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Post by woqued on Mar 18, 2016 22:08:07 GMT
1. Item statistics Base Item: Armor (BAC 4) Armor Bonus: 18 Armor AC Skill Bonus: Lore +20 Skill Bonus: Concentration +20 Sorc Slots: 777 888 999 Damage Immunity: Bludgeoning 24% Damage Immunity: Piercing 24% Damage Immunity: Slashing 24% Damage Reduction: Slashing 25/- Damage Reduction: Bludgeoning 25/- Damage Reduction: Piercing 25/- Enhancement Bonus: Constitution +14 (Scaling to infinity) Improved Saving Throws: Spells +12
Improved Saving Throws: Universal +8 Imporved Saving Throws: Death +10 Regeneration: +10 Immunity: Confusion // too much? Immunity: Fear Immunity: Mind Affecting Spells Causes Undermaster: Red Dragon to Banish creatures in a Huge radius around the Pariah instead of the Balagarns Iron Horn effect. //Too strong Supportive alternative: Causes Undermaster: Red Dragon to cast Upthrust - picking up all targets in a Huge radius around the Pariah, as well as granting them 1 round of KD immunity. You must be an Accursed Pariah to use this item. 2. Intended power level (55-60, or paragon) Paragon 3. The build it is intended for Pariah. 4. The item currently used that it would replace [except in the case of usables and items that don't occupy inventory slots] This: Scales of Dragonborn which is quite weak compared to randomized BUR or Wrap of Fistandalius (robe). Pariah do not have nice alternatives besides This which arguably would be too strong for Pariah because it would be too fitting for them. I currently wear Unholy Suffering on my pariah with some 80% elec added and upward randomize. The net result of this item on pariah would be: significant hit to defenses, but provides some really cool Utility, slots, that tasty Lore - and most importantly, a set item for a quasi that doesn't have one yet.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2016 22:10:08 GMT
What DC would the Banishment reach for a maxed Pariah?
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Post by woqued on Mar 18, 2016 22:22:59 GMT
DC = 10 + spell level + Constitution Modifier + feat modifier ->
10 + Spell Level (9) + Con Mod (37 at 80 on a 20/20 build with +16 from gear) + feat PSF for +10 + 1 from Pariah transmutation bonus ------> 67 DC at 80 + potential 1 from ego.
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Post by woqued on Mar 21, 2016 23:18:07 GMT
Bump! Any pariah players with any input? In light of recent update maybe? Or non pariah players? D:
I think it's cool; a pariah with this armor will be extremely proficient banisher, but I don't think it'd be too op - considering it will force to drain 9s with banish, and it's not like Unname which can affect boss spawns.. Comments?
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Post by Lil' Mikey (Msowby2) on Mar 21, 2016 23:43:12 GMT
I really like it Woki
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2016 23:59:39 GMT
Thought about it a little more, definitely fair concept (considering recent nerfs), but I still think the DC is a tad high. IMO reduce the DC by 2-4 points to bring it more closely in line with other focused Banishers.
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Post by woqued on Mar 22, 2016 1:16:07 GMT
Thought about it a little more, definitely fair concept (considering recent nerfs), but I still think the DC is a tad high. IMO reduce the DC by 2-4 points to bring it more closely in line with other focused Banishers. I liked the idea of changing the lvl 9 spell Undermaster to be a better pick as well as easening up level 7 spell selection; but then again, could just change the armor to make Banishment work as a transmutation spell. Alternatively, could put a hand-crafted DC limitation on it. Either way, comparing the "banishment works as trans spell" and "undermaster can cast banish" alternatives: Banish as trans: Pariah perspective: - 2 less DC + Easier spell management - can use 7 8 or 9 for Banish, not just 9 Balance perspective: +- Undermaster is a weaker spell choice +- Less spell selection freedom at level 7 Both options are strong gains from a Set item, providing something relatively new in the game; high SP banishment - which would make this desirable but for many Pariahs probably not necessary (consider, banish has 0 use in Hells, 0 use in most LL areas, quite strong in Elysium / Limbo - not very important but still useful in Aboleths/Abyss (because regular banish is workable in Abyss/Aboleths/Elysium/Limbo - this would just make it better.)) I liked the idea of a set item freeing up options, without making it -too- strong or allow for too much versatility to a quasi. This would do that, I think.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 2:34:50 GMT
Consider the 'Banishment = Transmutation' option, I believe for a typical Pariah build this effectively equates to around +9 DC for Banishment? Other Paragon sets with foci feats seem to be around the ESF level, so +4 DC to the whole school (assuming you have SF already from Staff). So I think a total boost to Banish DC of around +7 is reasonable, +9 (or +11 for Undermaster option) seems over the top. I do like the flavour of the Undermaster option a lot more, so Undermaster Banish with -4 DC is okay to my eye; 63 DC without an Ego, which is the same as an Abj-Sorc with Ego, or a Div-Druid without Stolen Lifeforce active. Just explaining my logic for thinking -4 DC is a fair number
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Post by woqued on Mar 22, 2016 12:25:42 GMT
Pariah has lesser options to do stuff so the quasi is made to have higher DC in exchange, not similar DC to the focused other casters. Banishment is not the only ABJ spell and Unname is not the only DIV spell, nor does this set item help with any other spells from that specific school unlike the ESF granting paragon alternatives for other classes.
