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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 20, 2016 21:43:23 GMT
So, here's a breakdown of what's in the game at the moment: uro is 8d12cold 2d10 pos dulv 8d12 cold 2d10 neg ssith is 6d12 elec 2d8 divine hive is 8d12 sonic 2d10 magic aboleths are 4d12, acid cold and neg ely is 8d12 sonic 2d10 divine myco is 6d12 acid 2d8 magic locathah 8d12 elec 2d10 neg toy is 6d12 fire 2d8 pos pom is 8d12 fire 2d10 neg Dis - 3x 16 ELE 16 EXO 2x 2D12 EXO lvl 50 5D12 ELE and 5D12 EXO aby are 6x 6d6 random ELE *or* EXO see also: Area WeaponsThe question is, what's next? Bearing in mind healing, and that buffs add 4 dice in most situations, here are some possibilities. I am not promising that we will implement any particular one of these, but we are likely adding two sets of set weapons soon. 6d12 ELE 6d12 ELE 6d12 EXO 12d12 ELE 10d12 ELE 4d12 EXO 8d12 ELE 8d12 ELE 8d12 ELE 8d12 EXO I'm not going to elaborate on which weapons will be in which set, but it is entirely possible that we split up all weapon types into two groups of set weapons, half in each. It's also possible that we will take a few dice off of any of the above possible damage configurations. The point of this thread is to solicit opinions on which would be preferable, and why. You will note this is not a poll. If you simply post saying 'option X is teh aw3sum' you will probably not have much influence on the outcome. You can post requesting more information, but I suspect most or all of the relevant information is above, so I may just ignore the question if its about where they will be dropping, which elements/exotics, etc. This is about game balance, not your particular build/s. [EDIT] I should also add that answers making mention of improving tanks v casters will also likely be ignored as shortsighted/lacking in perspective. Yes, we know tanks are "useless" right now. This thread is not about addressing that issue, at all. [EDIT2] These weapons will likely all be the same damage type, similar to other sets, rather than being randomized like abyss weapons. There will likely be at least 4 or 5 sets of these weapons total, in order to cover all the ELE damage types, depending on what configuration we go with. Some of those sets will release sooner than others, and we might wind up skipping one of the elements, depending (or not). These will probably have attack/enhance only. Thank you in advance for your input! Funky
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Post by desocupado on Feb 20, 2016 22:30:10 GMT
I'm a fan of "12d12 ELE" since that is quite universal and different from the current "mega damage weapons" of LL areas and the level 50 weapons. But will it be a single element per weapon type or one version of each elemental? Or will it work like a level 50 weapon?
I'm surprise there isn't a "mega exotic damage" for a truly different weapon. Did you consider something like that? (just 10d12 EXO) Or even a "6d12 EXO 6d12 EXO"?
8d12 ELE 8d12 ELE seems pretty good too. It might surpass DB as a generic lazy weapon for non Pal/Bg tanks. In fact I'l take this issue in detail further ahead. Speaking of which does any end-game enemy take more than 1 type of exotic?
What about keen and attack/enhancement bonus? Will those weapons have it?
-------- It might be good to list the character classes that have different influence on weapons:
Pal and BG really want divine on their weapon SD and Lash want negative Melee Ranger wants positive Pariah helps magic Staff master can do with pretty much anything but prefer high numbers and less damage types. (probably 2x 8d12)
These classes make 8d12 ELE 8d12 EXO seem the preferable choice.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 20, 2016 22:50:52 GMT
I'm a fan of "12d12 ELE" since that is quite universal and different from the current "mega damage weapons" of LL areas and the level 50 weapons. But will it be a single element per weapon type or one version of each elemental? Or will it work like a level 50 weapon?I'm surprise there isn't a "mega exotic damage" for a truly different weapon. Did you consider something like that? (just 10d12 EXO) Or even a "6d12 EXO 6d12 EXO"?8d12 ELE 8d12 ELE seems pretty good too. It might surpass DB as a generic lazy weapon for non Pal/Bg tanks. In fact I'l take this issue in detail further ahead. Speaking of which does any end-game enemy take more than 1 type of exotic?What about keen and attack/enhancement bonus? Will those weapons have it?-------- It might be good to list the character classes that have different influence on weapons: Pal and BG really want divine on their weapon SD and Lash want negative Melee Ranger wants positive Pariah helps magic Staff master can do with pretty much anything but prefer high numbers and less damage types. (probably 2x 8d12) These classes make 8d12 ELE 8d12 EXO seem the preferable choice. Good queestions! What I get for saying what I did. These weapons will likely all be the same damage type, similar to other sets, rather than being randomized like abyss weapons. There will likely be at least 4 or 5 sets of these weapons total, in order to cover all the ELE damage types, depending on what configuration we go with. Some of those sets will release sooner than others, and we might wind up skipping one of the elements, depending (or not). We did consider a mega exotic damage weapon. We may consider it again at some point. These will probably have attack/enhance only. We did figure that a number of classes would prefer a high exo number on something. Can you elaborate on your conclusion that 'these classes make 8d12 ELE 8d12 EXO . . . preferable?' Thanks, Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 20, 2016 22:56:15 GMT
Edited original post in light of questions.
