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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 16, 2016 22:17:12 GMT
Thanks for all the ideas! Standout stuff so far is Rapier Wit mage, Threader, Slinger, and Herald. For now, I'm going with melee Theurge, but I may come back to these ideas. Thank you for mentioning the despawn timer - I remembered something was done about the despawn but I wasn't sure and didn't want to count on it. Yep, I know all this. MoC - Destruction, IGMS, bugs. AC too high to hit with Evards and BB. Zerya - Hallway outside allows free rest, vulnerable to Bigby 9, IGMS, destruct. Angus - Gift of Undeath, decent AC/resists, and Storm of Vengeance. (He hates electricity.) Hel - Bugs work for her iirc. Silence completely wrecks her entire party. Deadpool - Have to rely on bugs and plink damage. Wastal - Hates cold. Frost Weapon all day long. Immortal - Bugs, FoD, Destruct. I've seen bugs alone wreck him before. There's a strong reason Plant domain is core to this build. Death of Magic is super nice if you can afford it, maybe pickpocket could work too? I don't know his DC. It's looking like I'll have some extra points so I might as well try. I will likely be trying a first draft run of this sometime tomorrow, or otherwise relatively soon - if you want to watch, make more suggestions, tell me how much I'm doing it wrong, etc., you can find me at twitch.tv/johannhowitzer. Not to reiterate a point that has been made over and over again, but Staffmaster. None of that weaksauce splash nonsense. Go pure Staffmaster. Kind of a late bloomer, but smashes any of the later Pre-LL tags.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 16, 2016 23:05:43 GMT
Not to reiterate a point that has been made over and over again, but Staffmaster. None of that weaksauce splash nonsense. Go pure Staffmaster. Kind of a late bloomer, but smashes any of the later Pre-LL tags. 70% concealment at CL 40 (missing 5% for every 5 levels before) Only get magic (exotic) damage at 35 (threader gets at 34 BUT can use cleric spells for earlier needs) Pitiful ac Weak saves It isn't as good as it gets at higher levels. Op's objecive isn't late, but early. --------- If you can look at the SR of those tag bosses and check if a sorc can make due with just Mord's SR debuff.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Mar 17, 2016 2:15:01 GMT
Well, I'm not going straight Cleric if I can help it, as it's super slow in the early game compared to Wizard. Wizard has just too many tools to blitz the first 10-15 levels. Divine Theurge is still on the table for IOF, not sure about Intuitive Attack, Wisdom for DC would be nice, but in the endgame that might hurt my damage, we'll see. I haven't ruled it out.
Right now I'm getting a basic route thrown together so I go in with a plan on my first run-through. I'll save specifics like what fixed drops to pick up, when to buy shop items, how much gold to pick up during each excursion, when to spend time grinding a couple levels, etc. until I have a solid idea about the build and precise tactics for each boss. Hopefully will do the first 30 or so levels tomorrow, not sure how much time I'll have.
Regarding staffmaster, the defenses are the main problem. Late Pre-LL tags are only one piece of the puzzle, this needs to be able to stand up to the Immortal and Lolth. Lolth would destroy a Staffmaster in seconds - if not with her claws, with her Implosions and Ruins. Silence is... kinnnnnnnd of an important feature of this build.
SR is not going to be a serious concern, even MOAD and Lolth can be reached by a Sorc. Theurge gets a nice +1 SP, although I will of course be splashing. I think my first attempt at this is going to feature a balanced theurge with both sets of level 9 spells, and I'll switch to epic spells later if I feel like it's needed. IOF is really tempting though.
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Post by Torin on Mar 17, 2016 6:06:06 GMT
Ruins, implosions etc...go in GS and cast a BBoD.
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Post by simpetar on Mar 17, 2016 6:43:06 GMT
Death of Magic is super nice if you can afford it, maybe pickpocket could work too? I don't know his DC. It's looking like I'll have some extra points so I might as well try. His potions can no longer be PPed and his rezzes couterspelled, because it was too cheesy. Only DoM works and you should better have pretty good timing. EDIT: That said, PP will help you with killing a number of previous tag bosses. Nearly every humanoid has one or more, most drows, Angus or Shadow Pontiff (7-8 pots, an absurd number) to give an example.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Mar 17, 2016 20:03:21 GMT
Stream is up now at twitch.tv/johannhowitzer.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Mar 18, 2016 0:40:11 GMT
First stream was a grand success. A little rocky at first due to managing money, but I think I have an idea how the first 10 or so levels are going to go. ...And it appears to be faster than I could ever have dreamed.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Mar 25, 2016 8:27:34 GMT
Here's the general route I'm going with so far, welcoming ideas for improvements.