The biggest potential balance issue is the high SP banishment vs summoned beings, where the usual hard part is to drop SR after they have been summoned; Pariah may be able to work around it after attaining this item, at least for some of them (Elysium devas come to mind). Limbo mobs will likely still be out of reach, and the Paragon variants in Abyss will still need to be SR dropped and drained even for a Pariah with this item. Aboleth fumes would be easy to deal with, but for a solo arcane in Aboleths Pariah is not the best choice no matter how you cook it even after attaining this paragon item (at least not a 20/20 one).
That being said I appreciate the discussion, thanks for that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 13:34:44 GMT
Ya no worries, always good discussion ^^
I agree with your points overall in terms of what is 'balanced' for Pariah. I just feel that at present, this item is "re-balance a class by adding a super-item" - though it's debatable whether this is such a bad thing or not. I say 'super-item' because AFAIK no other item in the game gets *remotely* close to adding +11 DC to a single spell-effect.
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Post by woqued on Mar 22, 2016 15:27:21 GMT
Alright. Let's accept it's a bit much. How should it be changed? I think it's really cool function to change (upgrade in this case) the Pariah special spell, but considering this might be too much - since the base item is good. How to change? I'm not sure if toning down DC would be feasible way, though that'd work out. Or just tone down the base item?
Some potential ideas for a similar concept (could extend to other casters easily):
Cool offensive effects: (i realize these aren't very Stone-y for a Stoneguy) Banishment Greater Dispel Prayer-like effect? AoE Harm Stone-induced Rooting on all opponents akin to Stonehold? Adding a stunning effect to Earthquake / RG
Cool defensive effects: Aoe Clarity (perhaps cooler effect in an item wearable by all casters capable of using Clarity - maybe a separate item suggestion?) Spell-induced forceful Pickup
Edit: more op variants that'd fit the stone theme: Physical infliction Pushback effect (i think mob location changes are possible to implement based on Gnomish Inventor being able to pull mobs together) Pull-in vacuum effect (similar to GI)
Something else?
Edit2 for clarification: I think Pariah is a strong quasi - not trying to fix a "broken favourite class" with this item (while it is my favourite toon). Just trying to come up with coolest possible set for them to the best of my ability!
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Post by Raj on Mar 22, 2016 15:45:01 GMT
I like the base item. The original proposed power is indeed balance breaking An aoe-pickup effect for allies would mesh very well with the gust effect for enemies; I'd go on and give allies a 1 round KD immunity too to make it worthwhile even for single targets or when you don't know if a party mate is coming to the rescue as well. Alternatively, pulling enemies toward you is also a fitting ability, but if it could be coded I'd see it good even applied on the base spell for everybody.
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Post by woqued on Mar 22, 2016 16:04:41 GMT
I like the base item. The original proposed power is indeed balance breaking An aoe-pickup effect for allies would mesh very well with the gust effect for enemies; I'd go on and give allies a 1 round KD immunity too to make it worthwhile even for single targets or when you don't know if a party mate is coming to the rescue as well. Alternatively, pulling enemies toward you is also a fitting ability, but if it could be coded I'd see it good even applied on the base spell for everybody. Will add the KD immunity to it, after all Pariah can't sustain the slots to spam lvl 9 spell for every KD mob (even with 1 rounds worth immunity) - should be fine
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 19:07:35 GMT
Yeah I really like the new version of it! AoE-pickup with Undermaster seems quite thematic too, sort of like a reverse-Reverse Gravity
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Post by Matt on Mar 22, 2016 19:46:42 GMT
I think it's a cool idea too, but doesn't seem that good in practice. As of the moment Shapechange isn't really a spell able to fit in, unless you ignore PWK/ED/Weird which i doubt. Also, im not sure how many situations you need to pickup multiple people (and you're not KD'd yourself) seems like a spam spell for KD immunity on hard check mobs. What about adding 1d8 elec or sonic damage per caster level and removing KD immunity, like the wind pushing people up causing these elements to take effect. Would free up a 6 slot instead of chain lightning and provide something more useful than just aoe pickup.
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