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Post by Raj on May 9, 2015 3:26:06 GMT
Deso, thx for the detailed explanation but I am running two druids atm, and they both are 39/1 without a single save feat so obviously I value that CL 60 with ego above everything else, and think saves are totally overrated on casters (especially when they are PL and balance is a long forgotten word). Does it mean we should suggest a newbie to play such stuff? Think about his needs.
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Post by desocupado on May 9, 2015 10:30:59 GMT
A wearable ego is way more rare than a BUR subrace, we should clarify that.
The druid, as a caster, can tank due good AC, but don't need to do so for long periods. Since he can just go in, nb, and go out.
If he has to tank, the saves would be somewhat helpful.
<edit: Druids do need to get into mobs while they might be not debuffed, so good AC is mandatory)
--Saves--
Druids have at 60 with +12 stat (at base str/dex/con 10 and Wisdom 20+20+10)
Fort 47
Reflex 41
Will 74
Hells have several fortitude checks around DC 55 60 65. That'd translate into 65%/40%/15% of successful saving.
This include domination(rare), death/implosion spells, non magical death, poison, damage, paralysis.
Each +2 Constitution improves this by +5%
-So a base 12, with double demi and +16 gear goes to +25%
-Add in PL levels, another +25%, eventually
-better subraces like Rilmani get con+4, for a +10%
But then we consider paragon, superior and elite mobs with a -10%/-20%/-30% chance on their saves checks (i think).
The Paladin splash pulls reflex into a better place too, tough not enough at first (after demix2 it does get good).
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(If it was a cleric, it would be another thing, as you need to to keep foes in BT)
Off topic, how long does BT debuff lasts after leaving it's area of effect?
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Post by randallflagg on May 9, 2015 13:32:56 GMT
OP here  ! It seems my simple question has spawned a bit of discussion. Let me start by saying that while I really do appreciate everyone's opinion there is one major thing you must keep in mind. This is my first toon! Im so green to HG that my text is literally green,lol. That being said...
Rajah is right, I don't even know what a "CL ego" is let alone where to get one. I'm just following the guide thus far and only one person cared to mention the last lvl bard splash to get discipline and tumble up to the their final stats. So you see how it could be confusing! Let me be clear, I have had a few discussions ingame with a few people about this build and am very interested in losing the final bard splash and using paladin+monk splash instead. This is something to worry about down the road I suppose as I already took monk at 20 per the guide. A few answers to some noob questions would be helpful for the future and remember, I'm still trying to learn. This would be a reincarnation scenerio i'm assuming and to limit the "what if scenerio's" lets just assume there is NO subrace change. 1.Paladin splash is for saves and ac? Any other benefits? 2.If I did take paladin what feats/feat would you guys recommend and what skill dumps would you recommend? |
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Post by woqued on May 9, 2015 15:47:23 GMT
Take Paladin level as the earlier "dump" since your skilldumps are to tumble/disc and paladin offers only disc, not tumble. Take Monk at level 39 or 40 to allow dumping into tumble/disc.
Going with pal splash frees you feats : this allows you to go for two extra feats on Legendary Levels (you can take GSF: Transmutation before epic levels instead of the Dauntless) -> you can take one great wisdom feat earlier. This opens up two legendary spell focuses for you - LSF Conj and LSF Evoc, the improved DC to these schools is extremely welcome and needed.
