Thoughts: Tank Build diversity (also a splash research)

[desocupado]

I've thought about this for some time, but basically every time I look at tank's class breakdowns when going with prestige class tanks and compare it to going with pure classes I sort of miss that ability to splash 2 classes and get a cool benefit on the non prestige ones.

Of course splashes are usually about giving passive bonuses that make a class combination usable, for instance a dexter can dual wield due monk ac, a paladin splash grants saves, Fighter/Harper/Weapon Master grant dps and so on. On a rare instance there is an active component to it like PDK gives but it's usually a passive thing. Of course some classes don't give either.

Then there's also some further things we don't quite see for some time like a wizard splash to use scrolls and other stuff. Here's how it currently work: (If you can point out an additional benefit tanks get by splashing something please point it out bellow)

Class	Passive Bonus	Active Bonus	Comment
Barbarian	Movement Speed (1) Uncanny Dodge (2)	Rage (1*)	Low level rage doesn't really grants much of a benefit beyond the first levels
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Fighter	Fighter specialization tree (4*) Wheatstone (+1 every 4 levels) Bonus feats		Weapon specialization usually requires taking a level at epic levels
Monk	Wisdom AC (1) Monk weapon progression (1) AC (1 per 5 levels)
Paladin	Cha saves (1) Fear immunity (3)
Ranger	Bonus feat (1-5-10) Dual wielding feats in light armor (9)
Rogue	Allow Rogue skills (1) Evasion (2) Uncanny Dodge (3) Bonus Rogue feat (10)	Sneak attack damage - requires flanking (1)	Allowing rogue skills is more of a burden than a feature for tanks
Sorcerer	True Strike Spell (1*) Cast Arcane scrolls (1)		True Strike has an use due granting magic ab +20 - but it usually isn't useful due other buffs getting you to the cap
Wizard	True Strike Spell (1*) Cast Arcane scrolls (1)
Arcane Archer	Can use A.A. bow Bow damage and ab (1 every odd level)
Assassin	True Strike Spell (X*) Uncanny dodge (2)	Use poison (1) Death attack	A decent CL True strike does help with more AB bonus to disarm. Death attack can paralyze if target is outside combat AND fail a test (DC 10 + int + assassin level)
Blackguard	Charisma Saves (2)	Use Poison (1) Sneak attack
Champion of Torm	Bonus Feats (every 2 levels)
Dwarven Defender	Limited Shield AC dualwielding axes (1) Defensive awareness 1 (2) Defensive awareness 2 (5)
Pale Master	Bonus AC (1/5/9... ?) Critical Immunity (20)		On vanilla NWN it did grant critical immunity at 10
Red Dragon Disciple	Stat Bonuses		On vanilla NWN it's a good tank splash due great stats
Shadowdancer	Evasion and Uncanny Dodge (2) Slippery mind (7) HiPS and Improved Evasion (10)		No one ever splashed it.
Shifter	None		Can't be normally splashed - Niche builds include the con based Druid or Ranger
Weapon Master	Extra Critical multiplier (5) Extra critical threat (7)
Harper Scout	Boots of Wanderer (5) 2 Bonus feats Allows PP and UMD as cross class skill
Purple Dragon Knight		Several active Skills

What I would like to conceptualize here is making a philosophy change - tanks won't really get any benefits from getting more than 30 levels on a single class (maybe feats) but they would get benefits from having 3, 5 or 7 levels when splashing another class - effectively forcing all tanks splash twice (tough in several class and level combinations).
This could be taken up to eleven if tank classes granted all features at 15 or 20 (this is probably way too much). The numbers 3, 5 and 7 would probably revert the splash ease of base classes x prestige classes tough (tough prestige classes would get more epic bonus feat as CC).

This does sound odd and won't be balanced, at first, but could end up making tanks quite diverse - at very least we can come up with some reworks/adjustments to make more classes a splash option.

(New) Active abilities could be made from either the own class, some customized feature or even guttering a quasi classes for features (slingers, chanters, GI, lash, staff masters come to mind) or even concepts from older threads like "epic for all".

