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Post by woqued on Nov 9, 2015 2:46:46 GMT
[Includes some SPOILERS]
Not much, just a bit.
->
Suggestion: one fully wanded toon would be enough to trigger Prince fight, but only fully wanded ones to get the benefits of abyssal vestige/prince win benefits.
Justification:
1. More logical progression: wouldn't it be enough to provide an Abyssal Prince just one set of all the wands? [Example:] What does Orcus do with 20+ wands?! He just needs the ones the other bastards (Grazzt, Demo, Obox, Juiblex) have. Not 5 of each. The Princes can feed on the rest of the group just fine even if they didn't bring offerings. No need to whoop Grazzt and company 5 times over. (Though it might be more fun to do it in one go for 5; and it would still be possible. Just not a pre-requisite).
2. Easier run formation. There are no considerable rewards to abuse here. Just makes the All For One solidarity approach possible to achieve. It is too easy to end up in a deadlock where you have fully wanded toons, not able to do Prince runs because the other active players happen to be playing on different timezone or require a different prince.
3. This would allow more oppourtunities for people to experience the various Prince encounters. Interesting challenges in more realistic reach, not just when the group is too strong for the encounter.
Suggestion2: make it possible to Pact without getting tossed out of the zone, thus requiring less hopping over servers and repeating what you're obviously capable of doing if you already got there.
Example: Hi Orcus! We got the wands for you, because we like you the BEST! And you get what you want faster. Oh, and we only whooped Harthoon once to bring them to you, cuz, you know, its easier for you and you're not a moron, AND! We like you the best.
Suggestion3: Improve Saving Pelor nontagger rewards. The mote is great. The other loot is far worse than a regular pt3. Though the encounter is a great experience, the rather nonexistent rewards tone down the excitement and do not fit the challenge. Last pelor second pick was a pulpa, because end reward burs were "randoruined". Really.
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Post by Retribution on Nov 9, 2015 8:59:19 GMT
I second all of these suggestions
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2016 19:42:33 GMT
Support all of these, they are unnecessary and tedious constraints to the most difficult maps in the mod, which are already under-run in the first place.
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Post by Acaos on Jan 18, 2016 6:11:21 GMT
We're discussing some fixes to these runs in an upcoming patch we're working on.
Acaos
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Post by desocupado on Feb 2, 2016 13:05:32 GMT
I'd suggest a few different things:
1- Portal attunements could stay after a prince/lord defeat (for easier party-ing).
2- Remove the need for doing pacts. (So people can prince fight as long their party has enough fully wanded people)
And one of these:
A- Remove the consume of the wands. (Quite drastic but would make people really get in the abyss after wanding)
B- Make the wand parts a stackable account-wise tag (so you can hoard them as you help others tagging and use with different characters as needed).
Maybe Perlor could also give a vestige and/or drop an additional BUR for each one (or two) characters participating in the run.
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Post by chirality on Feb 2, 2016 17:39:43 GMT
The main reason this population doesn't play in abyss is because they're "casual gamers" (this is not my accusation, but rather something that I have heard proclaimed from many players themselves). It is not due to anything except just that. There has been more and more of a clamor lately from "vets" to ease their workload and ease the game: provide for their diminishing time, motivation, and dedication to learning that comes naturally when people get older, lost interest, and stop treating HG as an RPG to learn how to beat, but rather a place to chat and drink beer while watching someone else kill stuff. However, I think it's pretty lame to dumb down the game for the sake of stubborn casual gamers that never really tried hard in the first place. I mean DM even hands out free splinters...come on now...  |
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Post by desocupado on Feb 2, 2016 18:10:08 GMT
I wouldn't equal grinding to difficulty, if anything the required extra grinding would make it easier (as you get more loot before the challenges / prince fights).
Of course if the said runs never happen because of their heavy/strict requirements.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you call "dumb down the game".
