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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2016 6:02:58 GMT
Edit: Changing my suggestion to the one further down in the thread.
Intended Power Level: Paragon Item Type: Usable Item Paragon item that upgrades your Rest Ring to consume 1d2 charges instead of 1d3 while in Limbo. 1d3 Charges/Rest:Best case = 10 rests Average case = 5 rests Worst case = 4 rests 1d2 Charges/Rest:Best case = 10 rests Average case = 7 rests Worst case = 5 rests Has a similar effect of increasing the number of rests by +1 in the worst-case scenario of unlucky rolls. It gives a further +1 rest on average, but this is cancelled out by not being able to be used mid-combat for insta-rest cheese AND having no effect outside of Limbo (the main area the extra rest is 'needed'). This item instantly restores its user as if they had rested, once per reset. Using this item permanently binds it to the user, preventing it from being transferred to another. Using a second copy of this item during the same reset has no effect. Basically an upgrade of the Level 55-60 item, The Fine Print, but this one doesn't need to be equipped - faster and easier to use. It is equivalent to a non-transferable 1/day Biorejuvenator.Rests are quite variable in Limbo, the '1d3 charge' mechanic on Rest Rings means an unlucky toon can be restricted to 4 rests (worst case scenario) before having to resort to consumables. It's quite managable in Limbo P1, but very harsh in Limbo P2. Fine Print currently lifts this minimum count to 5, I suggest a Paragon Set item to increase it to 6. Don't think it's imbalanced, it's just added quality of life to save on some consumables. Remember, this is Paragon loot. Should it share the Biorejuvenator cooldown or not? Not sure, discuss!
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Post by Retribution on Mar 28, 2016 10:02:05 GMT
I like the idea. I'd say yes to the cool down to prevent cheesing epic/paragon spells with multiple casts
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Post by desocupado on Mar 28, 2016 12:13:22 GMT
I think upgrading the fine print to not require equipping it would be enough.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2016 13:43:24 GMT
I think upgrading the fine print to not require equipping it would be enough. You have missed the point. Fine Print is a great item and is perfectly usable the way it is. The idea here is to have a SECOND source of non-consumable rest; as I explained in the original post, this would be particularly useful in Limbo P2. Upgrading the Fine Print the way you suggest does not address this at all. The fact that the Paragon version wouldn't need to be equipped is really quite minor and just saves a little bit of time/effort mid-combat. Small quality of life boost is reasonable considering it's supposed to be a tier up from Level 55-60 gear (ie: Fine Print).
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Post by Raj on Mar 28, 2016 13:52:18 GMT
Useful yes, but not really needed to basically mimic (+slight upgrade) an existing item that'd lose some uniqueness.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2016 14:03:37 GMT
Other funny/more unique idea could be a Paragon item that upgrades your Rest Ring to consume 1d2 charges instead of 1d3 while in Limbo.
1d3 Charges/Rest: Best case = 10 rests Average case = 5 rests Worst case = 4 rests
1d2 Charges/Rest: Best case = 10 rests Average case = 7 rests Worst case = 5 rests
Has a similar effect of increasing the number of rests by +1 in the worst-case scenario of unlucky rolls. It gives a further +1 rest on average, but this is cancelled out by not being able to be used mid-combat for insta-rest cheese AND having no effect outside of Limbo (the main area the extra rest is 'needed').
