Death Is Only The Beginning

[Twilight Semner]

Guys, it's time. Someone had to do it. It may as well be me.

Intended power level: Paragon
Intended build: Evil clerics, blackguards, and (new!) assassins
Item replaced:

• Gift of Undeath (Ring)
  Ability Bonus: Strength +3
  Ability Score Penalty: Constitution -2
  Damage Immunity: Cold 25%
  Damage Immunity: Negative Energy 25%
  Damage Immunity: Slashing 5%
  Damage Vulnerability: Divine 25%
  Damage Vulnerability: Fire 10%
  Damage Vulnerability: Positive Energy 10%
  Immunity: Critical Hits
  Immunity: Death Magic
  Immunity: Poison
  Light Low (10m) Purple
  Only Useable By: Blackguard
  Only Useable By: Cleric
  Only Useable By: Evil
  Only Useable By: Pale Master
  Reduced Saving Throws: Universal -2
  Regeneration: +3
  Spell Resistance: 20
  True Seeing
  Use: Battletide (9) 3 Uses/Day
  Use: Ghostly Visage (15) 2 Uses/Day

Proposed Item:

• Death Is Only The Beginning (Ring)
  Ability Bonus: Strength +14 (scales to +16)
  Ability Bonus: Charisma +14 (scales to +16)
  Bonus Feat: Perfect Health
  Damage Immunity: Cold 40%
  Damage Immunity: Negative 50%
  Damage Immunity: Slashing 5%
  Damage Immunity: Piercing 5%
  Damage Immunity: Vile 10%
  Damage Vulnerability: Bludgeoning 10%
  Damage Vulnerability: Positive 10%
  Damage Vulnerability: Sacred 10%
  Immunity: Critical Hits
  Immunity: Death Magic
  Immunity: Poison
  Light low (10m) Purple
  Only Usable By: Assassin
  Only Usable By: Blackguard
  Only Usable By: Cleric
  Only Usable By: Evil
  Only Usable By: Palemaster
  Regeneration: +10
  True Seeing
  Use: Shadow Shield (11) 3 Uses/Day
  Use: Greater Sanctuary (11) 5 Uses/Day
  
  

[MurphysLawAgain]

In the past I seem to remember that crit immune on items was restricted to that ring because dexers with crazy high AC needed a weakness. Now the balance has shifted the other way. This ring would plug that weakness, as well as poison and disease checks (perfect health grants feat based poison immune doesn't it). I like offering it to Assassins as well - they can use the help.

I suggest that losing perfect health (to retain something for monks), retaining poison immune perhaps and dropping the regen to +3 would make it still very tasty for a Gsanc granting, Crit immune ring.

[simpetar]

Crit immunity alone is very powerful to appear on 70+ item along with other stuff and fluff. Lose Perfect Health, also quite powerful, for the sake of balance?

[Twilight Semner]

Yeah, I'm cool with dropping Perfect Health. My worry is, would it still qualify at paragon level if I removed it? Or is the addition of assassins, removal of CON penalty, etc. enough to make up the difference?

[woqued]

Even if you don't drop Perfect Health, it'll still be very costly ring to wear; dropping immring for a ring that doesn't provide mord/breach/imms, or for paragon areas some misc spell immunities (weird,plode,disint,dispel,pwk, yadayada)... Seems mega costly! In particular for dexers in robes and at best small shields......... I'd consider using it on some weird STR tanks like Fighter in a plate, or a Stormlord (which are limited as not being able to wear it). However, with the potential future introduction of OP XR gear setups, it might prove too strong. Currently it really does not seem too strong.

That being said I haven't played dexers much so take my comments with a grain of salt; but on first glance I didn't feel the Perfect Health was out of place for a paragon version of the ring. Although it might be worth considering toning it down a bit and instead fit it for the newer 55-60 areas as a drop - make it easier to attain that way too.

Edit: might wear it on a cleric with pw + breach boots on second thought - can wield plate + tower so can cover imms even without it, and high buff tankiness - would be worth to wear it just to be immune to Called Shot + poison immunity... But still the low amount of exo immunity seems damn scary to equip.

[Deleted]

Twilight, have you run the numbers for how much Perfect Health reduces Poison damage? I believe there is quite a complicated calculation for it post-patch. Probably easiest to test with DM-hax!

I'm guessing on an Assassin/Blackguard it would make the amount quite manageable (due to likely 'tank status' + inherent venom immunity), but my initial testing had Caster Cleric taking 6000+ damage from the new Poison, Palemaster might take a similar amount?
Even with Perfect Health, these classes may still get one-shotted by Poison. Though the Crit-Immune is definitely handy for Clerics.

