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Post by chirality on Feb 24, 2016 21:50:49 GMT
Isn't that precisely what we use rogue for anyway  The advantage would be not sitting around watching rogue pick/loot important chests, which is the main issue with "1 banker and no one else touch it cuz rogue TSes it" (other classes can search/pick with rogsplash and not be a real rogue; rogue can do it all at once by taking up only 1 party slot, without having taken a searcher ranger only for secrets and not for picking or taking a lootmage that still isn't going to be only arcane in party) rogue as a class is designed to be high-value in d20 system for a "PnP" style setting, or "vanilla campaign" style setting, where jack-of-all-trades is useful; where a guy that can be a warrior decently + smooth-talk diplomacy\find secrets is useful and not avilable to anyone with rogsplash+able learner+specialized HG gear offtopic but this is part of why our main (fine, not "only", but without 2h bonus rogue wasn't a huge damage dealer anyway, and only reinced-vet-rogue is pulling off 2h) incentive for having rogue in party is to have it get forge secrets/open uber DC chests for sexy lewt in endgame (lowbie secrets/locked chests are universally a joke and disgrace, improving these would really help a lot of issues discussed lately like 1-40 levels/newbie retention/etc) rogue got a bad rep as "standalone value" on HG for many reasons: including requiring presence of another tank to flank for sneak, and without ancient xbow improvement still being en vogue, it was reduced to a BBoD that picks/searches better than anyone else; now with 2h bonus it can do those tasks and (with OP mstar in hand ) also be a very nice damage source; but ultimately it comes down to what were by intent to be "rogueskills", this always was DnD rogue's value and in PnP campaign it shouldn't be as easy to cheese class balance system by splashing and gaining full rogue skills on any class at any level; there is no use for Diplomacy to smooth-talk through situations where fighting isn't an option/is a bad option; there's no XP reward for good RP or RPing rather than combat; there's no value in "underworld connections" or having guy in your party willing to loot corpses (since no one else is willing to) or Disguise; there is no value in blackmarket goods (as discussed in past, stolen goods merchant is a total joke) and the extreme value of rogue comes from asmo in to places asmo-able or being dragged to places not asmo-able to improve party's treasure/secrets in places where not getting that treasure is a huge blow (nessus ez example) |
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Post by versengeteriks on Feb 24, 2016 21:53:40 GMT
Something to boost the die on sneaks from d6 to d8 and then another to boost higher?
Some kind of ability to cause bleeding wounds that continue to cause damage after the hit?
A Cutpurse that after a failed DC check the target drops all carried items?
Targetted attacks: Hamstringing to slow a target, Blinding attacks to poke out eyes? some other attacks that can reduce a Char stat? str, dex con etc...
not real ideas, just brainstorming......
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 24, 2016 21:58:35 GMT
An increase from d6 to d8 on sneak attacks is an increase in damage of 20 on average for a pure rogue. That's the equivalent of 4 feats. A wee bit much, I'd say.
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Post by Raj on Feb 24, 2016 22:19:34 GMT
I know that the lack of a wereable Farseer ego turned me down from playing a AA in past (ye, before we decided they suck no matter what  ), it's really a huge power boost and the lack of it (or similar proposed rogue one) would be a huge turnoff, worse than comparing a open race no arti caster to a bur one in my book. ''CL'' for tanks and some dc/special ability boost would be welcome anyway, but plenty of 'easy to implement' good suggestions in the other thread as well. |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 25, 2016 1:29:12 GMT
''CL'' for tanks and some dc/special ability boost would be welcome anyway, but plenty of 'easy to implement' good suggestions in the other thread as well. Such as? I haven't seen much discussion. So far the only one I tend to like is the sneak boost, and it is not easy to implement, at least not for me. Acaos may be able to. We could add a special ability that required Flanked status, without too much fuss, but sneak dice are trickier. Funky |
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Post by desocupado on Feb 25, 2016 1:39:16 GMT
Greater smite CL/AB
CoT/SD/XDD/Monk/Self Concealment : aura level / concealment value
Fighter Greater skills CL/DC
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Post by Raj on Feb 25, 2016 2:07:05 GMT
''CL'' for tanks and some dc/special ability boost would be welcome anyway, but plenty of 'easy to implement' good suggestions in the other thread as well. Such as? I haven't seen much discussion. So far the only one I tend to like is the sneak boost, and it is not easy to implement, at least not for me. Acaos may be able to. We could add a special ability that required Flanked status, without too much fuss, but sneak dice are trickier. Funky Some solid suggestions, and to my surprise, most look fairly easy to implement. I admit I didn't read those in detail, I thought you made up your mind already Delaying every possible new suggestion for after priorities 1-735 btw. |
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Post by simpetar on Feb 25, 2016 9:29:17 GMT
Eye-gouging: Successful sneak attacks cause the target to suffer (Rogue lvl + LLs)% miss chance for X rounds (as if hit by Rainbow Pattern).