-------------------- Pick up starter quests Buy Summon 6, five speed potions, one bull strength, quest items from town, level to Wizard 3, take Invis and Shock Weapon Familiar out, invis, enter Cellar, gather rats and Burning Hands them, get lever and items from barrel
Dismiss familiar, go to Wilderness, invis before Quickling, summon tiger, haste and bull strength it Tiger kills orcs in Wilderness and cave, including chief, get chief drops and fixed drop belts Take tiger to arctic until 7000 xp, turn in all quests, getting level 6, take 3 levels of Cleric
Sell quest rewards except speed pack, buy summon 6, teleport gem, buy two Child Wizard's Band Rest at cemetery gate, invis to raven, invis to ratcatcher, kill it with familiar, Magic Missile, Sound Burst Invis to locket, teleport out
Set up buff spells for tiger, rest by west town gate, invis to Wilderness, summon tiger and buff it, kill orcs through Boat Ramp Turn in enough quests for level 8, take Cleric 5, prep spells for self buff including three weapon buff types, and prep one Identify in last L1 slot Buy Bone Phoenix, Phalanx Armor, and Large Shield +1, put armor and all spells on quickslots, rest at north gate Invis with armor and shield off to ring in spider cave, pop loot and re-invis (risky), identify ring Invis to goblin gate key, re-invis to Rift Canyon, rest Buff up, equip ring, kill all Dead Warriors --------------------
Note that this run-down of the opening route is very abbreviated for readability. I have much more detailed notes for myself. I'm currently working on parsing shop items to determine which have any chance to be useful down the road. Not sure yet whether to take Martial or Exotic Weapon feats, but there are a few nice weapons in the shops, like the Elemental Kama, the Amazing Feat (ambidex/TWF), the Magnificent Prismatic Blade, Greater Elemental Greatsword, just to name a few.
The build so far is as follows:
Human, PT - Air Genasi STR 14 DEX 8 CON 12 INT 16 (18) WIS 16 (14) CHA 8 (6)
Wisdom at 4, 8, 12, 16, rest Strength
Max Concentration, Disable Trap, Open Lock, Search, and 40 Tumble. OL/DT/Search will come down as I discover how high they need to be. One more skill is available, and I have some options for that, such as Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Lore, Heal (for inflicts), some crossclass Appraise for money management, Pick Pocket, or UMD. So far, shops are not yielding much of note that would give a reason for UMD, but fixed drops from enemies or loot spots might. Gift of Undeath will be worn by being an Evil Cleric.
Levels: 1-3 Wizard 4-12 Cleric, get Divine Power at level 10 (Plant and War Domains, might switch War out later) 13-18 Wizard, becomes Theurge 19 Rogue, dump in OL/DT/Search/Tumble 20-23 Cleric for Harm and bugs, not much useful for now at spells 8-9 24-31 Wizard for bigbies before dwagons 32 Rogue for skill dump AND EVASION before dwagons 33-34 Cleric level 8 spells 35 Wizard gets another 9 slot 36-37 Cleric level 9 spells (mostly empowered bug slots) 38-39 Wizard slots 40 Rogue final dump, might move this as early as 37 if the AC is more important than bugs Total Wizard 20 (fourth bonus feat) / Cleric 17 / Rogue 3
Feats currently taking: 3 - Epic Illusion Still Spell Extend Spell (not Silent as planned before, will have Vocalize for refreshing Divine Power) 3 - Spell Pen for destructs / IGMS / hands / etc 3 - Epic Enchant for GMW (could do Trans instead if Cleric 25 for IOF / Barkskin) 2 - Possible EWF in something, not sure what yet 3 - Autostill 2 feats left
I haven't really looked at how many feats can be epic yet, that will be affected a bit by when the Wizard levels show up and their bonus feats. Here are other feat options I'm considering:
Martial / Exotic Weapons Epic or even basic save feats, especially Reflex Armor Skin Prowess
I don't think this will have room for Toughness. Conjuration would be super nice for hands, orb spells, and possibly summons. Cleric 25 would give up bigby 9, Mord, and BBOD for possible IOF, I don't think I like that idea so far. Wizard 25 would give up some empowered bug slots and Word of Faith, in exchange for Starfire, Ensnare Denizen, and possibly Bigby Swarm. Cleric 25 gives up two Wizard bonus feats for one Cleric bonus feat, while Wizard 25 just gains one bonus feat. Balanced approach seen here gives up all epic spells and one potential bonus feat to get both Wizard Nines and lots of empowered bugs. I will continue doing this route testing with Balanced Theurge, though Arcane Theurge is looking potentially rather delicious. Performance of empowered bugs will be a large factor in making this decision.