Funky
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 23:02:53 GMT
Couple of clarification questions:
1) Are these weapons designed for Limbo specifically (ie: supposed to be an *upgrade* of existing options)? Or will they drop in some LL run and be designed to cater for anywhere 40+? Judging by the magnitude of the numbers, I would guess they are indeed for Limbo?
2) Might be a bad question (since you have implied otherwise in the OP), but would they be craft-able with gems to select the elemental/exotic damage types?
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 20, 2016 23:53:33 GMT
uro is 8d12cold 2d10 pos - Average buffed damage: 89 dulv 8d12 cold 2d10 neg - Average buffed damage: 89 ssith is 6d12 elec 2d8 divine - Average buffed damage: 74 hive is 8d12 sonic 2d10 magic - Average buffed damage: 89 aboleths are 4d12, acid cold and neg - Average buffed damage: 156 ely is 8d12 sonic 2d10 divine - Average buffed damage: 89 myco is 6d12 acid 2d8 magic - Average buffed damage: 74 locathah 8d12 elec 2d10 neg - Average buffed damage: 89 toy is 6d12 fire 2d8 pos - Average buffed damage: 74 pom is 8d12 fire 2d10 neg - Average buffed damage: 89
Dis - 3x 16 ELE 16 EXO 2x 2D12 EXO - Average buffed damage: 185 - (assuming 2 exos buffed by 3 dice for this)
lvl 50 5D12 ELE and 5D12 EXO - Average buffed damage: 110.5
aby are 6x 6d6 random ELE *or* EXO - Average for 3-ele buffed: 189 - Average for 4-ele buffed, with two buffable exo: 203
DB - 3x2d12 ele 3x2d12 exo - Average buffed damage: 195
6d12 ELE 6d12 ELE 6d12 EXO - Average buffed damage (if buffable exo): 188.5 12d12 ELE - Average buffed damage: 104 10d12 ELE 4d12 EXO - Average buffed damage: 136.5 8d12 ELE 8d12 ELE - Average buffed damage: 156 8d12 ELE 8d12 EXO - Average buffed damage: 149.5 Ran all the numbers on those for no good reason except to show that the damage numbers don't really mean much. A weapon, such as a 4-ele abyss weapon might technically have the highest damage potential (203 buffed) but it might not even deal as much as a level 50 if that level 50 weapon is ideally suited to that enemy (due to resistances, immunities, etc). That being said, I think the ideal formulation among the proposed damage types is the 6d12/6d12/6d12 since it not only has the highest "buffed damage" at 188.5, but it also hits the sweet spot for damage types, since usually an enemy will have one element they're weak against, as well as a secondary element that can be used, and usually a single exo that works well. Another concern that makes me lean towards the three damage weapon is ... I don't want to have to find/carry/buff all those different weapons, especially on a dual-wielder. It seems like it could get tedious. This way I can just use three (or six if dual) and have all my bases covered.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 23:56:10 GMT
Sorry for double-post, more on topic here:
Currently the primary area where weapon swapping is most critical is in the Abyss, I don't really play tanks there so please take my relatively uneducated opinion with a grain of salt. (a) Due to buffing inconvenience it is *usually* considered tedious to buff more than 3 weapons per tank in a run. Weapons that already have +15 enhancement (eg: Min weapons) are partially exempt from this constraint. (b) Many mobs in the Abyss will take 2 elements and 1 exotic better than everything else, with every element being optimal at some point, but some more commonly than others (eg: Fire is good against *many* enemies).