Distracting: Successful sneak attacks cause the target to suffer (Rogue lvl + LLs)% spell failure chance for X rounds.
EDIT: Slightly off-topic, could get access to Use Poison feat at certain class level? It seems very rogue-ish and the hell poisons would add another layer of usefulness.
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Post by versengeteriks on Feb 25, 2016 13:32:15 GMT
More sneaky tricks..
Again, brainstorming. Quantity not Quality of ideas with me. I like to whittle them after I've invented them. mostly crap. But if i throw enough some might stick.
Automatic parry?: the first attack parried per round is automatically a success?
Cut the cords: reduce enemy AC as the rogue cuts the straps....
Blade Entanglement: Enemy loses some attacks per round due to skillful swordsman ship, or sneaky skill like dirt in the eye, cloak thrown over the weapon...Getting wedgied,, shoe laces tied together, belt cut on trousers.... You get the idea...
caltrops update the way work. if these things exist improve them
thrown dust like a blinding or slowing spell. Or if these things exist improve them too.
Thrown bee's nests or grenades with attacking ants inside..
Never unarmed: Always has basic weapon hidden on them. Relative to Char level, that will work against all creatures in that area..
Thrown money/Robin Hood lvl 1: throws d6 x level gold (from your account), causes enemies to become confused and fight among themselves while they try to grab what they can. (range? area dispersed?)
LVl 2: each point of gold also does damage if save is failed...
'trix
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Post by drunkenboastor on Feb 25, 2016 23:59:03 GMT
For my rogue, I use bluff skill to maximize the the number of sneak attacks I can perform during a run. To be effective the skill has to be 127, getting the skill to that level is not easy. The best augmenters cap at +10 to bluff and there is very little equipment that has it as an added skill, persuade is another skill with this issue. I think for any tank type, having one of persuade, taunt or bluff is a good thing to always be utilizing swift actions.
I would like to suggest for each of taunt, bluff and persuade an ego type aug available that would give skill focus, epic skill focus and +50 ( I know the cap is +35, but with randomization it could go down if it's base was +35 ) to the skill. To make it more egoish could allow 2 attempts per round like weapon masters get for disarm and kd.
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Post by Yrini on Oct 15, 2016 18:35:25 GMT
Maybe the ego item could be made a bit like the set of cards. You can use it only once, it will be set then and bound to that toon. This way a few suggestions can be used, but still a gamble. It can be great if you gain say a better sneak, a better pickpocket or whatever, but it can also be a complete failure. Suits a (full) rogue imo.
Had some thoughts about what could be in this gamble, too.
- Better sneak could be one of them, cause I don't think it would be easy to make something like a DC system for sneaks (somewhat the same like the songpoints system for a bard; its not fair, I know; ever heard of a mob being immune for songs? Well, they can be deaf). But sneak immune will for a rogue always mean: little damage. Maybe the rogue himself should gain sneakimmunity.
- Being able to use poison is certainly on the list.
- It would be nice if a rogue could gain access to some low, but still useful spells (and the foci with it) with this ego item, so he could in fact reach higher lvls with casting than just using scrolls. Say he could gain SF, ESF and even LSF conjuration and access to the spell grease with an ego. Which spells has to be looked at, I'm sure we can think of a few. (Extended True Strike?)