Edit: Paladin splash is for the saves. You trade 1 sp for +5 all saves (8+12=20, mod at +5 without demihood). This will be -1 to relevant saves (fort/reflex) compared to taking the feats, but still well worth the trade.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 21:07:34 GMT
Take Paladin level as the earlier "dump" since your skilldumps are to tumble/disc and paladin offers only disc, not tumble. Take Monk at level 39 or 40 to allow dumping into tumble/disc. Going with pal splash frees you feats : this allows you to go for two extra feats on Legendary Levels (you can take GSF: Transmutation before epic levels instead of the Dauntless) -> you can take one great wisdom feat earlier. This opens up two legendary spell focuses for you - LSF Conj and LSF Evoc, the improved DC to these schools is extremely welcome and needed. Edit: Paladin splash is for the saves. You trade 1 sp for +5 all saves (8+12=20, mod at +5 without demihood). This will be -1 to relevant saves (fort/reflex) compared to taking the feats, but still well worth the trade. Definitely agree with this, 38 Druid/1 Paladin/1 Monk (Paladin at 20, Monk at 40) is excellent as a first toon for the server - in fact, my first main toon was this exact build and it served very well, being able to contribute through multiple demi-cycles and Prince-wins. Since you already took the Monk Level, probably just take the Paladin level at 40 and you can fix the leveling order later via reincarnation. In terms of feats the Green Mage build is pretty outdated, make sure you take every Spell Penetration feat as well as Necromancy, Transmutation and Evocation (you can get away with only ESF: Evocation, but definitely want PSK: Necromancy and PSF: Transmutation). ^ ESF = Epic Spell Focus, PSF = Paragon Spell Focus and PSK = Paragon Spell Knowledge (an upgrade to Paragon Spell Focus which allows you a special 'paragon spell') Further focus in Evocation can be nice for certain spells, other possible focuses are Conjuration and Abjuration, but IMO the three above are the most important. I'd say it is probably worth trying to take the toon to Level 50 (Level 50 unlocks the use of UR sub-race books) and try to get your hands on the Fallen Angel subrace. Then you can re-incarnate into the correct build (Paladin at 20, Monk at 40) with a vastly improved subrace (Fallen Angel gets +5 WIS and free Levitation), and that toon will work well until you are able to acquire a set of BUR books. |
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Post by woqued on May 9, 2015 21:19:11 GMT
What Poli said is correct, but he let the necro cat out of the bag a lil soon.  not really relevant until UR / BUR races and paragon levels thus left unmentioned : all necro spells are DC based instakill spells (excluding the fancy Stoning epic) that are hard to make use of on a 0x open subrace toon, and it was mentioned that "no subby change". But yes, necro at PSK level is extremely good and with proper DC it will be if not mandatory then damn near so, since it allows you to rock both Hells and Abyss, and also provides a rather freaky strong PSK spell. Conjuration might actually be better for LL farming though (esp if you tread alone) as you get boost to CC soups, Elemental Swarm and Storm of Vengeance and the conceal is helpful. Anyway don't mean to drown you in information: honestly almost anything works in this game on caster classes as long as you max your main attribute, although people will consider you insane if you do something very unorthodox like not taking transmutation on druid. Hope this thread has provided you with valuable information - now all that is left is learning the rest via playing. |
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Post by randallflagg on May 10, 2015 3:18:20 GMT
@woqud It has been extremely helpful! The more I play and learn the more certain things make sense. I realize that a lot of this stuff will be learned through doing and ingame experience but a glimpse of what is possible is certainly welcome. @poli I appreciate your directness as well as your glossary ie (psk=) so helpful for a person who hasn't mastered all of the lingo yet. Your mention of the fallen angel sub also gives me a goal for the future. I look forward to taking this toon to the point where I can reincarnate into something viable for the community and group and hope you are all as helpful then as you are now  It's a long road but the journey thus far has been a lot of fun. |
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Post by drunkenboastor on May 23, 2015 18:01:36 GMT
My druid builds which splash monk, splash monk at 20 for the +2 reflex and +1 fort. For a not elf, 39/1 build the only real difference is a discipline of 41 at 80 instead of 43. Druids are not skill point tight if skip animal empathy, which is useless in end game group play.
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Post by desocupado on May 23, 2015 21:40:55 GMT
Well, I'd avoid Necromancy on open subby due lower dc. while psk: necromancy is very good, most spells have low dc (thereof aren't of much use for an open subrace druid) Full wisdom, spell penetration and transmutation are mandatory. And at least ESF evocation (it's worth to maximize evocation). On the additional school I'd consider either Conjuration, abjuration or illusion in this order. Conjuration is very useful for a first druid. It gives CL concealment to everyone in the party, and provides a good all purpose damage spell (elemental swarm) that is good anywhere and have high DC. The are more damage spells like earthquake, that provides exotic damage. The Conjuration soups are amazing for disabling foes, storm of vengeance is very reliable, due dc, and the others can be used in any fight. Abjuration would be a second option, and illusion a third. But Conjuration is the better of the three for a first timer. Abjuration might be slightly easier to use than the other 3. As far on what to suggest or not for begginers, well the topic question was already answered. I wasn't considering his situation but rather druid building in general, in fact Randal wasn't even participating in the derail. 1.Paladin splash is for saves and ac? Any other benefits? 2.If I did take paladin what feats/feat would you guys recommend and what skill dumps would you recommend? 1 - Paladin is basically for saves, as monk have all their skills and more. It has 1 additional perk - Heavy armor proficiency - that isn't really useful. (edit: Martial weapon proficiency helps a bit between levels 21-37) 2 - taking paladin at 21 helps with saves, you can increase discipline then to help against some discipline checks (like some knockdown abilities). For feats, if the question pertain Green Mage, you should get Empower spell instead of dauntless (might need to swap a few spell focus feats around) and Legendary Spell Focus Evocation instead of legendary valor. Then you'd get another feat at 21 (as it was Empower Spell), which would be swapped for another Great Wisdom, allowing you to pick Legendary Spell Focus Conjuration instead of the last Great Wisdom in LL. Your end build would have 21 +3 (tome of spell knowledge) +4 (epic druid 38) = 28 feats 4 Legendary Spell Penetration 12 Legendary Spell penetration Evocation, Transmutation and Conjuration 10 Great Wisdom X 2 Extend and Empower spell |
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Post by randallflagg on May 26, 2015 4:09:55 GMT
*update*
Just to kind of update how it's going for me and to continue the discussion. Currently lvl35 but that should jump a lvl or 2 once I clear these lvl35 tags.