Taking (a) and (b) together, it seems intuitive that a weapon with 1-2 damage types may not be suitable as a 'general weapon' in most cases (12d12 Fire in Abyss might be an exception), because you would need lots of them (covering different elements/exotics) to be buffed. However, depending on if there are particularly dangerous mobs which take PERFECT damage from them (think Balor/Molydeus/Marilith), they could be an excellent niche weapon swap IF you were able to cover all your other weapon needs with only two weapons.
With 3 damage types (eg: 2x elements + 1x exotic), there is potential to be a 'general weapon', and with optimised damage versions I think they would be a significant upgrade to DB weapons IF you swapped appropriately (this would be a particularly good carrot to reward weapon swapping more than it currently is rewarded). However, just like the previous case, this is quite dependent on what the exact damage types are.
If they are craftable with gems, I can see the 3-damage weapons getting a lot of use by veterans, as a stronger but harder-to-use version of DB weapons (they deal a lot more against the right targets, and a lot less against the wrong targets). If not, then it really does depend on exactly what is placed on the weapon by the developers - if they are designed with key endgame tank-targets in mind (essentially pre-crafted), they could definitely be quite good.
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Post by desocupado on Feb 20, 2016 23:57:08 GMT
Since the classes above can buff exotic damage, they want to choose a weapon with said damage type as well.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 21, 2016 0:12:26 GMT
Since the classes above can buff exotic damage, they want to choose a weapon with said damage type as well. I get that. My question was more about why that, rather than some other consideration, should determine which set to use. Popularity or lack thereof of those classes? I see you are posting via mobile, so I understand if it's difficult to elaborate much. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 21, 2016 0:46:30 GMT
Sorry for double-post, more on topic here: Currently . . . FORBIDDEN QUESTIONS! They will probably not be craftable. They ARE intended to be upgrades. Supposing that, thoughts on theses damage pairings?: Sonic/pos Acid/neg Fire/mag Elec/div Feel free to suggest other pairings. Obviously Cold is left out of the above. Also feel free to suggest El/El/Ex pairings, or whatever of the combinations you decide you prefer. Thanks, Funky
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 21, 2016 1:17:21 GMT
F/A/P A/C/N F/S/D E/C/M E/S/D
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2016 5:14:19 GMT
Supposing that, thoughts on theses damage pairings?: Sonic/pos Acid/neg Fire/mag Elec/div Feel free to suggest other pairings. Obviously Cold is left out of the above. Also feel free to suggest El/El/Ex pairings, or whatever of the combinations you decide you prefer. Thanks, Funky Ah my few comments there are the limit of my (lack of) weapon expertise, I'll leave actual combination suggestions to guys who know better (eg: Raj/Woku/Laser).
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Post by chirality on Feb 21, 2016 5:41:12 GMT
With limit of 5 combinations in the set, uncraftable weapons would best be limited to extreme damage each of 1ele/1exo in Set (for minimum conflict with healing types/swapping necessity). In this case, 8d12/8d12 would be the bare minimum potential damage to be a true upgrade. For this, the 5 you (Funky) listed seem "okay"/"can't get much better than that", although as a rule, F/p should be included. S/x is inherently weak due extreme low count of best-type-sonic mobs; the value of sonic in current mod is rather as a "universal" type, but the existence of craftable multi-ele DB/randomizable multi-ele Abyss weapons makes sonic a "safe 3rd type" (due extreme lack of sonic healers + many mobs that take sonic as 2nd-best-tied-with-another ele type. To clarify, any new set weapon with 1 ele type that has sonic would only be an upgrade when used in Ely (and then when paired with neg, NOT pos ); otherwise C/x and F/x would always be preferable outside nessus/abyss (for ichor/worm+some abyss prios), in which case at best E/x and A/x would be no true "upgrade" but at least no worse (due elec and acid both being fine types on some mobs, but rarely "best"; rather same as cold or fire. The only true reasonable exceptions I can think are Laghathti (which also take sonic well, so crafted DB or random abyss with E+S would easily outshine a few higher elec dice; alkilith, and Goristro which is a quite 1-sided mob: either it's IoM'd or it's beaten down with focused caster artillery (even perfectly-crafted/randomized and fully-buffed weapon used by tank produces quite pathetic per/hit damage, even with 2h %boost; sup/leet being often too "resistant" to IoM to be any time-saver vs damage, but sheer extreme hp means mage with karsus is doing the heavy lifting, not tank. Alkilith obviously would benefit from mega12d12 elec weap, but given caster/shifter elec delivery, + leet alki far less hp/timesucker than leet