- Maybe the ego item could influence the randomizing system, so the rogue has more chance on well randomized items?
- Gain automatic access to certain areas where now long runs are needed for? I know he can Asmo in, but then there has to be someone. Imagine he could port right into the start of the Maze, Myco, PoM, Thids, Loca and maybe more. A bit lousy, but you can't have it all. A variation on this theme could be he could skip certain areas, that rogue just has its sneaky ways. Not totally sure, but maybe enough to have fun.
- More loose ideas:
-- He can scribe scrolls? I mean wizards can open locks as well...
-- He can use epic spells? I mean wizards with one rogue lvl can use his amulet, so why not the other way around? The Ego item might give acces to say Missile Barrage 1x/day?
-- Once a day he can use other specialties from other classes. I do like Paragon of Polymathy, and since arcanes can steal from the rogue, why wouldnt a rogue be able to steal from them? Imagine he can - 1x/day - be in a terrible rage?
I do hope this stimulates the making of that Ego item, I surely think the rogue deserves one!
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Post by chirality on Oct 15, 2016 22:10:53 GMT
Maybe the ego item could be made a bit like the set of cards. You can use it only once, it will be set then and bound to that toon. This way a few suggestions can be used, but still a gamble. nuhu. don't need any new reasons for -HC- to complain about reinc it can also be a complete failure. Suits a (full) rogue imo. lulz, it sure does, matter of fact seriously though, that's just painful. rogue deserves something nice, not a crapshoot within a crapshoot. But sneak immune will for a rogue always mean: little damage. it sounds bad when we phrase it like that, but in the big picture, sneak attacks are nice, not a thing that handicaps rogue (like 3/4 BAB, lack of good +skill gear) - Being able to use poison is certainly on the list. eh, that's one of the few things bg and assin can call their own. i disagree. not all rogues are ninja wannabes; the class represents the broadest archetype flavor-wise (soldier scout tailor spy amirite and poison only makes sense for evil toons in the first place) - Maybe the ego item could influence the randomizing system, so the rogue has more chance on well randomized items? sounds awesome at first but ehhh, might be more effort than worth to implement, i dunno. hard to effectively balance and prevent unintended use--if it only works when rogue pops loot, it's back to TS rants; if it works if rogue is in party, then it's back to botdrag rants. anything revolving around improving loot is subject to creating or exacerbating issues of either forcing rogue to be banker vs being incentivized as a bot. - Gain automatic access to certain areas where now long runs are needed for? I know he can Asmo in, but then there has to be someone. Imagine he could port right into the start of the Maze, Myco, PoM, Thids, Loca and maybe more. A bit lousy, but you can't have it all. A variation on this theme could be he could skip certain areas, that rogue just has its sneaky ways. Not totally sure, but maybe enough to have fun. i like this a lot tbh, but not really as an ego. the port to run thing is nice (anyone who's ever been inside a certain guildhall has envy of great cavern portal for sure) and nifty/QoL enhancing. the second part is cool; could offer a chance to explore a different take on "secrets" with "tunnels" instead of just rooms w/ loot in them. something close in concept to this is the secret rest-safe room in rona which makes it feel alot cooler than just a lootspot. imo this is cool, but honestly it feels like something that should just exist for the sake of making rogues cooler, independent of ego I mean wizards can open locks as well... yeah, if they're rogues.... I mean wizards with one rogue lvl can use his amulet well, if u mean the unmoliated version, then yes (but of course so can anyone else, not like it's worth wearing); as for the moliated one, nope I do like Paragon of Polymathy, and since arcanes can steal from the rogue, why wouldnt a rogue be able to steal from them? Imagine he can - 1x/day - be in a terrible rage? this, along with the scribe/cast lowbie spells ideas, seems a lot more like arcane trickster or spellthief class, not rogue. they already get umd which is decently good in HG as it is. (ofc for people with the tags and gold to suit up their vaults with demi rods it's virtually useless, but hey, for poor people GS/BBoD/StF scrolls are a pretty big QoL improvement) imo it's hard to invent rogue ego ideas without having them end up sounding more like class feature buff/innovation, and (again, imo) rogue ego should reduce down to improving things they already do and thereby boost build options, not manufacturing new options for them to use. safest bet, as lame and boring as it might sound to people dreaming of magical caltrops, paragon spellsteal, or special attack tricks, is prolly simple +CL as stated previously. it also fits into established precedent of "option enhancing" egoes best (aka CL, SP), as opposed to established precedent of stale annoying egoes (aka AA, turner) by improving given class' trademark features to the point of indicating how bad the class is without one; and when it comes to items so critical to performance that lacking one is terrible, rogue already has wrap to fill that role due to poor +taunt/pers gear options, ego that provides +skill bonuses is more appealing at first glance than many other ideas, but it directly conflicts with min/max and gearing (it'd be like if caster egoes only gave huge slots and existed only to compete with other gear as options) on the one hand, as well as stalling the impetus for just creating the gear to use in the first place. |
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Post by desocupado on Oct 15, 2016 22:33:44 GMT
Not necessary rogue restricted...