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Post by sabregirl on Mar 25, 2016 12:49:46 GMT
Sounds pretty good. I assume your final run will be permanently posted somewhere so it can be used to help new players find quests/tags?
-S
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Post by johannhowitzer on Mar 25, 2016 17:52:29 GMT
Yes, it will be on my YouTube channel. We're a long way from that, though - I mean, I'm still working on the first ten levels, and the further I get, the longer it's going to take since I have to make a new character each time instead of working from a set of save files like I do in other games.
Also, one decent reason I thought of for maintaining 17 Cleric levels - Mass Heal. Useful for many areas, like the Blood Moors, the Morgue, and even the Hall of Kings. And I also just noticed my INT and WIS stop at 18... which means I have to sacrifice 2 STR to get both to 19. Woops!
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Post by johannhowitzer on Mar 25, 2016 20:35:48 GMT
Right. Well, I was finally able to verify that the wilderness respawn is fast enough for the route I had hoped to be able to use... was trying to yesterday but what with all the bloody crashes I usually got about halfway to the second wilderness trip and stopped moving. Now it seems I'm going to have to wait until later in the week what with all the bloody bonus xp screwing with my metrics. *flips table*
Seems this weekend is the Parse Shop Items And Fixed Drops Chapter.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Mar 26, 2016 7:40:54 GMT
Build has dramatically changed in its level order as it turns out Autostill on a Theurge is pretty awkward. So here's the current level / feat order, again feel free to suggest changes.
1 Wizard, Still Spell and Extend Spell - spells will be cast under Silence using Vocalize 2 Wizard 3 Wizard, Exotic Weapons - it turns out there are many interesting exotic shop weapons and few martial ones 4 Cleric 5 Cleric 6 Cleric, SF Enchantment 7 Cleric - Darkfire and Frost Weapon in time for Rift Canyon 8 Cleric 9 Cleric, GSF Enchantment 10 Cleric - gets Divine Power and GMW which will already be +4 thanks to focus 11 Wizard 12 Wizard(5), Spell Pen and SF Illusion - these Wizard levels are early to get more convenient GMW and free Haste 13 Cleric 14 Cleric 15 Wizard, GSF Illusion 16 Wizard - gets Phantasmal Killer, has GSF for it and base 18 INT! 17 Wizard 18 Wizard, Empower Spell - Become a THEURGE, CL goes from 9 to 17 19 Rogue 1, skill dump 20 Cleric 21 Cleric, [Unused Feat] - Harm and Heal unfortunately can't show up by the Bandit Chief unless skipping over Rogue until 22. Ghostly Visage can become 1-round ethereal now. 22 Wizard(10), Greater Spell Pen 23 Wizard - gets Forceful Hand 24 Wizard, [Unused Feat] 25 Wizard - gets Grasping Hand just in time for Spawn of Uroboros 26 Wizard 27 Wizard(15), [Unused Feat] and Epic Spell Pen 28 Wizard 29 Wizard - Level 9 spells. Will level across this threshold a few times to scribe more level 9 spells and learn a bunch right away, as there's too much that's useful. This level also unlocks Epic Spell Focus and Autostill feats. 30 Cleric, Automatic Still Spell I - if this can't be selected on a Cleric level yet, can switch 29 and 30. Requires 27 Spellcraft. 31 Cleric - gets Creeping Doom, sadly too late for Mother of Corn, but in time for 32 dragons 32 Rogue 2 - just in time to dump some sweet Tumble on those dragons 33 Cleric, Automatic Still Spell II 34 Cleric 35 Cleric 36 Cleric, Automatic Still Spell III - just misses getting third rack of Destructions for 35 bosses. 37 Wizard 38 Wizard 39 Wizard(20), ESF Enchantment, ESF Illusion 40 Rogue, final skill dump
The final Rogue level can be switched earlier without delaying ESF Ench/Illus to any meaningful degree, the only downside is missing a couple Wizard level 9 slots around Axilar, and having a slightly lower cap on OL/DT/Search ranks. Benefit is more tumble AC for Shrike Mother and Black Dragon Knight.