@descocupado
About the necro focus, yeah i understand that is a no go with open sub, I understand that is something to consider later after subrace upgrade. Still nice to have an idea of where to go for the future.
For schools, as I'm still following the guide, i currently have epic focus in transmute and conjuration. Storm of Vengeance is kinda my "goto" lvl 9 spell, pretty handy except for very high reflex save opponents. Haven't been using Elemental Swarm too much I should try it out more....Gaze of Stone and Drown also quite handy for the right opponents.
Would def like to have Evocation added !!! I use a lot of spell slots from this school as I do solo quite a bit(starting to get really hard lol, not possible for boss tags anymore) I use them quite a bit and I can definitely feel the weakness due to not having focus's.
Green mage has both extend and empower in the feat progression.
Unless I hit a wall or something I think I can soldier on till 40 then reincarnate. As the guide originally called for bard dump at end(which i'm not doing) i dumped some skill points into lore instead which gave a nice little boost to some of my elemental damage spells.
So the gameplan for now is to make it to 40 and reincarnate...paladin @ 20 and monk @40. Will want transmute,conjuration,evocation. As it gets closer I will definitely need some help with the level progression when reincarnating, any help would be appreciated. Couple questions below.
1. Taking into consideration the guide calls for bard at lvl 40 the guide mentions an alignment change at lvl39. Will that still be needed if going paladin? Can someone shed light on alignment change? Not where(i know where it's done) but why it's needed.
2. Guide puts a lot of points into animal empathy. As drunken boaster mentioned I rarely use it even now. I think there is 1 or 2 spells it boosts? Anyways just curious if it is really needed and if it has an effect on something I'm not considering.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 5:16:16 GMT
1. Taking into consideration the guide calls for bard at lvl 40 the guide mentions an alignment change at lvl39. Will that still be needed if going paladin? Can someone shed light on alignment change? Not where(i know where it's done) but why it's needed. 2. Guide puts a lot of points into animal empathy. As drunken boaster mentioned I rarely use it even now. I think there is 1 or 2 spells it boosts? Anyways just curious if it is really needed and if it has an effect on something I'm not considering. 1. Many classes have alignment restrictions (more of an issue in vanilla NWN than on HG). Druid requires Neutral, Monk requires Lawful, Paladin requires Lawful Good and Bard requires non-Lawful. If you start off Lawful Neutral, you'll be able to take Druid and Monk levels, but will need to change to Good at Level 20 (for the Paladin level) and then back to Lawful Neutral for the rest. If you wanted to go Bard, you'd need to add Chaotic points until you were no longer Lawful. 2. Animal Empathy does affect some minor things IIRC, but nothing vital for Druids now (I think). Don't think you really need it. Edit: Also yes, DEFINITELY take Lore. I think the Green Mage guide was written before the Lore boost was added to HG, now it is definitely a vital skill for Druids. |
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Post by chainlink on May 26, 2015 7:01:30 GMT
Paladins and BG are the only classes (currently at least) where an alignment restriction caries over to LL with respect to benefits for them such as the ability to cast spells and the save boosts. I guess this was implemented because of the potentially huge benefit to saves you can gain for these classes which is outside the normal +20 cap effectively freeing up multiple Feats that you would have to use for saves. For all other classes with restrictions such as Monk and Druid once you hit LL alignment changes have no real affect and do not prevent levelling in that control class. This is one of the reasons I suggest taking the Neutral Gaobin tag option as you can be Neutral on at least one of the alignment planes no matter what you do on the other.
