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Post by desocupado on Feb 19, 2016 18:15:50 GMT
The tanks, while there are 4 core classes, the others options are just "the rest". Once quite appreciated (in a galaxy far away) with features like un-resistable damage and highest dps on server they felt out of flavor (a history I'd like to put on this introduction if someone could point or tell it). Tanks are usually evaluated in 3 ways - Damage, Defense and Utility. Part of the problem lies in this: - Nothing outdamages Arcane with karsus.
- No defense resist the 5% (roll 1) of some checks - casters AC and saves can surpass a tank.
- Tank utility tend to be low (disarm/kd are the most famous) but their debuffs tend to be lousy compared to a caster.
Now onto each thing I listed: Frequent damage resistance on all mobs and The constant need of weapon swapping due damage typesThe weapon system is quite odd between inherent limitation of NWN engine and code, most of tank's high level gameplay revolves around swapping weapon (and sometimes defensive gear) to fit the current mobs / prevalent mobs / mobs without instant kill. People can "slack" with a over-buffed Dustbone weapon as long they don't hit a healing mob or no-hit mob. Lower skill cap/ High gear capTank progression is more about getting gear than playing better. Since most tank has so few features, the quick bar tend to revolve around different elemental/exotic weapon combinations rather than options. Difficulty in acquiring the correct weapon type"How many weapon type there?" The simple answer is many more types than there is a purpose. Maybe weapon drops could work like a "vestige" or some sort of weapon craft system with Ixion as the smith.Paragon mobs healing over maximum hpAlong with no hit mobs they serve mostly as a "wake up" call for tanks. Maybe they shouldn't heal as much. The only consequence of healing is making some look bad. I mean outright immunity to 4 damage types is already quite a restriction on the mindless bashing. Need of weapon buffsThis adds times to the run preparation and sometime takes more slots than needed. This is also the bane of people with dual wielding. When I play a tank i feel like I depend on casters on so many ways. The lack of interesting weaponsIt's hard to make a good weapon. Few weapons are memorable: Machine hitting spear, Tear hitting Morning star, Stat drain B. Sword, MoaD breach ones and perhaps a couple others. All other are just a different damage combination. The lack of significant combat options beyond attacking and Underwhelming class featuresIt's funny, the paragon AB and KD/dis feat really helps most tanks to be able to do Knockdown/disarm. I really think each class really should add something flavorful and meaningful to your combat options. Maybe the Barbarian with xDD splash could have a good breath. Maybe the rogue with shadow dancer splash could shadow step. The assassin monk could instant kill with his bare fists.
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Post by Raj on Feb 19, 2016 18:25:47 GMT
I came here hoping you wanted to flame Tanky :-( Will elaborate more on the subject in future now I'm sad.
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Post by tank on Feb 19, 2016 18:27:13 GMT
rude
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Post by Raj on Feb 19, 2016 18:45:01 GMT
Tanks in endgame are perfectly fine in what they do, and can be powerhouses. I like I could select all 9 options in this poll but honestly your opinion looks biased and any answer would lead to yet more ''coding requests'' that are going to be delayed/ignored.
When you compare a good tank to a good caster you have to check effective efficient damage, and against things like Balors or Brood Serpents they often come up ahead by a good margin. Even when you compare a bad tank to a bad caster the former is probably contributing more (tanks being easy mode leads to a lot of people thinking they are doing better on a weapon user than on a caster, and they're probably right).
Giving them more toys won't help if their core role is taken away anyway.
Now, tanks niche has always been deal with stuff casters (or other melee types with called shot/mortal strike) can't dispatch easily, but the balance has been ruined with the introduction of phisical damage spells. Many years ago Bigby8 and Evards already received their fair share of nerfs, but then out of nothing Flensing, Reverse Gravity and Fissure got introduced thinking it was a good idea giving some more options to druids and pariahs especially.
Since the main source of dmg output (and dmg output against no-crittable long lasting mobs and bosses is the main contribution a tank can and should give) of tanks is physical damage, suddendly having casters take over that role ruined the class balance. Especially when you consider that fissure bypasses SR and flensing/rg benefit from pariah SP/DC or crazy multipliers by Karsus. Tanks can still get good numbers against their favored targets but their role can be fullfilled by the same guys who can also deal efficiently with all the fodder mobs.
"Spam RG" is the answer to pretty much every end game boss fight, we're playing with a broken spell that makes fighters pale in comparison.
So, while fighters are still good at what they do and don't need any buff to be competitive (beside needing good gear, more than casters, as has always been), they're not required if not to speed even more a already successful run.
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Post by therealmilli on Feb 19, 2016 18:56:23 GMT
# 2 and 3 are a pain in the ass, I hate begging for weapon buffs/rebuffs. Let us buff our own, as someone stated a long time ago with unused stacks of gems, sitting in bank chests, for example.
I hate nothing more than having to change size on my barbarian when swapping weapons, though I could use a 1 hander...
