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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 5, 2015 14:44:53 GMT
I didn't say drop Con by 4. I said drop it by 2 and increase Wis by 1. Then drop one of your great wis feats and move your ESF to a bonus druid feat. It frees up an epic feat. Now whether you use that to offset dex lost from changing artis or just adding something more useful than a great wis feat is up to you. But investing two epic feats just to get your wis even since you started with 18 is just silly.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 5, 2015 14:54:06 GMT
Noticed the build doesn't have armor skin. Oversight or intentional? Would be a good feat to pick up if you fixed the wasted epic feat mess.
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Post by Paradoom on Apr 5, 2015 18:48:33 GMT
Armor skin? Really? I could have understood to fit in EMA instead, but a toon that ends up with midst 140 ac while dual-wielding is not in need of that. And still there remains the issue of -1 ab, which is a no go for this character.
Don´t get me wrong. The idea to even put con arty on it is nice and something I like as well. But not at the cost of AB.
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Post by Matt on Apr 5, 2015 18:50:29 GMT
Battle Clerics get roughly the same, maybe even less AB than this and they do fine. I'd say no chance of death vs Poison is better then 1 ab/ac.
Still, makes use of an underused arti at least.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 5, 2015 19:19:23 GMT
No one said anything about giving up dex or AB. My suggestion to replace your wasted Great Wis feat with Armor Skin, EMA or some such was only at the expense of 2 starting con, not at the cost of any dex. That's a separate discussion. But I'm just going to stop offering suggestions for improving this clearly perfect build. Clearly there is no way anything in it could be better.
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Post by Paradoom on Apr 5, 2015 22:09:22 GMT
No need to get all sour. Your suggestions are just not thought through to the end, and I show you what mistakes you made. If you cannot handle the counter-critics don´t do yours.
And yes you loose dex by not taking the dex-arty = -1 AB. That is a huge loss on this character.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 5, 2015 23:14:27 GMT
Not sour, just recognizing a lost cause.
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Post by Paradoom on Apr 6, 2015 10:51:22 GMT
So someone (in this case me) dares to look beyond your´s and other's small horizon of a con artefact. Creates and playes a toon that is successful with quite some utility , sturdy and good damage output. I even agree with you that a con arty would be nice, but not really well to put on nor absolutely needed and explain in detail why it is so problematic and simply wanted you to gimme a solution to that dilemma. At least you have two simple small minded fans.
In the end it boils down to this: Use a con arty with the said problems of your suggestions (pick up ema then at least) or use a dex arty and have a better ab, ac and listen (hit rate) if you wanna keep the character like I have build it.
But since I´m a nice guy at the end of the day: Your suggestion works, if you go with a thunderborn and make it a pure tank without direct party-support via immute. It ends up with the same ab but less hp/con.
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Post by Paradoom on Apr 6, 2015 10:56:08 GMT
I think attack progression is calculated incorrectly, since you BAB is 15. Main hand 0/-3/-6/-9/-12 Off hand 0/-5 Bonus (haste, sovx3) = 0/-5/-10/-15 So I think it should read: Sorry desso that I did not address that earlier. The storm avatar works like divine power. At CL 45 and 55 you get one bonus attack. But it also grants you the same attack progression as a tier 1 bab class as long as you have 3 of that taken pre-epic. You get under that buff the progression I have written down. Your bonus attacks do not get the -2 ab from dual-wielding. That said, I would prefer your attack progression, because it would give your weakest attack a slightly better ab without the -2 (sadly it doesn't work like that).
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Post by tank on Apr 6, 2015 12:25:43 GMT
At least you have two simple small minded fans. wow, racist. what did fans ever do to you?
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Post by desocupado on Apr 6, 2015 15:33:16 GMT
I think attack progression is calculated incorrectly, since you BAB is 15. Main hand 0/-3/-6/-9/-12 Off hand 0/-5 Bonus (haste, sovx3) = 0/-5/-10/-15 So I think it should read: Sorry desso that I did not address that earlier. The storm avatar works like divine power. At CL 45 and 55 you get one bonus attack. But it also grants you the same attack progression as a tier 1 bab class as long as you have 3 of that taken pre-epic. You get under that buff the progression I have written down. Your bonus attacks do not get the -2 ab from dual-wielding. That said, I would prefer your attack progression, because it would give your weakest attack a slightly better ab without the -2 (sadly it doesn't work like that). I din't know free attacks ignored dual wielding penalty. However you are wrong on a few points there sir. With Divine power you get additional bonus attacks as if you have bab 16-20. thus, another bonus attack at -15, on top of +1/+2 at CL 45/55 and haste. Your BAB is still 15 - i.e. any additional BAB you'd gain through DP goes to magical bonus ab (cap +20 with song, magic enhancement/others). However, you LBAB gets to 15 instead of 12, due 3+ tier 1 splash. That means the correct would be: Main hand -2/-5/-8/-11/-13 Off hand -2/-7 Bonus (haste, sovx3) = 0/-5/-10/-15
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Post by Paradoom on Apr 6, 2015 21:53:57 GMT
You are right. I messed this up with an older build of mine. The attack progression is indeed as you have pointed out. Ill correct that. Thanks good find.
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Post by arek on Apr 16, 2015 18:22:17 GMT
For those of you advocating the CON arti here....Don't forget that druids (and thus stormlords) get poison immunity as a class feature. I'm not sure what all this protects against, but I'm quite sure Viper Trees aren't a problem for my stormlord, and she does NOT use the CON arti (she can't - her AB is at least as low as this one's). In fact, on her most recent reincarnation I actually burned a STR arti on her, since she can choose between that and DEX, and the STR arti gives a better immunity. -- arek
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Post by chirality on Apr 17, 2015 1:56:03 GMT
It's true that you're not claiming to know what druid poison immunity does or doesn't work against.
However, you are creating the false impression that because you don't have any problems with viper trees, and because druid poison immunity might protect against them, you don't need to wear the con arti.
I'm not sure if that was your intent, but in short, your post indicates that a useful counter-argument to "stormlord should wear con arti to be immune to more instakills" is "my stormlord doesn't notice it, and has druid poison immunity, so con arti isn't as good as +2 Dex/Str".
I can't address the subjective value of being immune to as many instakills as possible (since some would prefer +1 AB over being a better tank), but I think it's safe to say on an objective basis that being immune to more instakills is favorable to being immune to less instakills.
I've seen several mentions recently of people unsure what exactly druid poison immunity protects against, but each time, it seems to indicate the possibility/hope of it replacing con arti.
I don't know why this urban legend still hasn't died (despite lengthy history of debate/testing/even public posts by DMs), but it really needs to.
If you choose not to wear con arti, then you leave yourself vulnerable to these instakills.
That's really all there is to be said about it.
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Post by buddhamind on Apr 17, 2015 2:07:57 GMT
If you choose not to wear con arti, then you leave yourself vulnerable to these instakills. That's really all there is to be said about it. If he isn't being instakilled, then why does the Con arti matter?
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