Some current class features could scale with character levels instead of class levels to make them splash-able if needed they could grant an additional bonus if CC is the original owner - let's say a cot's divine wrath is shared with cot 5 splash - a non CoT CC would get up to 25/+16 soak while a cot gets 40/+16 (this isn't the best example due pointing out a passive skill)


Next steps:
1 - Complete the splash benefit table
2 - Categorize Passive Benefits
3 - Look at active abilities (or gameplay changing passive abilities)
4 - Create a table with suggested splash benefits for each class on levels 3-5-7

[versengeteriks]

Shadowdancer was a great splash to get HIPS when it was at a much lower level. So much so that it was almost an essential splash for lower level chars to splash it and then spam HIPS constantly pre lvl 20. At 10 it makes it more like a control only class option. The only down side is that now there's so any other ways to go invisible its not worth putting 10 levels into SD. In which case you are probably making the SD for Shadow Evade anyway.

I kind of like where you are going with this Idea though, because it will Increase build options across the board.

My only real opposition to it is that splashing a class should only ever give a lesser version of the Splash classes abilities. Which is what currently happens. If Splash classes are given some kind of "Extra" benefit. Some classes may find themselves being purely splash. With pure builds being made even rarer.

I'll have a think and try to brainstorm a few random ideas for benefits/abilities. Personally I've always preferred scaling abilities when it comes to class creation, rather than a Flat bonus. That way a splash of any class will only ever provide a "touch" of that class.

The SD HIPS move from lower to higher levels is good example of making a major class feature only available to purer builds. I kind of like it that way. I'd almost be inclined to raise the required levels even higher with some of the splash benefits you mark out in your table to encourage pure builds.

If it would be possible to safeguard purebuilds while encouraging Splash for others that would be great. But I think it would need to be a Splash only benefit. Not a purebuild benefit. That would alter the way a control class worked.

Something as simple as splash classes leaving permanent access to the splash classes Feat or Skill lists. Even when taking other class levels. A little like how splashing allows permanent access to class restricted equipment.

'trix

[simpetar]

Mar 24, 2016 9:14:35 GMT versengeteriks said:

Shadowdancer was a great splash to get HIPS when it was at a much lower level. So much so that it was almost an essential splash for lower level chars to splash it and then spam HIPS constantly pre lvl 20. At 10 it makes it more like a control only class option. The only down side is that now there's so any other ways to go invisible its not worth putting 10 levels into SD. In which case you are probably making the SD for Shadow Evade anyway.

I kind of like where you are going with this Idea though, because it will Increase build options across the board.

My only real opposition to it is that splashing a class should only ever give a lesser version of the Splash classes abilities. Which is what currently happens. If Splash classes are given some kind of "Extra" benefit. Some classes may find themselves being purely splash. With pure builds being made even rarer.

I'll have a think and try to brainstorm a few random ideas for benefits/abilities. Personally I've always preferred scaling abilities when it comes to class creation, rather than a Flat bonus. That way a splash of any class will only ever provide a "touch" of that class.

The SD HIPS move from lower to higher levels is good example of making a major class feature only available to purer builds. I kind of like it that way. I'd almost be inclined to raise the required levels even higher with some of the splash benefits you mark out in your table to encourage pure builds.

If it would be possible to safeguard purebuilds while encouraging Splash for others that would be great. But I think it would need to be a Splash only benefit. Not a purebuild benefit. That would alter the way a control class worked.

Something as simple as splash classes leaving permanent access to the splash classes Feat or Skill lists. Even when taking other class levels. A little like how splashing allows permanent access to class restricted equipment.

'trix

At first glance, OP. At second glance, OP and throwing builds way out of balance. There is a reason why you get more powerful abilities with more class levels. Giving any build access to the full toolkit of the splashed class (even weaker version) seems to me like giving a 7 years old kid your car keys and saying "Stop on red, go on green, go have some fun". This is the essence of splashing, you sacrifice being pure and get more worth than the cost: but "more" and "everything" are two very different things.

If you really want to use other class' ordinary gear, you will make sure you have UMD. But for the trully restricted, that which says "You must have X levels in Y class in order to use this item" or "You must be of Z alignment to use this item", you just need to meet the requirements, there is no way around it.

