Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 23:07:22 GMT
Since I first joined the server, and for many years before that, MANY players have been 'waiting for Limbo'.
"This game is too easy!"
"There's no challenge anymore!"
"We need Paragon areas for our Paragon characters to play in!"
"We need LIMBO!"
Limbo is here.
It has been here for two weeks now... but for most players it may as well not be in the game, because outside of guilds, it is barely being run.
If you check the !chat/!runmsg history in Webdash, Limbo is basically not being mentioned anymore. I admit that I'm not observing 24/7 so I could be missing runs, but by my count there were a small handful of PUG/guild run attempts in the first week, and I believe there has been almost none in the second week.
One of the first complaints was that it was too hard due to Paragon counts; demi-shackling was introduced very quickly, yet doesn't seem to have changed anything.
I cannot give a perfect answer as to why this is, because I am one of the guilded players running it. But my gut feeling is that it isn't getting run because the average player doesn't find it rewarding enough to be worth the hassle - a fair few players did try it once, but seemed to find it difficult and probably felt they got nothing from it (if P1 is cancelled early, the reward is ~3 canopics per player and NO sets), so never bothered returning.
The purpose of this thread is to open up discussion on this point.
Yes, we all know the argument that "as people get more familiar with Limbo, run-efficiency will increase thus the rewards will increase". This logic is only true IF players are actually attempting the run, which doesn't appear to be the case for the majority of the server.
[I'm going to pause here and pre-emptively strike to shut down any possible comments like "why don't you guilded players take everyone else through the run?" The simple answer is that if the ONLY WAY for runs to get finished are guilds dragging others through them, then it's a failure of the system.]
Before we proceed, some basic information about Limbo and it's rewards:
*One of the main rewards of Limbo is the Canopic, used to unlock XR items.
XRs are great, with their base items being significantly better than BURs. But players that Limbo should appeal to have collected and hoarded BURs for several years, and tend to use extremely well-randomized items at the moment. Of the handful of XR items currently in circulation, I believe most of them aren't actually being used because well-randomized BURs are better.
This was always expected, and isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means that '1 random XR' isn't a great reward, you need multiple XRs before you get something that you will want to use over your current equipment.
-> Pulling a figure out of the air for this discussion, let's just say that for every 3 XRs you get, only one of them will be an immediate upgrade for your current gear (this could be either an over or under-estimate).
So essentially we get 1 'usable XR' per 150 canopics.
*P2 is *much* harder than P1, but even when mastered I suspect the canopic:time ratio will not be vastly different from P1.
For the purposes of this discussion, let's ignore P2 and focus entirely on P1, because PUG runs will realistically not be able to finish P2 for a long time.
*Duration of P1 varies according to group composition/experience, reasonable numbers are between 75-180 minutes. My personal opinion is that it would take MONTHS of solid play before the average PUG is able to finish P1 in under 90 minutes.
*Rough* calculations for Limbo rewards:
By contrast, in 32 hours of play those same pickup groups could likely finish 3x full Hell-cycles, or 2x full Abyss cycles (getting a LOT of Set Loot/BURs/Gold in the process).
Simply put, the reward:time ratio for Limbo is abysmally low, and I *think* that this is the main reason so few players are bothering to go in there.
From the point of view of an average player, they would be entering a new and scary place, possibly Fugue'ing and losing items/gold, playing with a high chance of total wipe.
Even if they grind through it patiently and eventually learn the map, the rewards are close to non-existant, so why bother?
Is my opinion skewed, because I run it with a guild? Yes, I am just guessing here.
Is my 'guess' for why Limbo isn't getting run by PUGs right or wrong? I don't know, you tell me.
What do you guys think?Answer the poll and post your opinion!
Edit: Removed poll, it was adding very little value due to most active forumers having not entered Limbo anyway - please just post your thoughts instead.
"This game is too easy!"
"There's no challenge anymore!"
"We need Paragon areas for our Paragon characters to play in!"
"We need LIMBO!"
Limbo is here.
It has been here for two weeks now... but for most players it may as well not be in the game, because outside of guilds, it is barely being run.
If you check the !chat/!runmsg history in Webdash, Limbo is basically not being mentioned anymore. I admit that I'm not observing 24/7 so I could be missing runs, but by my count there were a small handful of PUG/guild run attempts in the first week, and I believe there has been almost none in the second week.