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Post by woqued on Feb 2, 2016 20:54:22 GMT
I'd suggest a few different things: 1- Portal attunements could stay after a prince/lord defeat (for easier party-ing). 2- Remove the need for doing pacts. (So people can prince fight as long their party has enough fully wanded people) And one of these: A- Remove the consume of the wands. (Quite drastic but would make people really get in the abyss after wanding) B- Make the wand parts a stackable account-wise tag (so you can hoard them as you help others tagging and use with different characters as needed). Maybe Perlor could also give a vestige and/or drop an additional BUR for each one (or two) characters participating in the run. Pact runs do feel silly, don't see the need for it. Having lesser requirements would probably be fine, but removing consumption of wands seems quite drastic indeed. I think people do not need multiple prince wins; it is something the most epic and loved characters should strive for, not just something you breeze through. They're supposed to be epic encounters and epic achievements. Deso - you've been advocating easier multidemi / multiprince attainability in some other threads too - Why? Toons do not actually need that high demicount or many prince wins; why should it be easily attainable? The account-stacking idea is quite ridiculous I think. Farm it on your lvl 80 sorc, vestige your lvl 60 paladin? Or did I misunderstand? Although I guess some people have already done it this way by multiboxing in some sense, so would even the playing field for those incapable or unwilling of doing multiboxing. Pelor dropping extra burs? Definitely something that should be in place already, I'm on board for that. With all that being said, Acaos did say they're planning something - wait and see I suppose. I do hope it doesn't get "dumbed down" too much, but it could be easier to approach. |
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Post by desocupado on Feb 2, 2016 22:26:19 GMT
Pact runs do feel silly, don't see the need for it. Having lesser requirements would probably be fine, but removing consumption of wands seems quite drastic indeed. I think people do not need multiple prince wins; it is something the most epic and loved characters should strive for, not just something you breeze through. They're supposed to be epic encounters and epic achievements. Deso - you've been advocating easier multidemi / multiprince attainability in some other threads too - Why? Toons do not actually need that high demicount or many prince wins; why should it be easily attainable? The account-stacking idea is quite ridiculous I think. Farm it on your lvl 80 sorc, vestige your lvl 60 paladin? Or did I misunderstand? Although I guess some people have already done it this way by multiboxing in some sense, so would even the playing field for those incapable or unwilling of doing multiboxing. . My reasoning is: If it easier to attain (less grind involved) more people would feel like doing it or doing it with more characters. The account-wise system would make people more willing to play cores/stronger character, easing party formation. So you play a good character seeking a benefit for a weaker one. Don't forget having the wand alone doesn't grant the vestige. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 23:17:19 GMT
Pact runs do feel silly, don't see the need for it. Having lesser requirements would probably be fine, but removing consumption of wands seems quite drastic indeed. I think people do not need multiple prince wins; it is something the most epic and loved characters should strive for, not just something you breeze through. They're supposed to be epic encounters and epic achievements. Deso - you've been advocating easier multidemi / multiprince attainability in some other threads too - Why? Toons do not actually need that high demicount or many prince wins; why should it be easily attainable? The account-stacking idea is quite ridiculous I think. Farm it on your lvl 80 sorc, vestige your lvl 60 paladin? Or did I misunderstand? Although I guess some people have already done it this way by multiboxing in some sense, so would even the playing field for those incapable or unwilling of doing multiboxing. . My reasoning is: If it easier to attain (less grind involved) more people would feel like doing it or doing it with more characters. The account-wise system would make people more willing to play cores/stronger character, easing party formation. So you play a good character seeking a benefit for a weaker one. Don't forget having the wand alone doesn't grant the vestige. Getting an Abyss win is not a 'grind' (ie: something repetitive and tedious) - it is essentially an epic achievement, having to complete 15 different and increasingly challenging runs/mini-bosses in total (3 parts each from 5 layers) before a final mission to deal with the Wand and claim your Abyss win. In the current state of the module it is truly the ultimate accomplishment for a toon to get. Anyone that considers that a grind should probably consider changing to a different type of game - it's certainly a lot less of a grind that hitting the same LL/Oinos/shallow Hell runs over and over again, but most of the server seems satisfied doing that. The only *small part* which can really be considered tedious is the double-run of P3 when starting a Prince fight, since Pacting banishes you from the map; fixing this was a suggestion in the original post. In most cases this only equates to an extra 45 minutes or so, so it's more of a minor inconvenience than a genuine grind anyway. Non-consumable wands would mean that after clearing every layer once, you can just do the 4x P3's and Pelor fight all in a row (this can be done in about the same time it takes to do 2-3 Nessus runs), and BOOM, you have 5x Abyss wins on a toon; congrats Conquerer status, go make a new toon since you've achieved everything the game has to offer! That's just silly. Finally, I can see the angle which would make one desire account-wise tagging, but IMO it is very much against the spirit of Higher Ground. It is not really that different from XP banking to me (eg: farm the endgame with the stronger toons, then transfer the XP to make a brand new toon) which has been suggested in the past and shot down for various reasons. Those same reasons are why I would be against account-wide tagging. |
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Post by desocupado on Feb 2, 2016 23:57:03 GMT
I thought you couldn't repeat a prince to get conqueror status? (the conqueror is a virtual achievement right? i.e. all tags) I know you are referring to this:
A simple fix wold be changing the abyss cycle tag/achievement to require each different prince / perlor fight instead (i.e. a tag bonus like Pre-LL with sparkles and everything for each one).
Consider this: currently to become a conqueror of abyss you need 16*5 = 80 runs
It would require at least 19 "runs" to complete the abyss, like it does to become a double demigod. Maybe acquiring a wand piece could revoke your portal rights for that domain, increasing this number by 12 runs = 31 (similar to triple demi). Ofc if you don't have enough cheese some abyss runs are bound to failure.
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But you are right about this kind of game being not as adequate for me as it was.
My found memories of this server was from when I could play everyday for more than 4 hours (at least). And man, there as so much to discover back then.
Nowadays I really have a hard time committing (and as always there's some timezone issues) tough I always found the Abyss pt1-3 runs too tiresome and not doing 3 at once makes it really hard to close an abyss cycle.