I am not familiar with Dexers, might be good if some Assassin player (I'm not sure if any current Blackguards go Dex?) could comment on whether they would wear this ring over other XR/Paragon Set options.
Dexers usually have very high AC anyway, how important is Crit-Immune on them?

Is this item UMD-able?

[Twilight Semner]

I don't *think* it's UMD-able but I would hope the paragon version isn't. Also, it's not just for dexers. It's also for other STR characters who can't normally get crit imm, such as assassins, BG-splash shadowdancers, fighters etc. As far as Perfect Health goes, I'm not sure how poison damage works in *general* but I do know that BG/Sin Use Poison gives 50% immunity to Venom whereas Perfect Health gives 25% to both venom and blight.

[Lil' Mikey (Msowby2)]

Apr 2, 2016 0:46:36 GMT Twilight Semner said:

I don't *think* it's UMD-able but I would hope the paragon version isn't

Nothing really to add to the item itself, but the regular version CAN be worn with umd.

[condude]

For the most part, why do dexers need crit immunity? With their super high AC, is there anything that can effectively confirm a crit? Unlike attack rolls, crits aren't confirmed with a natural 20 on the confirmation roll.

[simpetar]

Apr 2, 2016 0:40:19 GMT @ssj2poliwhirl said:

Twilight, have you run the numbers for how much Perfect Health reduces Poison damage? I believe there is quite a complicated calculation for it post-patch. Probably easiest to test with DM-hax!

I'm guessing on an Assassin/Blackguard it would make the amount quite manageable (due to likely 'tank status' + inherent venom immunity), but my initial testing had Caster Cleric taking 6000+ damage from the new Poison

From what I have seen, Viper Trees do 6000ish damage on failed check. An assassing with inherent venom reduction took 3k (and died, surprise surprise). IF Perfect Heatlh cuts that amount further in half and you are perfectly topped up, you COULD stand a chance.

[simpetar]

Apr 2, 2016 4:23:10 GMT condude said:

For the most part, why do dexers need crit immunity? With their super high AC, is there anything that can effectively confirm a crit? Unlike attack rolls, crits aren't confirmed with a natural 20 on the confirmation roll.

This is true under ideal circumstances: only confirmed crit that makes it past your usual dexer concealment can hit you. But you will often find yourself surrounded by mobs that reduce AC (very rapidly), inflict various vulnerabilities and/or disable you in some way. In these situations str tanks with less AC, but in heavier armors and with crit immunity stay alive, while dexers keep dying.

[Deleted]

Apr 2, 2016 7:07:32 GMT simpetar said:

From what I have seen, Viper Trees do 6000ish damage on failed check. An assassing with inherent venom reduction took 3k (and died, surprise surprise). IF Perfect Heatlh cuts that amount further in half and you are perfectly topped up, you COULD stand a chance.

Ah interesting, thanks for that data.
From what I've seen and heard, it sounds as though there's some analysis of your toon (classes and/or stats?) to determine if you are a 'tanky' or 'squishy' type, with the tanky-types taking ~1000 (Sabregirl's Blackguard took 500ish, makes sense due to 50% reduction) and squishy-types taking ~6000, with the squishy Assassin having it reduced to 3000ish as you said - I had previously assumed that Assassins would be considered tanky.

So if this is the case, Perfect Health would reduce Poison damage to:
'Tanky' toon = 750ish
'Tanky' toon with Venom Immunity = 250ish
'Squishy' toon = 4500ish
'Squishy' toon with Venom Immunity = 1500ish

Note also that my initial testing showed that Paragons seem to add 500ish per Paragon-tier to the damage vs squishy-types.

[Twilight Semner]

Great! So we've uh... established what Perfect Health does. Back to the topic at hand? Balanced? Not balanced? Needs buff? Needs nerf?

[Acaos]

Apr 2, 2016 7:07:32 GMT simpetar said:

I had previously assumed that Assassins would be considered tanky.

Assassins *should* be considered 'tanky'. Could you post a brief summary of your build and the gear you might have been using at the time?

Thanks,
Acaos

[simpetar]

Apr 2, 2016 15:02:08 GMT Acaos said:

Apr 2, 2016 7:07:32 GMT simpetar said:

I had previously assumed that Assassins would be considered tanky.

Assassins *should* be considered 'tanky'. Could you post a brief summary of your build and the gear you might have been using at the time?

Thanks,
Acaos

I suppose that quote should have been Poli's

That said assassin was Manuka's I believe, it was during Azza 1+2 we did earlier. I was playing turner and was getting venom damage around 6k. No immunity except basic coverage from gear, so dying to Viper Trees while trying to turn-stun was well deserved.