goristro and doesn't suck UUU/take up entire screen, this hardly seems to justify existence of E/x weapon. Acid 12d12 would be quite nice but doubtful to outshine 6d12 fire/6d12 acid + 3 working exos; and acid cannot pair universally with any 1 exo, because a/n would heal undead (of which provides good case of mob for tanks to smash taking acid better than fire, and these 2 far outperform the other 3 eles for those cases, although sonic "works", so tough argument to make vs AFS+no neg DB/abyss) Set B (of 2-type scheme for both sets) would include 1ele/1ele 8d12 and be an arguable upgrade/not terrible downgrade vs perfectly-crafted/randomized DB/abyss with proper combinations: F/A, F/C, C/A, E/A, E/F, (notice conspicuous lack of sonic, and E/S or A/S could be added only to include sonic if we require its inclusion and paired with elec or acid to be a perfect weapon vs anything, otherwise first 5 are no worse). (deso conclusion of "might surpass" for "generic lazy" weapon is puzzling, since 12d12+12d12 of proper ele types would be very nice damage as well as low-to-zero hassle heal/swap conflict) Craftable weapons would require at least 2 ele types in order to be an upgrade vs crafted DB/well-randomized Abyss. Div buff cap at 2 dice, and is by far most widespread/easy to assume present; mag 3dice and probably safe to assume present (especially in Limbo where we expect pariah to be popular ) despite rumor that SD will be OP in limbo (I assume due negbuff? or will expect so for purpose of this discussion), I don't think negbuff shall be assumed safely to be widespread (and btw if SD becomes so appealing as to be "required" in party for negbuff or any other reason, everyone except nahorl will puke) so reliance on high-dice exo type as "upgrade" is hard to convince unless it's 8ele/10exo, and again, S/p would be aggravatingly bad in Ely and rarely an advantageous upgrade anywhere else. Cold and Fire shall be focused on as ele type upgrades, as with rare exceptions (such as lagh, alki, goristro, ignoring various trash/instafodder that tank shouldnt hit anyway) one or the other is the best or tied-as-best type on every extant mob, with A or E or S (the 3 separately; AES weapon is indeed "a thing" albeit one of most specialized weapons in arsenal) at best equal-to or 2nd-place (some even-rarer exceptions such as a than undead where acid better than fire, but regardless db/abyss weap with both acid+fire 6d12/6d12 should outperform or barely beat acid 12d12 alone, except acid/pos which is poor combination anywhere else). I know nothing of Limbo mob stats/best 3 ele types for them, so I'm speaking only of application as upgrade in current mod. For instance, if S/p is intended to be quite uber in Limbo, then there is a compromise required to "not be a downgrade" vs optimal weapons in current areas and "be perfect upgrade" in future areas (S/p example being useful but never uber enough to outweigh crafted DB/workable 4-ele abyss in current mod). uncraftable set of 5 ele/ele/exo weaps (different story with 6 or more available combos, but then issue of collecting them becomes very ugly, and after all latest HG trend is against grinding and against increased time investment, which already is harsh for any "normal" lifestyle) is quite hard to justify as any true upgrade vs perfect/"almost perfect but at least doesn't heal" DB/abyss, and even moreso for nice 4-type abyss without poor exo combo. I would advise against uncraftable dual-ele weapons, because when paired with exo, there are simply too many healer combinations to be avoided and too spread-out universality across hells and abyss both. To clarify, AFp is the only one that would share upgrade status in both hell and abyss as truly optimal+noheal upgrade vs current optimal weapons; anything else that is optimal in hells is suboptimal in abyss, and vice versa; and as well 4 extra dice each of A+F would not make up for lack of sonic on AFp target mobs; thereby making at best equal to AFSdmp which is the only current 6-type combination that is optimal in both hells and abyss, and 12d12 A + 12d12 F + 8d12 p (no pos party buff so no, I'm not considering it as worth valuing) would not provide an upgrade in damage vs 6d12 A + 6d12 F + 6d12 S + 4d12 d + 5d12 m + 2d12 p. If you skip through this post, at least be aware of false over-emphasis on usefulness of exo type (due 1/2 potential buffed dice + only mag+div being acceptable to assume meaningful buff and only mag hits 3; + abundance of tank-prio-target exo healers) as upgrade for current mod; and be aware of extreme attractiveness of fire + cold (do not pair either with exo type that prevents their attractiveness-as-upgrade in current mod); and be aware of any uncraftable ele/ele/exo weapon being no upgrade unless there are at least 6 different perfect no-hassle combinations available (and to be farmed up, to our dismay: 3 for hells, 3 for abyss): otherwise we will just use perfect crafted db/nice random abyss in place of at least 1 "newset" weapon. Btw, abos weapons are total trash and might be a great platform to "test" new weapons until Limbo. Or just delete them from the game and put a UR aug/giant chest of gold instead.