Considering that my sorc is pacted with GM for 2 years and my druid need G2-3 and Z2-3.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2016 0:17:23 GMT
I thought you couldn't repeat a prince to get conqueror status? (the conqueror is a virtual achievement right? i.e. all tags) I know you are referring to this: A simple fix wold be changing the abyss cycle tag/achievement to require each different prince / perlor fight instead (i.e. a tag bonus like Pre-LL with sparkles and everything for each one). Consider this: currently to become a conqueror of abyss you need 16*5 = 80 runs It would require at least 19 "runs" to complete the abyss, like it does to become a double demigod. Maybe acquiring a wand piece could revoke your portal rights for that domain, increasing this number by 12 runs = 31 (similar to triple demi). Ofc if you don't have enough cheese some abyss runs are bound to failure. ---------------------------- But you are right about this kind of game being not as adequate for me as it was. My found memories of this server was from when I could play everyday for more than 4 hours (at least). And man, there as so much to discover back then. Nowadays I really have a hard time committing (and as always there's some timezone issues) tough I always found the Abyss pt1-3 runs too tiresome and not doing 3 at once makes it really hard to close an abyss cycle. Considering that my sorc is pacted with GM for 2 years and my druid need G2-3 and Z2-3. To be honest, I don't understand this post at all. Yes, you cannot repeat the same Prince to earn extra Abyss wins/bonuses (at least, this has always been my understanding - I suppose I could be wrong, I have never personally tried Pacting with the same Abyss Lord). My point is that if your suggestion was implemented and the wands are not consumed, then after I have done all 15 Abyss runs and am fully Wanded, I will be free to simply do Azz3 -> kill Graz'zt Prince, then Zio3 -> kill Obox-Ob Prince and so on, eventually getting 5 Abyss wins in only 5 extra runs (9 runs if you include the double Pact+Prince, I guess). This is currently not possible because the wands DO get consumed, so after one Abyss win you have to do the original 15 runs again. You are correct that at the moment becoming a 'Conquerer of the Abyss' (unofficial term, as you said) requires ~80 runs. I think this is entirely reasonable, it is the hardest achievement in the module and is the closest thing to completion of Higher Ground (note that x7 Demi requires 63 runs). I'm not really sure if you are trying to suggest that completely clearing the Abyss should be about as difficult as getting 2-3 demi-iterations (maybe I am misunderstanding your post/suggestion?), but if so I strongly disagree. Getting Hell tags is practically effortless in the current state of the game, there are already plenty of Level 80 x7 Demi 'veterans' who are basically clueless on how to play. Abyss wins are essentially the real endgame, and should remain difficult to max-out on. |
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Post by desocupado on Feb 3, 2016 1:04:27 GMT
I misread "...4x P3's and the Pelor fight all in a row " as "4x the Pelor fight all in a row". Hence I got confused. (and created more confusion)
BTW I would like to point out that unlike the second hell cycle, only the first abyss cycle is harder than the others (as you lack a vestige).
The subsequent cycles 2-5 are easier (hence more of a time consuming thing than additional challenge) - tough most people point out that some princes are harder than others (and you should start with the easier ones).
My previous post suggestion was making the cycle go like:
1st PT1-3 run you acquire the wand piece and lose the portal attunement to that domain (even if you face a prince)
2nd PT1-3 run you can acquire the vestige If you face that prince and have: 1- all other fragments and 2- all portal attunements of that domain
Perlor require at least one of each wand as normal
That means
3*2 (to complete runs in each prince wannabe domain) *4 (four princes) = 24
3 (GM) //I'm never sure who doesn't want the wand.
1 (perlor)
=29
This wouldn't change the achievement sense of getting the first abyss cycle - in fact it would increase it by 3.
It would only reduce the amount of runs to get the sub-sequential cycles and increase the amount of personal gain from each run after the first cycle.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2016 2:40:51 GMT
This wouldn't change the achievement sense of getting the first abyss cycle - in fact it would increase it by 3. Most people who aren't already running the Abyss much don't have a single Abyss win in the first place - I don't see a benefit for anyone in making it *harder* to get the first win. It would only reduce the amount of runs to get the sub-sequential cycles... Again, I don't really see what this fascination is in making it easier/faster to complete multiple Abyss cycles. You really want to be able to max-out on Abyss wins in 29 runs, while it takes 63 runs to hit x7 Demi? It's *supposed* to be difficult, and multiple Abyss wins is a luxury and a sign of legitimate toon maturity. It is ABSOLUTELY NOT a necessity. ...increase the amount of personal gain from each run after the first cycle. Not necessarily saying that this is you, but honestly I think the attitude of needing to 'maximise personal gain' is the root of tag greed on the server - many players seem to be more interested in tagging than in bringing whatever toon is needed for a smooth run (probably a large factor in the common lack of cores in runs). This attitude is one that is very limiting for the Abyss in particular, and anyone that has run there semi-regularly will know that there is often an element of sacrifice and needing to bring a 'helper' toon along, even if it won't be tagging. If someone isn't having actual fun playing the game and is only 'tediously grinding to get tags'... then maybe it's not the right type of game for them. Just my opinion. |
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