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Post by Raj on Mar 28, 2016 16:42:13 GMT
Dunno, the fact that the item isn't consumed is a bit strong IMO.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 28, 2016 17:43:48 GMT
The idea here is to have a SECOND source of non-consumable rest; as I explained in the original post, this would be particularly useful in Limbo P2. Upgrading the Fine Print the way you suggest does not address this at all. I would think that if you need two extra rests from usables to complete a run, that's either a problem with the run or a symptom of the run being new and more difficult and forcing you to use your rests more wisely. If it's the latter, which seems much more likely, it's a problem which will solve itself in time. If it's the former, then also something that will take some time but need to be addressed by the dev team. In either case, another rest item shouldn't be necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2016 20:49:34 GMT
Dunno, the fact that the item isn't consumed is a bit strong IMO. I see these options as more quality of life (save on Biorejuvenators) as opposed to a power boost like the Jar is; I call the Jar a power boost and not just quality of life, because at the moment most players don't use the Draught option as a consistent DC boost for general runs anyway. I would think that if you need two extra rests from usables to complete a run, that's either a problem with the run or a symptom of the run being new and more difficult and forcing you to use your rests more wisely. If it's the latter, which seems much more likely, it's a problem which will solve itself in time. If it's the former, then also something that will take some time but need to be addressed by the dev team. In either case, another rest item shouldn't be necessary. It's a symptom of the inherent variance from the d3-charge mechanic. If you roll poorly and cap out at 4 ring-rests on a core, you are NOT going to be able to contribute appropriately for 6x maps of Paragon mobs + 2x Paragon bosses without getting rests from some other source, regardless of your skill/knowledge/gearing. Whether or not there should be another option (a Paragon reward specifically) on top of Fine Print/Biorejuvenators/rest-spawning/Limbo-rests is debatable. Of these options, Fine Print is max +1 rest, and Biorejuvenators are vastly more convenient than the remaining options in terms of time/effort of the rest of your party.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 6:39:42 GMT
Other similar options, just throwing them out there:
*Usable item that targets your Rest Ring to add +1 charge to it, once per reset. -> Equates to exactly +1 non-instant rest overall, regardless of rolls. This is the 'weakest' bonus rest option available.
*Usable item that allows a player to transfer 2 (or 3?) charges from their Rest Ring to give one charge to another player. 2 uses per reset (needs to consume all three charges to activate). -> More of a teamplay/strategic option. Due to certain tanks being able to skip rests, potentially much stronger for the party overall in terms of stacking rests on cores, but in a situation where every player has this item it would probably give less extra rests total than a flat 'everyone gets +1 rest' option.
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Post by Raj on Mar 29, 2016 13:02:19 GMT
*Usable item that allows a player to transfer 2 (or 3?) charges from their Rest Ring to give one charge to another player. 2 uses per reset (needs to consume all three charges to activate).-> More of a teamplay/strategic option. Due to certain tanks being able to skip rests, potentially much stronger for the party overall in terms of stacking rests on cores, but in a situation where every player has this item it would probably give less extra rests total than a flat 'everyone gets +1 rest' option. This sort of stuff I like more. Still, having to cope with rests limitations adds some strategical depths to limbo runs, and elsewhere rests are plenty atm. Having your mates guard you while you fish for restspawns trying to wipe already gives this choice anyway.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 29, 2016 14:38:21 GMT
Giving away charges in a 2:1 ratio seems an interesting "party utility" buff for some tanks - perhaps it could be built in the ring. (or just recharge the epic/paragon spells)
Wasn't limbo a rest spawn chance area? Does anyone have an idea on the odds and mechanics behind it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 20:15:22 GMT
Yes, Limbo is indeed a rest-spawn chance area. Have not tested it thoroughly yet, but the rate of rest spawn does seem reasonably high (over 50% at least?) from the *extremely small* sample size we currently have. The rest-spawn mobs are actually quite nasty, to me it's really a last resort method.
My personal view is that using the rest-spawn method for extra rests is extremely time-consuming and costs time/effort/slots from everyone else in your party to deal with the spawns (resting/unbuffed players are less able to handle the mobs). For this reason I would rather just use a Biorejuvenator when in this situation, and I *think* most players that are able to run Limbo P2 would have a similar view.
I agree that it's nice for Limbo to limit rests because it adds a strategic component, I just think the amount of variance is gigantic: Hell = 10 rests per run Abyss = 5-6 rests per run (option to do 2x runs in a row) Limbo = 4-10 rests per run (!!)
Not saying that the variance should be straight up removed, but IMO it would be a nice/appropriate Paragon reward to be able to partially control the element of randomness - hence these suggestions.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 29, 2016 20:40:17 GMT
Crazy thought - Reduce rest ring maximum charges by 2 and make a complete map (or killing it's miniboss) recharge 1 rest.
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While we are at it - let fine print (and Perpetually Regenerating Reviver Fluid) upgrade the rest ring granting it a separate rest ability once/twice per server reset.
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