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Post by Raj on Feb 21, 2016 12:30:22 GMT
Option 2 is teh suxx0r. I ran the same numbers in Semner spoiler even when comparing the old megadamage weapons, always assuming a full set of elemental buffs for end game party balance. Anyway, multiple exotic buffs available are quite a rare sight, and positive is not even available if not for the ranger own weapon. The way existing end game mobs are designed, multiple exotic damage is a weak option most of the time: hell mobs usually are 100/100 immune to 2 exotics, 70-80 to a third, 20-30 to the fourth, while abyss mobs are somewhat more vulnerable but often sport some flat dr/- that hurts the lower-dice exotics buffs; there was some speculation about limbo critters being more susceptible to exotic rather than elemental damage, but without spoilered datas and with the actual strength and availability of buffs I'm not going to rate exotic damage that hot when comparing db/dis/abyss weapons. This was to say that, in theory, weapons with 2-3 dices of exotic damage are weaker than they look on paper; the problem with (uncraftable) megadamage weapons is that they pretty much never come ahead of a (crafted) db/dis weapon that covers the 2-3 elements a enemy is usually weak to. Let take the iconic pit fiend (30%cold/50%sonic/70%elec-30%div/80%pos imms, no ele/exo dr) as example: you can use a buffed uro weap 12d12 cold 2d10 pos dmg for 78*70%+11*20% = 56.8 average dmg, or a commonly crafted buffed CES db weap for 39*70%+39*50%+39*30% = 27.3 19.5 11.7 = 58.5 avg dmg, not even counting possible divine damage on db one for additional 9.1-18.2 buffed/unbuffed damage. The example above might look biased but thinking about it, from a rich/endgame fighter perspective, you are going to have perfectly crafted weapons against the few enemies that matter (and those atm all take more than 1 single elemental damage type), defeating the very basic megadamage weapon purpose (''be great against selected vulnerable targets''). Weapon buffs also add the same amount of dices no matter the weapon: if both standard endgame weapons and megadmg ones use the d12, the former come vastly ahead once buffed (and for balance purpose, I'm assuming they are always buffed, at least with elemental buffs provided by the core casters). Where megadamage weapons might come ahead is against (uncrittable) foes with flat damage resistance: that's a quite hidden stat that takes some time to estrapolate from a player point of view: it is usually so high (moly, orcus) or so low/inexistent (hell creatures) that buffing a specific weapon is not going to help much; alkiliths and aboleths stand out as perfect targets for megadamage weapons but the balance has to be made on the critters side (15-20 dr to make so that only megadmg weapons pierce it by a reasonable amount). At the moment this balance is not adequate, and at the same time it's a delicate matter because favoring big dmg packets means helping casters where the mobs aren't specifically designed with SR (alkis) or spell immunity/undispellable mantles (abos). Omg buff tanks not casters!!!This long rambling only to state the obvious: currently, nobody rich enough to craft multiple weapons is using the existing megadamage ones in endgame. Given how there're not many enemies vulnerable to just a single damage type (notable exceptions just the aboleths, and don't make me start a 'nerf shifter poison breath' rant... damn too late ), of all the proposed weapons I can only see the 6d12/6d12/6d12 or 8d12/8d12 something that could have a niche. Since they aren't going to be craftable (and this can be a good thing actually, I'll explain below) the former is probably going to be the preferred one as long as the combinations allow for some worthy use. This is where a (on paper) good dice combination, the aboleth set weapons, failed. Acid+Cold+Neg is a terrible, terrible combination (the weak cornugons? or very rare bueroza/palrethee). Since you said you're going for 5 sets to allow enough variance to cover all types, the following would be good combinations (with the current areas in mind, and aimed at the big boys tanks should focus on and not heal): Cold/Elec/Div, Acid/Sonic/Neg, Fire/Cold/Pos, Fire/Sonic/Mag, Acid/Elec/Pos. They are not by all means the ultimate weapon types, but mesh quite nicely