double ended weapons

[versengeteriks]

double axe
double sword
double scimitar
double mace

All have the same weapon head both sides right?

So why no double ended stats for quarterstaff? or creating an EXOTIC version that allows striking with both ends.

Its one of the most worldwide and traditional ways of stick fighting with a quarterstaff....

(Aside form overpowering Staffmasters of course........ No Agenda here except weapon equality. I don't have any staffmasters in HG, so it wouldn't affect me anyway)

'trix

[Raj]

The combat itself is very simplified in a game like NWN. Since exotic double maces already exist, this would have no pratical consequence at all.

[versengeteriks]

I guess.

And given that they all do the same Damage dice it probably not worth the effort.....

[Paradoom]

They originally granted 2 extra attacks in the offhand. This could be reactivated probably though I would not allow that for barbarians.

[simpetar]

Mar 29, 2016 17:10:32 GMT Paradoom said:

They originally granted 2 extra attacks in the offhand. This could be reactivated probably though I would not allow that for barbarians.

Yes, double weapons could be made attractive once more, they are inferior to 2h weapons in every aspect. It is quite a twist that barbs should not be allowed these extra attacks, because it was originally their specialty to keep those. Fun fact: in the very early vanilla NWN, quarterstaff was actually double weapon, 1d6/1d6, 20/x2 crits. But that was fixed almost right away.

[versengeteriks]

Mar 29, 2016 17:30:07 GMT simpetar said:

Mar 29, 2016 17:10:32 GMT Paradoom said:

They originally granted 2 extra attacks in the offhand. This could be reactivated probably though I would not allow that for barbarians.

Yes, double weapons could be made attractive once more, they are inferior to 2h weapons in every aspect. It is quite a twist that barbs should not be allowed these extra attacks, because it was originally their specialty to keep those. Fun fact: in the very early vanilla NWN, quarterstaff was actually double weapon, 1d6/1d6, 20/x2 crits. But that was fixed almost right away.

Not to batter down my own suggestion ( i cant help but see both sides)..

Would this overpower the staffmaster?

And for what reason would it need to be blocked for Barbs?

On a side note. Wrongly or not, I've always seen the whole double weapon thing as a bit of homage to Darth Maul. I always felt that they should be a WM only item or give some bonus to WMs for using them. Although WMs get no magic....

I feel a quasi class idea coming on....

'trix

[Acaos]

Good news: We've recently made a breakthrough in our engine hacks that will allow us to manipulate offhand attacks.

It's quite possible in the future that an epic feat will be added, Superior Two-Weapon Fighting, which would grant a third offhand attack (stacking with the second attack from Improved Two-Weapon Fighting). This would of course benefit both dualers and double weapon users.

Acaos

[desocupado]

It would be cool if the 3 two weapon feats family was buffed and granted third attack earlier. (like one attack for each feat and next to no penalty for main hand attacks at first - let's say:
Ambidexterity by itself makes main hand -2 and offhand -7
Two weapon fighting grants and additional offhand attack (-2 and -2/-7)
Improved two weapon mke the main hand's attack start at 0 (no penalty) with -0/-5/-10 (offhand). *

*The additional -2 for non-light weapons on offhand could also go.


Also double weapons probably deserve additional ab to make up for the lack of shield possibility and no % bonus. (One of them probably could be finesse-able regardless of size, like katanas)

I could see staves as double weapons since staffmaster no longer are allowed to wear shields (there was a nerf, wasn't there?).

[Paradoom]

I hope you can implement that feat, really nice. Though on dual-wielders feats are already tight as s... That said I hope that for tanks the amount of paragon feats you can take will be increased in the near future.

[Paradoom]

Why I want barbs excluded is simple. They are op as is and are even granted a damagboost even with these weapons. I'd really like to see these weapons become finesseable or to grant dwds some badly needed boost grant them shield ac similar like the dwdaxes.

[versengeteriks]

So Paradoom. what would you change about barbs to fix their OP issues?

Do you want to start another thread and link it here?

[Paradoom]

There are a few things I would like to see addressed regarding any tank and in detail i am working on some suggestions for dwarfs and esp. DwDs. But right now this has to wait a bit due to health reasons. I will not really go into barbs as well. One of the few go to tanks options usable for open sub beginners till top tier vets and something I see as needed. But adjusting these specific weapons shall not grant barbs again another boost when nearly all other tanks are hardly near their level.

[simpetar]

Mar 29, 2016 20:18:54 GMT Acaos said:

Good news: We've recently made a breakthrough in our engine hacks that will allow us to manipulate offhand attacks.