One of the first complaints was that it was too hard due to Paragon counts; demi-shackling was introduced very quickly, yet doesn't seem to have changed anything.
I cannot give a perfect answer as to why this is, because I am one of the guilded players running it. But my gut feeling is that it isn't getting run because the average player doesn't find it rewarding enough to be worth the hassle - a fair few players did try it once, but seemed to find it difficult and probably felt they got nothing from it (if P1 is cancelled early, the reward is ~3 canopics per player and NO sets), so never bothered returning.
The purpose of this thread is to open up discussion on this point.
Yes, we all know the argument that "as people get more familiar with Limbo, run-efficiency will increase thus the rewards will increase". This logic is only true IF players are actually attempting the run, which doesn't appear to be the case for the majority of the server.
[I'm going to pause here and pre-emptively strike to shut down any possible comments like "why don't you guilded players take everyone else through the run?" The simple answer is that if the ONLY WAY for runs to get finished are guilds dragging others through them, then it's a failure of the system.]
Before we proceed, some basic information about Limbo and it's rewards:
*One of the main rewards of Limbo is the Canopic, used to unlock XR items.
XRs are great, with their base items being significantly better than BURs. But players that Limbo should appeal to have collected and hoarded BURs for several years, and tend to use extremely well-randomized items at the moment. Of the handful of XR items currently in circulation, I believe most of them aren't actually being used because well-randomized BURs are better.
This was always expected, and isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means that '1 random XR' isn't a great reward, you need multiple XRs before you get something that you will want to use over your current equipment.
-> Pulling a figure out of the air for this discussion, let's just say that for every 3 XRs you get, only one of them will be an immediate upgrade for your current gear (this could be either an over or under-estimate).
So essentially we get 1 'usable XR' per 150 canopics.
*P2 is *much* harder than P1, but even when mastered I suspect the canopic:time ratio will not be vastly different from P1.
For the purposes of this discussion, let's ignore P2 and focus entirely on P1, because PUG runs will realistically not be able to finish P2 for a long time.
*Duration of P1 varies according to group composition/experience, reasonable numbers are between 75-180 minutes. My personal opinion is that it would take MONTHS of solid play before the average PUG is able to finish P1 in under 90 minutes.
*Rough* calculations for Limbo rewards:
*Average PUG size is ~8 players.
*Average Limbo P1 run drops ~50 Canopics -> 7 Canopics each
*1/8 chance to win the P1 set, 2/8 chance to win P1 weapons (Note: 50+ weapons in the game, the chance of getting a weapon you can immediately use is extremely slim)
Going with the previous assumption of '3x Random XRs to get something good', we need 150 canopics = 21 P1 runs
Taking the best case scenario of 90 minute P1's (this is VERY optimistic for an 8-man PUG, even with experience)
21 P1's x 90 minutes = 32 hours
32 hours of play = 1 usable XR + 2-3 set pieces + 1 immediately usable weapon (if you're lucky!)
[Remember: This is likely a huge UNDERESTIMATE of time for PUG runs!]
*Average Limbo P1 run drops ~50 Canopics -> 7 Canopics each
*1/8 chance to win the P1 set, 2/8 chance to win P1 weapons (Note: 50+ weapons in the game, the chance of getting a weapon you can immediately use is extremely slim)
Going with the previous assumption of '3x Random XRs to get something good', we need 150 canopics = 21 P1 runs
Taking the best case scenario of 90 minute P1's (this is VERY optimistic for an 8-man PUG, even with experience)
21 P1's x 90 minutes = 32 hours
32 hours of play = 1 usable XR + 2-3 set pieces + 1 immediately usable weapon (if you're lucky!)
[Remember: This is likely a huge UNDERESTIMATE of time for PUG runs!]
Simply put, the reward:time ratio for Limbo is abysmally low, and I *think* that this is the main reason so few players are bothering to go in there.
From the point of view of an average player, they would be entering a new and scary place, possibly Fugue'ing and losing items/gold, playing with a high chance of total wipe.
Even if they grind through it patiently and eventually learn the map, the rewards are close to non-existant, so why bother?
Is my opinion skewed, because I run it with a guild? Yes, I am just guessing here.
Is my 'guess' for why Limbo isn't getting run by PUGs right or wrong? I don't know, you tell me.
What do you guys think?
Edit: Removed poll, it was adding very little value due to most active forumers having not entered Limbo anyway - please just post your thoughts instead.