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Post by desocupado on May 26, 2015 10:32:34 GMT
To clarify:
Feat progression
1: SF Conjuration
3: GSF Conjuration
6: Spell Penetration
9: Greater Spell Penetration
12: Extend spell
15: Empower Spell
18: SF Transmutation
21: Great Wisdom I
24: Great Wisdom II
25: Epic Spell Penetration
27: ESF Conjuration
29: Great Wisdom III
30: Great Wisdom IV
33x2: Great Wisdom V and VI
36: Great Wisdom VII
37: GSF Transmutation
39: ESF Transmutation
(Read Tome of spell knowledge: Evocation at 41+ - ask in-game where it is if you don't find when doing level 40 tags)
42 LSF Transmutation
45 Legendary Spell Penetration
48 LSF Conjuration
51 Great Wisdom VIII
54 Great Wisdom IX
57 LSF Evocation
60 Great Wisdom X
Skills
Skills: 4 (druid base) +1 (half-elf bonus) +2 (intelligence) = 7 at base rank 63 at level 60
Tumble 40
Discipline 43
Craft Armor 40 (add only at LL)
Lore 63
Parry 63
Concentration 63
Heal 63 (helps with healing spells - add only at Legendary levels)
Animal Empathy 63 (used to charm animal foes and help with Creeping doom initial damage)
Animal Empathy
It increases the damage of creeping doom, a physical damage spell without save, which is quite nice.
On top of that, it can be used to dominate some foes in several areas, including the nine Hells, Beholder's Lair (level 50+ area) and Hive (level 55+ area).
It is also very useful between 10-30 due to a specific bird ally.
Since one spell gives a huge magical skill bonus to animal empathy it's easy to capitalize on this.
In the end it's not mandatory, but quite helpful.
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Discussion: it's possible to fit in Greater Ruin and spell craft (to make it usable twice per day), by dropping extend spell and animal empathy.
Doing so isn't advisable, due clerics being more than able to cover targets it would be useful against, and immuteble force (Epic evocation spell) covering the situations when it would be really useful.
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Post by randallflagg on May 27, 2015 21:48:58 GMT
I'm still not getting the alignment thing...srry for being dense but these two statements seem to be in conflict....or im misinterpreting. I'm reading chain as saying that if you splash in paladin you are required to maintain lawful good to keep the save boosts in LL. If so how are the save boosts maintained once you go back to neutral to continue druid lvls. I'm obviously misinterpreting something. Can one of you dumb it down even more for me Awesome! Thank you desocupado! Couple questions though. 1.Tome of Evocation, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this tome is an HG type thing where you get an epic focus without having to waste feats on the prerequisite SF,GSF as per the usual? If so that is pretty sweet! 2. I've been reading through the spell change thread and the hg custom epic spell thread. Am I correct in that the bioware epics require a feat to be taken for the spell?...however the custom HG epics do not require a feat but instead require "someone or something" to teach it to you? Can you expand on that...if it is an ingame discussion thing I understand as the wording sounded purposefully vague. I guess my main question was the confirmation that bio epics require feats to be used but the custom epics do not? |
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Post by desocupado on May 27, 2015 22:19:01 GMT
I'm still not getting the alignment thing...srry for being dense but these two statements seem to be in conflict....or im misinterpreting. I'm reading chain as saying that if you splash in paladin you are required to maintain lawful good to keep the save boosts in LL. If so how are the save boosts maintained once you go back to neutral to continue druid lvls. I'm obviously misinterpreting something. Can one of you dumb it down even more for me Nope. You need to be good to receive the save bonuses (neutral good is fine). So you start as Lawful neutral (to be able to levle as druid) then you become lawful good and splash paladin. Afterwards you become neutral good, to level as druid up to 39. Before 40 you'll need to become lawful again to splash monk, and then you can swap back to neutral good (it's better to stay neutral good, before 41). 1.Tome of Evocation, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this tome is an HG type thing where you get an epic focus without having to waste feats on the prerequisite SF,GSF as per the usual? If so that is pretty sweet! 2. I've been reading through the spell change thread and the hg custom epic spell thread. Am I correct in that the bioware epics require a feat to be taken for the spell?...however the custom HG epics do not require a feat but instead require "someone or something" to teach it to you? Can you expand on that...if it is an ingame discussion thing I understand as the wording sounded purposefully vague. I guess my main question was the confirmation that bio epics require feats to be used but the custom epics do not? 1 - exactly. you can only use one, and only after level 40. Evocation is pretty easy to get. 2 - Hg epics require Epic Spell focus in a school to get it's respective spell after touching a source of knowledge. Wiki: Epic spells. Regular epic spells aren't worth for your current situation. |
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! It seems my simple question has spawned a bit of discussion. Let me start by saying that while I really do appreciate everyone's opinion there is one major thing you must keep in mind. This is my first toon! Im so green to HG that my text is literally green,lol. That being said...
not really relevant until UR / BUR races and paragon levels thus left unmentioned : all necro spells are DC based instakill spells (excluding the fancy Stoning epic) that are hard to make use of on a 0x open subrace toon, and it was mentioned that "no subby change". But yes, necro at PSK level is extremely good and with proper DC it will be if not mandatory then damn near so, since it allows you to rock both Hells and Abyss, and also provides a rather freaky strong PSK spell.
It's a long road but the journey thus far has been a lot of fun. 
