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Post by Matt on Feb 17, 2016 15:06:07 GMT
Although this isnt as important as some other updates, i'd like to propose that all or at least a bunch more weapons have more then 1 dmg type. It would mean tanks dont all have to use the same weapons to get the best dmg types and bring some weapons in to use for a change.
Scythe, Morningstar and Halberd are the current "optimal" weapons from their dual dmg types. It could be a special niche they have that they get two types of phys dmg but in reality most weapons can offer more than 1 type of dmg. For example a longsword can be used to slash or pierce. A pick can be used to pierce or bludgeon with the blunt end and so on.
Another idea i had was that weapons with a lower or non existant crit range can have a higher base dmg.. i.e. 18-20 crit chance weapon could have d2 less base dmg then a 19-20, and 19-20 have d2 less base dmg then a 20 x.
I believe a weapon change was on the cards at somepoint but haven't heard about it. Could it possibly be easy enough to do for the upcoming patch, as well as be accepted as a good change.
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Post by desocupado on Feb 17, 2016 16:30:10 GMT
There was a rework in progress: If you want to help speed development, someone could suggest revised stats for all the weapons. Here's the sheet: Click Me!The ones in light purple, designated by the one cell as 'Changed in 2013' are ones I began to edit when I didn't realize we would have access to decimals for crit multiplier - now, the only change from the original plan is the inability to do iterations other than 5 (and 3, for monk weaps). So, we need to come up with balanced suggestions taking into account feat requirements, weapon size, and so on. Funky Tough since few characters can hardly use more than 1 weapon type won't enrich gameplay as much.
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Post by Matt on Feb 17, 2016 16:32:47 GMT
I'd suggest if most of the weapons are going to stay 1 dmg type that they get a slight boost in base dmg compared to the multidmg ones, to give some kinda incentive to use them.
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Post by chainlink on Feb 17, 2016 16:46:10 GMT
To be honest this is another area where melee characters get a kick in the crackers, in most cases its tricky enough to fit in all the feats to optimise one weapon which means against enemies that highly resist the damage type of your favoured beating implement you're going to significantly reduce your output.
Of course if you swap to another weapon you'll loose loads of AB, crit multiplier, crit range, etc. meaning that you'll hit stuff so infrequently the reduced resistance won't really make much difference.
Look at those casters happily swapping from one damage type to another.........Wow after typing that I'm wondering why I ever play melee characters or in fact ranged weapon characters as the same problems exist for them!
The only melee character which can freely swap between damage types iirc is a fist monk (you don't see many of those around these days) as there are specific set gloves that do piercing and another set that do slashing in addition to the majority that do bludgeoning.
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Post by tank on Feb 17, 2016 17:03:24 GMT
To be honest this is another area where melee characters get a kick in the crackers, in most cases its tricky enough to fit in all the feats to optimise one weapon which means against enemies that highly resist the damage type of your favoured beating implement you're going to significantly reduce your output. Of course if you swap to another weapon you'll loose loads of AB, crit multiplier, crit range, etc. meaning that you'll hit stuff so infrequently the reduced resistance won't really make much difference. Look at those casters happily swapping from one damage type to another.........Wow after typing that I'm wondering why I ever play melee characters or in fact ranged weapon characters as the same problems exist for them! The only melee character which can freely swap between damage types iirc is a fist monk (you don't see many of those around these days) as there are specific set gloves that do piercing and another set that do slashing in addition to the majority that do bludgeoning. Well, for one thing, melees don't have a certain amount of melee attacks they can perform before they rest. Also, tanks are far stronger than casters/cores in regards to damage output honestly(at least, single target... I don't think anything can beat karsus RG blanket spam), switching damage types isn't what makes cores, cores. Also I pretty much agree with the OP, dual damage type weapons are far superior, which is why you only see those weapons being used(by effective tanks at least). Having a broader selection of weapons with dual damage types would make sense so you don't have an entire population of vastly different builds, funneling into the same weapon focuses because its useless to use other weapons.