[versengeteriks]

confused here? did you mean to quote my post?
i'm adamantly against handing over whole class abilities?
I'd even go so far as moving many 1st level abilities to 2nd or even 3rd level to discourage splash abuse:

The SD HIPS move from lower to higher levels is good example of making a major class feature only available to purer builds. I kind of like it that way. I'd almost be inclined to raise the required levels even higher with some of the splash benefits you mark out in your table to encourage pure builds.

Class Abilities in my view should be kept specific to the class to encourage pure builds.

My idea (not a suggestion) is to do something akin to a class affinity. A hint or touch or the Splash class. It should allow the character some understanding about what it is like to BE the splash class, without giving them the full powers that a pure member (of that splash class) spent years studying.

Example: As a Martial artist my understanding of MA comes mainly from an external Chinese background. But when i study other Martial arts like Akido i take away things that will help improve or tweak my ORIGINAL style. I dont turn into an Akido master. But i might use their tactics, way of movement. Or more normally just see an alternate use for something I already knew.

With that in mind, I would like to see desocupado ideas put into action as more of a flavouring exercise. For those Taking monk to be a little more Esoteric. For those taking Barbarian to be a little more gruff and violent. For those taking Rogue to be a bit more underhand. Paladin splash a little more Pious.

When it boils down to numbers and facts its a little more difficult for me to put it into a fixed idea.

I actually thought Allowing permanent access to the Splash class Feats and skill list was a little Underpowered an idea. Even this would encourage more people to Splash Early. Instead of the usual lvl 20 or 40. Since the Skill benefits and feat options would be more beneficial from an early career point.

It would reduce need for skill affinity bonus' currently in place I know. But balance would always be my preference over and above a grand scheme.

I still think for desocupado Idea to work it would need more of a New Ability to be invented or some such. Rather than my weak suggestion.

'trix

[desocupado]

There is a lot of ways to go over this idea. One obvious way to balance a power dump is to remove some redundant class feature from a base class and move it into a splash one. So, just as an example, if you wanted concealment you'd need a SD 5 splash - even on monks or rogues.

But my first idea was focusing on benefits for 3, 5 or 7 levels to keep builds somewhat similar to current ones.

Here's an example sketch for a few classes (TL = total level i.e. character level)

Class	Level 3 Feature	Level 5 Feature	Level 7 feature	Control Class feature
Ranger	Improved Two handed weapon fighting in light armor	Bow Proficiency (any weapon feats also affects short/long bows) Animal companion/summon (decent stats scale of TL)	A mix of some GI/Slinger ranged attack features	Spell book Wisdom AC Called shot
SD	Shadow Step Evasion	Shadow Evade (Concealment) Extra movement speed	Summon Shadow (cloning the character's  ab/ac and weapon damage) Slippery Mind	Extra attack Negative Buff Shadow Daze
DwD	Taunt aura Defensive Awareness II (earlier)	Str mod/2 % Phy Reduction Defensive weave (Physical Kickback)	Critical Immunity Stat Bonus: Constitution +4	Natural Ac Axe shield (need a buff for CC) Full Str mod % imm
Rogue	Stat bonus: Dexterity +2 Evasion May pick Rogue Skills as Class skills at LL	Some GI bombs Stat bonus:  Dexterity +2 1 extra skill per level (gained at LL)	Sneak Attack Imm bypass 1 extra skill per level (gained at LL)	Strongest Sneak attack Unique Rogue feats

This was just an example but I tried to get to materialize the concept.
The idea can be changed to different level spreads like 3 5 10 too.


The possibility of class editions would have established first for stuff like:

1. Possibility of moving feats around (like DwD Defensive Awareness in this example)
   
2. Possibility of changing LL skill list (rogues in this example)
   
3. Possibility of putting/removing/changing a maximum level for classes
   
4. Possibility of granting a bonus feat on level up (akin to fighter's) at specific levels
5. Possibility of changing BAB or altering race restrictions
6. Possibility of changing epic bonus feat acquisition rate
   

I would go as far as to suggest to make all prestige classes have a 7 level limit while tank's bases classes are limited to 30 to enforce diversity (in which case base classes could have an additional feature at 10). Another way to go would be allow a 20 level limit for base classes and 10 level for prestige (removing their epic levels)

In a similar vein, some caster's lower level spells (III-V) unlocked at level 10 at most could probably be changed to be usable for tank builds (CL/effects based on total character level or changed if the character has enough non-caster levels).