with existing sets imo, and allow for good damage against the ely/hell/abyss relevant foes, at the same time not healing. Added benefit, there're 2 weapons for each element and only one exo had to be taken twice. Semner suggested combinations follow same logic but they aren't going to be used much because some fail at targeting anything specific or the exotic damage heal the relevant paragon target. Also lacking a sonic/something/neg combo for ely and listing the same sucky acid/cold/neg already present in aboleths. If you know something about limbo/ee critters feel free to share but a limbo-only weapon is not going to be coveted enough. Since this is the time of the year we dust off the weapon changes balance, it would be a nice thing to play with megadamage types to balance underused weapons: the current weak weapons should be the ones combining the ''right'' base damage type with the ''perfect'' ele/exo damage types the set ones would be designed against. This means that the Cold/Elec/Div set that is so good against alkiliths/arcane oozes and quite good against pit fiends should certainly include longswords and battleaxes, and some bludgeoning weapon. Any piercing weapon in this set wouldn't really act as a megadamage choice, it would fit nicely in the Acid/Sonic/Neg one instead. Those weapons deemed overpowered could have a more limited selection of megadamage options as well. Once we have a definitive selection of damage sets and hopefully some hint about the immunities of the most common no-fodder limbo critters, a detailed table could be compiled, for now it's just food for thoughts. Or surprise me It's worth note that weapon stats balance could be approached with less script intensive work just by limiting/expanding special weapons availability, a bit like rona weapons and stygian razor made some weapon choices extremely popular once upon a time, or how pre-forge light flails and other weapons with ''perfect'' damage type against the strongest foes were high in demand as well: uncraftable good weapons could go a long way favoring some build diversity. On a related note, I do not think the actual (or some proposed) megadamage alternatives are viable, at all, even for less min-maxed players in presence of badly crafted/standard weapons. The necessity to buff all weapons is very derimental to tanks (and casters having to buff them) quality of life. Making 5x 12D12 ELE set versions and expecting a tank to carry all of them and a caster to buff all of them to fight some niche creature vulnerable to just 1 damage type is asking for caster-only parties. The buffs interaction is anyway a classic of d&d and a staple point of this server, changing everything at this point is not feasible. Anyway, having the megadamage weapons come with 'pre-built' weapon and damage enhancement, and at same time made impossible to buff further, would open a very good market for them (soloers, small parties without all caster types, or just alternate weapon against healers that you do not have to beg buffs for) without alter the module balance at all, for the end-game full-core parties. How code-able would be raising existing megadmg weapons dices by 4 (ele) + 2 (exo, let keep it realistic low) and give a error message to anybody targeting them (or the wielder, even if dualwielding to prevent exploits on offhand) with a weapon buff? tl;dr: 6d12/6d12/6d12 ele/ele/exo; forge made megadamage weapons obsolete; I need limbo critter stats for further examining; more cool set options for underused weapons; random unasked suggestion requiring scripting duty.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 21, 2016 14:25:06 GMT
Semner suggested combinations follow same logic but they aren't going to be used much because some fail at targeting anything specific or the exotic damage heal the relevant paragon target. Also lacking a sonic/something/neg combo for ely and listing the same sucky acid/cold/neg already present in aboleths. If you know something about limbo/ee critters feel free to share but a limbo-only weapon is not going to be coveted enough. Eh, was in a hurry and my reason for doing them that way was probably counter-intuitive: main concern was to avoid a weapon where one class could both of their own elements on a weapon. Maybe that's a silly concern.
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