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Post by versengeteriks on Feb 17, 2016 17:32:49 GMT
Nice idea and i'm all for realism in the system. But as a Martial artist of over 30 years. I can say pretty much every weapon has multiple ways to hit. Jab or punch with sword pommel strikes. All polearms and hafted weapons also get to do this jab, just like Quaterstaffs. Or even a haft in the face.... Swing it like an pick axe and pierce with the Quillons or pommel like a club........ Axe top as a jab, then hook or slash the arm with the head.... Where would you stop with changing NWN weapons? or can we get them all done. The only limitation i can see is bludgeoning weapons cant cut. But they can jab. Whereas All real life bladed weapons CAN be used to bludgeon. And the only blades that cant really cut are sai and stilletto dagger types that rely on the point. But they can be used to pommel strike. I'm all for it..... my 2c 'trix
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Post by versengeteriks on Feb 17, 2016 17:34:26 GMT
My only addition, is that only people trained in the weapons would normally try and use them this way...
So fighters and or those specializing in the weapon should be the only ones to get these extra damage types.
'trix
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Post by chainlink on Feb 17, 2016 17:57:19 GMT
To be honest this is another area where melee characters get a kick in the crackers, in most cases its tricky enough to fit in all the feats to optimise one weapon which means against enemies that highly resist the damage type of your favoured beating implement you're going to significantly reduce your output. Of course if you swap to another weapon you'll loose loads of AB, crit multiplier, crit range, etc. meaning that you'll hit stuff so infrequently the reduced resistance won't really make much difference. Look at those casters happily swapping from one damage type to another.........Wow after typing that I'm wondering why I ever play melee characters or in fact ranged weapon characters as the same problems exist for them! The only melee character which can freely swap between damage types iirc is a fist monk (you don't see many of those around these days) as there are specific set gloves that do piercing and another set that do slashing in addition to the majority that do bludgeoning. Well, for one thing, melees don't have a certain amount of melee attacks they can perform before they rest. Also, tanks are far stronger than casters/cores in regards to damage output honestly(at least, single target... I don't think anything can beat karsus RG blanket spam), switching damage types isn't what makes cores, cores. Also I pretty much agree with the OP, dual damage type weapons are far superior, which is why you only see those weapons being used(by effective tanks at least). Having a broader selection of weapons with dual damage types would make sense so you don't have an entire population of vastly different builds, funneling into the same weapon focuses because its useless to use other weapons. I agree although when you're talking about a caster with 50+ level 9's they tend to end up resting about the same amount as melee characters.
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Post by Matt on Feb 17, 2016 18:28:00 GMT
My only addition, is that only people trained in the weapons would normally try and use them this way... So fighters and or those specializing in the weapon should be the only ones to get these extra damage types. 'trix It'd be cool if say Weapon Masters with 30 levels got the ability to do all 3 dmg types their focused weapon since they have mastered it. But back to the original ideas... Possibly giving weapons with single dmg types more of that, 1d6-1d10, 1d8-1d12 etc... would make them more likable to use. I'd recommend just giving more weapons multiple though, otherwise every other weapon you bothered to add to the game just isn't being used. I'd personally be happier so i didnt have to farm DB to get a halberd or mstar. It's not like you can really buy them either as most people will tend to keep them since there is a huge amount of weapons DB can drop so the chance of one you want is pretty low.
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Post by chirality on Feb 17, 2016 19:22:52 GMT
First part I'd like to think is on-topic; tangent warning for rest:
10 minutes (I'd say 10 seconds but, well, we all know the search function sux) of forum search should show that universal engine-level change weapon stats requires a hak that has been shelved due lack of zots. And this discussion has been had over and over. It's been years since I recommended marriage of class rebalance with weapon phys types (stamped as OP and given up) and years since Were pointed out to attentive readers that without adding Extra Melee Damage Type property to individual weapons on case-by-case basis, a weapon may only deal 1 type of phys damage (that which engine allows) despite any presence of Extra Melee Damage other than base type. Therefore options include someone going through each and every weapon (seems quite lot of time) 1 by 1, or hak engine to change them all at once (hasn't been done in over a decade and any skilled coder capable of delivering this hak would have their time used far better to hasten Limbo/EE release).
Rather than allow Funky to focus on releasing Limbo (the only solution to please bored vets and satisfy powercreep), we repeat the same discussion each year of a few vital topics (tanks v casters, mstar v other weapons, PLs v L60 areas, haves v have nots, newbie appeal v vet retention) and somehow believe that any of these changes would be fast enough to serve as stopgap "while waiting limbo". However, truly fast changes such as tweaking numbers have rarely been delivered, and when they have, it's been to much applause (e.g. bandit chief tag level).