It's quite possible in the future that an epic feat will be added, Superior Two-Weapon Fighting, which would grant a third offhand attack (stacking with the second attack from Improved Two-Weapon Fighting). This would of course benefit both dualers and double weapon users.

Acaos

Depending on how many MH attacks (first flurry) and extra attacks (third flurry) the character has, 3rd off-hand attack might put dual wielding at par with 2h weapons - at the cost of 4 feats.

Maths
Let us assume a weapon that does 100 basica damage, which can be dual wielded or equipped as two handed. Two handed bonus is currently +40%, off-hand bonus is +50%.

1. Character has 4 base attacks:
Two handed (TH) damage is 560 per round = 4 * 100 * 1.4
Dual wielding damage with Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (STWF) damage is 550 per round = (4 * 100) + (3 * 100 * 0.5)

2. Character has 4 base attacks, plus 1 from haste:
TH damage is 700 per round = 5 * 100 * 1.4
STWF damage is 650 per round = (5 * 100) + (3 * 100 * 0.5)

3. Character has 4 base attacks plus 1 from haste plus 2 from CL 55 Tensers / Divine Power / HS boots etc.
TH damage is 980 per round = 7 * 100 * 1.4
STWF damage is 850 per round = (7 * 100) + (3 * 100 * 0.5)

The only case when dual wielding (or double weapon) can beat 2h damage is if the character had 3 attacks (say, rogue with no haste buff), and that does not occur in reality.

Suggestion

Follow up the Superior Two-Weapon Fighting feat with Superior Ambidexterity: off-hand attacks deal 100% damage, instead of 50%. That way taking all those feats will be rewarded with more damage potential.

[woqued]

May 7, 2016 14:27:45 GMT simpetar said:

Mar 29, 2016 20:18:54 GMT Acaos said:

Good news: We've recently made a breakthrough in our engine hacks that will allow us to manipulate offhand attacks.

It's quite possible in the future that an epic feat will be added, Superior Two-Weapon Fighting, which would grant a third offhand attack (stacking with the second attack from Improved Two-Weapon Fighting). This would of course benefit both dualers and double weapon users.

Acaos

Depending on how many MH attacks (first flurry) and extra attacks (third flurry) the character has, 3rd off-hand attack might put dual wielding at par with 2h weapons - at the cost of 4 feats.

Maths
Let us assume a weapon that does 100 basica damage, which can be dual wielded or equipped as two handed. Two handed bonus is currently +40%, off-hand bonus is +50%.

1. Character has 4 base attacks:
Two handed (TH) damage is 560 per round = 4 * 100 * 1.4
Dual wielding damage with Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (STWF) damage is 550 per round = (4 * 100) + (3 * 100 * 0.5)

2. Character has 4 base attacks, plus 1 from haste:
TH damage is 700 per round = 5 * 100 * 1.4
STWF damage is 650 per round = (5 * 100) + (3 * 100 * 0.5)

3. Character has 4 base attacks plus 1 from haste plus 2 from CL 55 Tensers / Divine Power / HS boots etc.
TH damage is 980 per round = 7 * 100 * 1.4
STWF damage is 850 per round = (7 * 100) + (3 * 100 * 0.5)

The only case when dual wielding (or double weapon) can beat 2h damage is if the character had 3 attacks (say, rogue with no haste buff), and that does not occur in reality.

Suggestion

Follow up the Superior Two-Weapon Fighting feat with Superior Ambidexterity: off-hand attacks deal 100% damage, instead of 50%. That way taking all those feats will be rewarded with more damage potential.

The biggest advantage dualwielding has over 2h is the amount of damage dealt with non-physical types. If dualwielding is on par with 2h in physical damage, the amount of extra attacks provided to deal more elem/exo dmg will throw dualwielding ahead of 2h by a huge margin. 2h -should- be the superior means of physical dmg (imo). Not as much as currently, but 2h should indeed deal more physical damage, at least calculated after DR (which hits dual-wielding harder than 2h). 

With that in mind, upping the bonus of the offhand damage to 100% would put dualwielding with STWF up to (7*100) + (3 * 100 * 1) = 1k > 980 from 2h, + having 3 attacks more for the purpose of elem/exo damage. This is a pretty significant advantage over 2h, though only for truly high ab toons. Then there is the question, should they indeed be that much ahead considering the feat investment? I'm not sure. I'd like to think no just because I hate buffing dualwielders (SUPERBIASED).