PS. Nerf arcane. Thanks.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 19, 2016 18:56:45 GMT
Now, tanks niche has always been deal with stuff casters (or other melee types with called shot/mortal strike) can't dispatch easily, but the balance has been ruined with the introduction of phisical damage spells. Many years ago Bigby8 and Evards already received their fair share of nerfs, but then out of nothing Flensing, Reverse Gravity and Fissure got introduced thinking it was a good idea giving some more options to druids and pariahs especially. . . . "Spam RG" is the answer to pretty much every end game boss fight, we're playing with a broken spell that makes fighters pale in comparison. So, while fighters are still good at what they do and don't need any buff to be competitive (beside needing good gear, more than casters, as has always been), they're not required if not to speed even more a already successful run. YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!!!111111 Ok, you're right. You will be pleased to know we are taking steps to address this. Neither RG nor EQ work in Limbo (forget what we decided on Fissure). More importantly, ground/gravity based spells are being modified to check whether a creature is flying, or can levitate/sandwalk/treewalk. The idea being to rein in their breadth without completely neutering them. We will also consider future edits, like (moderate) damage decreases, depending on player feedback. Funky
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Post by Raj on Feb 19, 2016 19:01:41 GMT
I am moderately pleased. Now about Karsus...
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Post by desocupado on Feb 19, 2016 19:09:51 GMT
Now, tanks niche has always been deal with stuff casters (or other melee types with called shot/mortal strike) can't dispatch easily, but the balance has been ruined with the introduction of physical damage spells. Many years ago Bigby8 and Evards already received their fair share of nerfs, but then out of nothing Flensing, Reverse Gravity and Fissure got introduced thinking it was a good idea giving some more options to druids and pariahs especially. Physical damage spells seems to be the current central issue indeed. Tough I don't really appreciate how tank deal with the elemental damage (issues with weapon buffs and weapon hunting). So, while fighters are still good at what they do and don't need any buff to be competitive (beside needing good gear, more than casters, as has always been), they're not required if not to speed even more a already successful run. This theme is actually something funny, most high magic servers (i.e. strong magic item) have caster as the UP ones. The issue I see is tanks debuff stacking with casters instead of being alternative to them - i.e. they don't offer enough to cover a core need like battletide/songSR debuff or something else. --- Please vote again - I edited the pool (removed typos and clarified the "question")
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Post by cathedralmaster on Feb 19, 2016 19:29:25 GMT
A lot of the games I've seen since NWN have added some form of multi-target ability to tanks in order to balance them with casters, be it sweeping through a mob or hitting every creature within a certain radius. Would something like that be feasible?
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 19, 2016 19:48:56 GMT
There's already something like that in game, and a few classes even have really cool specials attached to it but... you know.... it's basically broken beyond repair. I think WW-we all know WW-what I'm talking about. (WWA)
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Post by desocupado on Feb 19, 2016 19:53:44 GMT
But cathedralmaster meant something more akin to each hit does 50% damage to enemies in a small radius around the target (like sound burst, but with melee damage).
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Post by Raj on Feb 19, 2016 20:32:51 GMT
Smiters, lifethreaders, and let not forget those OP GIs grenades. Or better forget those.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 19, 2016 20:39:38 GMT
I believe in a future where GI grenades will actually have to be nerfed due to actually ending up OP, but that's a different topic for a different day. But yeah there's lots of options out there for AoE damage for melees. I don't think my work-around for WWA was ever completely shot-down either; it just never really went anywhere.
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Post by moe on Feb 19, 2016 23:35:51 GMT
As cute as all these answers are, I think MY beef would be that Squishies used to be Squishy. A Tank kept the bad guys off the squishies so the squishy could do his job. Now the squishies are as stout as the tanks - and no longer need a meat shield. And then there are those "no hit" mobs - mobs that tanks specifically can't hit (or shouldn't) Are there mobs that Casters can't hit? Not talking SR or DC - talking about the same type of "you better not cast a spell at these mobs"?
Let me use Zhents as an Lower 40 example. My lvl 35 Moogle was able to solo zhents last night - well, except for the Bosses. My TANK had no problems dealing with Zhents (it took a while), but when he tried a Boss (the Head Priest of Bane) he was struck down by an Epic Greater Ruin spell. The tag is lvl 35. I am lvl 35. I can solo the area, but I have NO chance against a Boss. I "have to have a caster". When do Casters "have to have a tank"? Never
I like beating on stuff. I don't mind switching weapons (it's a lot easier than keeping spells straight). I am a Warrior, an Adventurer. I live in a World where Battle is done with Bodies. If a caster wants to help make it go faster, then okay. But I can make my own way (or I should be able to). I shouldn't be required to have a Caster accompany me to kill the hard guys. Conan the Barbarian had a caster too, but he wasn't the Battle Tank of the group - Conan the Fighter, the breaker of bones, was. I figure the "Heroes" here are casters - invincible squishies
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Post by cathedralmaster on Feb 20, 2016 3:00:12 GMT
I like beating on stuff. I don't mind switching weapons (it's a lot easier than keeping spells straight). I am a Warrior, an Adventurer. I live in a World where Battle is done with Bodies. Magic is impressive... But now Minsc leads! Swords for everybody!
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