I deplore one to direct one's devpressure to resurrect theory/application of "weekly update poll" rather than rehashing complicated schemes (of which ignorance of complication level is no excuse, since the information is there if only one bothers to look, as one should if they desired to save Funky time and energy, rather than expend it).
Spend an hour on research before posting; it saves a provision of false hope and wasted time with clueless posters debating over the best way to catch smoke in a bottle.
Dual type weapons are OP, and the solution is not to bring other weapons to their OP status, but nerf the 3 standouts.
As "trix" says, basing any rework on "realism" would be a slippery slope, so the most reasonable starting point is to ignore realism and focus solely on balance (as Funky and devteam for years have used to guide slated weapon changes). To this end, as well to addition/removal of multiple base physical types, a pleasing thought would be to bring bad CEP weapons up to par of the vanilla weapons that received boosted base stats (mainly crit stats) back in original weapon hak, because the dynamic of having dozens of weapons available results only in forcing huge timesink to farm desired weapon when only a handful have stats better than the rest (compare falchion to halberd; maul to heavy flail; mace to warhammer; etc). It's an enormous pain and complication for players to attempt acquiring 1 weapon for their toon out of 50 when random drops dictate that you may require farming DB a dozen times before finding even 1 of your desired weapon (or get lucky and find 2 at once on first attempt, and there is little satisfaction when luck rather than skill rules their time investment). Trading is no solution either, especially in days of low population/stale economy (due ultimate arbiter of our enjoyment remaining time investment, as with any other probability-based scheme of item acquisition). These few weapons are simply far more valuable, and like tia sorc gear, hoarded once attained, rarely to be given freely when people play more than 1 toon, and this relationship is seen played out with virtually anything else in this game (tia gear, pandects, ness drops, ely/abo random mini drops) as well, to no one's enjoyment whatsoever (but rather growing sense of frustration aimed at game itself and at players "luckier" who invested little time and got the thing others spent hundreds of hours trying to get, or players having more time available to devote to grinding than oneself).
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The kicker is that this game has been this way for a very, very, very long time (long enough for players to grow from adolescents to adults, or young adults to approach middle age), so my instinct is that changing such inherent and classic features of HG would require extremely delicate execution, and furthermore would be less-attractive than pushing new content on the one hand and pushing simple numerical tweaks/quick class/item rebalance/fix on the other hand, both of which (as proven fact from long-voiced opinions/polls) should serve well to placate players across "have/vet <---> havenot/nub" spectrum, such as:
--rebalancing power, either positive of negative, of few uber classes (eg sorc, pally) in comparison to their 3rd-world counterparts (eg wizard, bg), so that there is no longer any clear winner in raw power at expense of personal preference/hassle to play (eg despite how strong wizard is by virtue of being nonquasi arcane, changing spellbook is an annoying pile of crap to deal with and we all know it, and specialization is a joke; eg despite how nice it is to never need change alignment, there's ely hat and bg lacks critical and uber perks of paladin such as spellbook (huge contrast of raw power), aura of courage, minismite that works on 99% of the mod instead of 1% of the mod)
--fixing things already developed but which resulted in pleasing no one because they have zero value or attraction past "I do what I want"/"wait till limbo" (eg GI, temporal stasis),
--and handing disgruntled players across above-mentioned spectrum small but critical QoL improvements such as:
----change TA to function in combat and give free noncombat TA to all caster,
----make newbielimbo less harsh, and add 25+ suitable gear to existing shops/make a new shop to bridge frustrating "lowbie gaps"
----make Rowan Guardian offer weapon buffs (seriously, what's easier, invent new system/redo old weap buff system so it doesn't make tanks reliant on casters who already reign supreme outside deep abyss/nessus, or just deal with what we have and give people a break by changing as little as possible)
----make vestiges no longer require constant DM attention to fix/replace,
----redo presence/ubiquity of saving-throw (aka autofailable) based disable and instakills which serve to make concept of "tank" hollow and useless, and serve to punish tank PCs by tanking things that kill their fun, regardless of skill/powerlevel/knowledge of game, with only probability/luck/presence of "true immunity" gear as salvation to how many rounds they may tank before they die/disable
----offer option of p4/p5 paragons toggleable if desired to suit whims of tank-centric players at expense of casters, and I'm not being sarcastic or trolling you here brad, although I do wish there was some way of making everyone happy that didn't involve extreme SR on the one hand and extreme vulnerability to ubercasters on the other)
----make ammunition more reasonable and sensical to acquire simply by changing some drop tables and/or offering shop-bought ones that compete with those attained only by huge time investment/luck (random drops, in particular best ones being limited to people that don't care about them and unattainable to people that need them most--pazuzu)
----finally fix the summons that got left out but which people most looked forward to seeing improved, and whose classes most needed it as "perk" (hint--not nonquasi casters): animal companions + bio epics/classfeature summons
If any of these things takes more zots than "restructure lowbie areas after long period of examination" or "hak the engine for result X", I'll be the first to apologize for my attitude, but until Acaos says that an engine hak is more realistic than finishing Limbo scripts, I'll continue ranting in favor of "Weeky Update Poll-esque" schemes rather than pie-in-the-sky "remake HG because we learned too late that by design it's more time-intensive than most people can afford" schemes.