How about an ego that grants an extra attack if your BAB is 15 or less?
A 5% bonus for Non-spell concealment is another good one (also work for sd and monks)
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Post by woqued on Oct 15, 2016 23:19:55 GMT
Simple but boring -
True Talent - +4 to all skills outside magical cap?
Nothing gamebreaking, but extremely useful. Both for ease of access to search/lockpicking/distrap but also to hit the wanted high hide/listen/parry/disc; and also to hit the magical 80 or 120 on cw/ca, or even to hit the needed amount on pickpocket to hit it on various nasties. And depending on if you use bluff/persuade; helps there too. Would be useful as swapin / swapout item if it rolls on a poor item, and useful on a good item due to the combat skills and lesser need for swapping items for chests. Power + Quality of Life in one package!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 2:14:45 GMT
Kind of off-topic, but since it was necro'd... I'm on-board with melee/Rogue-specific Egos, but I would prefer to see some pruning of the current Ego selection first. I agree that Egos should be very rare and hard to acquire (in the past I've responded negatively to suggestions of excessive simplification), but ~half of the Ego table is JUNK that rarely/never gets worn in the first place. It's a major kick in the balls to find pink text on an upgraded BUR, then notice that the Ego itself is so useless that the item is better off being Pulpa'd. My picks would be: *Merge all six Shifter Shape DC Egos into one; it makes little sense for them to be divided by shape in the first place, and this either clogs the Ego table or makes finding the desired shape disproportionately difficult compared to other toons. *Remove AA/SD Egos and grant their abilities to those classes by default; other combat classes don't rely on Egos to boost their damage output/secret functionality, and both these classes are really underwhelming overall right now. Being expected to rely on an Ego is just kicking them while they're down. *Remove CL Egos for all 'semi-casters' (Assassin/Ranger/Paladin/Blackguard); they get extremely limited benefits from these in the vast majority of cases, and Assassins/Rangers already have clashing DC Egos anyway. A more appropriate Ego for Paladin/Blackguard could be something which improves Smiting (and thus would also be usable by Champion of Torm), which might also add some variance to the meta-game since Smiters have become less popular compared to straight combat toons. *Remove Bard Song/Quivering Palm Egos; extremely niche choices and they are practically never worth nerfing an item slot to wear. --- More on topic, I strongly agree with Raj's point: Delaying every possible new suggestion for after priorities 1-735 btw. AND also agree with this one too: I know that the lack of a wereable Farseer ego turned me down from playing a AA in past (ye, before we decided they suck no matter what ), it's really a huge power boost and the lack of it (or similar proposed rogue one) would be a huge turnoff, worse than comparing a open race no arti caster to a bur one in my book. Ego boosts should indeed provide a neat improvement to a class feature, not 'make-or-break' flat power boosts that really hurt to miss out on (in fact these are better suited as new Paragon feats, to be accessible by *everyone* instead of just the rich); so IMO stuff like bonus APR, boosting of critical-hit stats or bonus AC (just a handful of suggestions from the other thread) might be a bit over the top. |
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), it's really a huge power boost and the lack of it (or similar proposed rogue one) would be a huge turnoff, worse than comparing a open race no arti caster to a bur one in my book.
