to "ease party formation". The more blurred party roles become, the dumber the mod gets. I am aware a number of people would be happy if endgame runs involved 10 fighters all point/click attacking all run, but the server probably wouldn't last much longer under such ciscumstances. Actually 10 (threader + lash) would be dumber (and could work, oddly enough). Maybe people need to compete on other stuff like: Most attacks received, least avg damage taken, most dodge rate. Secondly you're assuming people with such a high amount of playtime on casters have never thought about alterjnative schools, have never tested or reincarnated with such schools. Level 80 and all hell/abyss tags is a lot of playtime. You're also assuming they don't know by proxy what will work and what won't purely by playing and knowing the mod and being experienced in the class in question. I'm the one that don't know. I have a few intuitions on some stuff. For instance, I like how my alternative sorcerer plays out, even tough it can't karsus. This is partly why people get a little frustrated with topics like this. It's equal parts preaching to the choir and patronising to suggest the people who already have played these roles to a massive extent are the ones who should be galvanised into action. Again, I believe your intentions are good, I just don't think your concept is sound. So there are about 2 issues here? 1 - poor wording / sounding like a complain 2 - ego/pride I wanted to hear on people who already diverged from cookie cuter a bit. // maybe this should have been clearer. It's pretty much just pseudo-intellectual bloviation, like much theory craft of this type. What you really need is for more people to be selfless and play for the party instead of their own tags. Or, try and get over their fear of learning a new and responsible role (I don't know, isn't that concept fun? Even if you suck at first?). Well, the way I see it people have 3 objective carrots: 1 - XP 2 - Loot 3 - Tag The subjective carrots would go like: 1 - Relationship and kinship 2 - Curiosity 3 - Competition and feeling of empowerment My assumption was that those 2 products would be useful: 1 - table with possible schools to drop/pick (this one I think I did correctly) 2 - spell lists per school (mostly due the need I have on sorc's spell selection, but also because it helps with above) // I'm completing this eventually The classification of spells is a bit hard. I'm trying to be conservative.
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Post by Matt on Mar 30, 2015 17:32:41 GMT
I for one think playing cores is pretty damn fun purely because of how powerful they are and the versatility they have. Although non Bard/Sorc CC's get annoying sometimes having to change spells a lot. If the statement that people are too scared or being deterred from playing cores from lack of experience maybe you should instead be trying to form a guide for general how to play etc... of them. Another little thing, cant remember who or what exactly was said but i believe people were saying no need to balance classes out, cores are fine being better or something... dont take my word for that though as i didnt check back. Whats the point of having so many classes when only a few are any good? After playing many MMO's and such i've found that they try to balance classes and allow them to do similar things in different ways. However thinking about it, not really sure the mechanics of NWN would allow for such usefulness in tanks other than giving them stuff like ED on hit, aoe dmg, more versions of UUU, weapon buffs on tanks, instakill weapon and such. (Although i could see stuff like that being OP if multiple tanks could do that at once meaning its very hard to balance out.) *edit - after reading what i said... meh classes are fine as they are. As long as people still enjoy playing here
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Post by excruciator on Mar 30, 2015 17:47:12 GMT
Actually 10 (threader + lash) would be dumber (and could work, oddly enough). I think you missed my point... Maybe people need to compete on other stuff like:Most attacks received, least avg damage taken, most dodge rate. Maybe people need to get over the mindset of needing to compete. That is a good portion of the problem. I'm the one that don't know. I have a few intuitions on some stuff. For instance, I like how my alternative sorcerer plays out, even tough it can't karsus. This makes more sense, and I commend you for trying to increase your knowledge. However, the way your first post is worded is quite unequivocally directed at people who already have casters who have "done it all" in an attempt to get them to make a second duplicate. For the you, and others who aren't sure, play the classes and see what works for you. I wouldn't play a sorcerer without karsus if I had the choice, as I'd see it as choosing hipster ideals over practicality. It works for you though. So there are about 2 issues here? 1 - poor wording / sounding like a complain 2 - ego/pride I wanted to hear on people who already diverged from cookie cuter a bit. // maybe this should have been clearer. I'd say the context of the post is the problem. If you want to hear from people about tertiary schools it's best just to ask rather than suggest they do something they more than likely already did. Well, the way I see it people have 3 objective carrots: 1 - XP 2 - Loot 3 - Tag The subjective carrots would go like: 1 - Relationship and kinship 2 - Curiosity 3 - Competition and feeling of empowerment Sorry, but this is, again, pseudo intellectual bloviation. I appreciate it is perhaps an arena that interests you, but this is not a game design issue. It is a playerbase issue, and a symptom of declining numbers and a general sense of entitlement which has been prevalent for a number of years. My assumption was that those 2 products would be useful: 1 - table with possible schools to drop/pick (this one I think I did correctly) 2 - spell lists per school (mostly due the need I have on sorc's spell selection, but also because it helps with above) // I'm completing this eventually The classification of spells is a bit hard. I'm trying to be conservative. Long story short, unless you have a lot of experience on a caster you are going to be a detriment to your own and your parties progress by taking niche spell schools. Most require a keen knowledge of mob vulnerabilities to utilise properly. By the time an individual is ready to use niche schools, they probably already have a good idea of experiments they'd like to make. In essence, if you have to ask, you should probably play more until you can make a reasoned judgement yourself. I don't mean to make that sound harsh by the way, I just personally feel too much rigid "guidance" can be very negative. I still have memories of "GREATER RUIN IS A MUST HAVE ON ALL CASTERS" and "TOUGHNESS IS A MUST TAKE FEAT FOR BARBARIANS" and "THE MINIMUM CON SCORE I'D HAVE ON ANY MAGE IS 18". You can still find gems like this going back a few years on this very forum. I wouldn't ever provide any guidance further to the core open race builds Xiayu and I made, which are stepping stones to people developing their own understanding and ideas. Incidentally, too much hipster "I went with unconventional schools to be cool" sentiment is just as bad.
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Post by excruciator on Mar 30, 2015 17:48:23 GMT
If the statement that people are too scared or being deterred from playing cores from lack of experience maybe you should instead be trying to form a guide for general how to play etc... of them. Funny you should mention it really, it's a shame no one made a group effort to do exactly that for each core class in the open race section.
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