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Post by Matt on Feb 17, 2016 20:10:54 GMT
Thanks for the warning. Man, all that writing makes it seem like changing the server is too much effort. The weekly update poll seems a bit too much, maybe a monthly could suffice and not be too harsh on the dev team. Can this be a quote in your signature?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2016 20:12:44 GMT
We are always saying 'tanks aren't strong enough', IMO the restriction to one damage type is quite a large constraint. While it's true that one option would be to nerf the dual-damage type weapons to bring them in line with the rest, I don't see anything wrong with just notably improving all single-damage weapons as a buff to low-tier melees as well as weapon-choice balance.
Threat range/multiplier >>> base damage dice, eg: if you up a d8 to d12, the extra ~2 points of damage per hit is definitely NOT going to make me preference single-damage options over dual-damage options.
Give all single-damage weapons an extra 0.5-1 points of critical multiplier and see what happens?
We all know that only the best-geared/best-played tanks start to approach OP-status, I can't foresee any significant imbalance issues by buffing single-damage weapons. Top-tier tanks mostly use dual-damage weapons, so a moderate buff wouldn't affect them (in any case, it increases the number of viable weapons), it would just increase the DPS of the many 'noob tanks' that we currently say are underpowered.
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Post by versengeteriks on Feb 18, 2016 0:47:59 GMT
Not wanting to stray into the whys and wherefores of class balance etc.
But rather from a practical coding viewpoint. Re coding each weapon would be massively time consuming for the admin team. So as an alternative Intermediate way of achieving the same result.
Could this be done by creating a spell or feat?
Weapon enchantment/feat: piercing? Weapon enchantment/feat: Slashing? Weapon enchantment/feat: Bludgeoning?
OR as an Item like the magical sword sheaths? or a whetstone? as a castable or a fixed attribute?
- "While this item is in your inventory you also add Piercing damage to your strikes" type item?
It could be available to all since it would be such a low magic item. But It would probably only get used by Melee and archer types anyway....
On a side note. As a feat it makes it easier to limit towards the Feat heavy classes like fighters, who in RL are the ones more likely to learn these techniques. While conversely, spending a feat on weapon damage types for casters would be expensive and the training considered as overly time consuming for a Mage (for those thinking about realism).
Again. Not advocating the addition of these things. Just offering an Idea into how to try to achieve it.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 18, 2016 2:04:17 GMT
Weapon damages types are controlled by 2da. Any damage added would not work like two-type weapons, but would be an additional damage amount triggered by an onhit.
Funky
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Post by chirality on Feb 18, 2016 4:37:29 GMT
It all comes out as the item's base type. It's not possible to add additional physical damage of a different type than the base weapon type. which is why we went with an engine hack to add base damage (ala str mod) instead. By far the simplest method. . . . Adding additional damage types to weapons was never in the cards - they're a key part of the still-planned weapons rebalance (with a second type pegged at a 20% damage increase). Allowing that to happen to any weapon would greatly homogenize them, as well as opening up some ugly cheese (think morningstar).Hopefully this helps address: 1) Can we add extra phys damage other than base phys type to weapons? (No) 2) Can weapons ever deal more than 1 phys type at a time? (No) 3) Does Funky (only one who matters, but we all know it is anyway) think dualtype is OP? (Yes)
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