Three feat slots are not spoken for yet - these can be filled with WF/EWF, SF/GSF Conjuration, Prowess, save feats (I'll have Evasion but poor Reflexes), Armor Skin, and if I end up deciding to go with high Wisdom, I could take Intuitive Attack. Zen Archery is also a possibility with or without high Wisdom as there's a +15 shortbow in the shops, and there are also arrows with decent exotic damage dice.
For weapon type, Bastard Sword and Kama stand out pretty strongly so far, hence the exotic proficiency! There are shop items with Ambi/TWF and thus I could dual wield, even dual wield bastard swords against something very low AC - which could be really fun. I'm getting more and more excited about this build.
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Post by Acaos on Mar 26, 2016 19:57:43 GMT
Right. Well, I was finally able to verify that the wilderness respawn is fast enough for the route I had hoped to be able to use... was trying to yesterday but what with all the bloody crashes I usually got about halfway to the second wilderness trip and stopped moving. Now it seems I'm going to have to wait until later in the week what with all the bloody bonus xp screwing with my metrics. *flips table* Seems this weekend is the Parse Shop Items And Fixed Drops Chapter. If you manage to catch Sabregirl online (as she knows the holy invocation to do so) and she has time and no one else is using it, you could possibly ask her to reset the RP server (119) with Bonus XP turned off. Acaos
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Post by johannhowitzer on Mar 26, 2016 20:58:32 GMT
Haha, thanks Acaos... I've always had a strict policy related to speedrunning, though: never ask a dev for favors. I'm not very good at jokes; my activities have been tailored around the bonus XP and it's been really productive. I got my build hammered out a lot better, finished parsing all the shop items, and today I plan to use the extra XP to start testing the build against bosses.
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Post by johannhowitzer on Mar 27, 2016 18:18:25 GMT
I would like to mention that this is, far and away, the most complex route I've ever had to design. And I routed Final Fantasy X - Nemesis category, which is essentially an RPG 100% speedrun. I'm getting a little overwhelmed by the options I have and I'm barely past level 10... it's a huge mercy that I've played this game for so long in the past that I know it intimately, so research is in-depth but still far, FAR less than it would otherwise need to be.
- The build has a myriad of possibilities, rather than most RPGs which at the most let you pick a few classes or characters to include and offer you a handful of paths for each. Even after the build is done, when to take everything is still a consideration.
- I have to account for which items to buy when, on a very limited budget with most items costing an arm and a leg, and on top of that, there's randomness in shop prices with Appraise rolls. Gold income is also not a guarantee, especially during a real run when I can actually try for random drops in places to make things not so tight. One really nice feature is going to be the Abandoned Farm's mobs dropping very reliable amounts of gold.
- Enemies don't just have max HP, melee damage range, a few spells with damage ranges or status effects, some immunities, a speed value, and some elemental resistances. Here I also have to contend with attack bonus, armor class, saving throws, invisible resist amounts, enemy skill checks, touch attacks, etc.
- The build I've chosen - which genuinely does so far seem to be the fastest way to do this - already has a crazy number of spells and abilities, at level 10. Even just for damage spells I've taken to making graphs at each important level with the possible damage output curve of each available spell overlaid. And this is actually going to be necessary in places, since I have such limited spellslots.
- Experience gains for enemies decreases as you level up, and to a limit, quest gains INCREASE as you level up. This forces a lot of testing and min/maxing to get the most out of both XP types. Just for the first tiger trip into the Wilderness and the first set of quests, I experimented with around 6-7 possible experience routes. Even the order in which you turn in the quests is important, to avoid running into caps from some quests.
- Equipment is incredibly complicated. Level requirements, class and alignment requirements, Use Magic Device, weapons have damage types with an amount of dice, two possible proficiency requirements relevant to this build, while other gear has a handful of AC types, resistances, save bonuses, ability bonuses, auxiliary immunities, spell immunities, many items have on-use spell effects... compare that to your average Final Fantasy which has attack/defense power, some elemental affinity, maybe a status immunity, and that's it.
Of course you all know this already. I just wanted to gush for a bit about how much fun this problem is to solve. It's candy to my borderline OCD brain. If you could see how many spreadsheets and graphs I already have at this point...
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