Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 11, 2016 23:40:09 GMT
EDIT: Currently I'm suggesting the same as Raj's suggestion below, as it's much, much simpler. SP: +(BK level/6 (max 10)) and DC: STR mod - 2.
Yes, BK again. C'mon Semner, lay off it. We get it, you have a pet project. Anyway, here goes.
In addition to the limited spell list, which is already going to be addressed, per this thread, BKs are still at a loss in terms of bonus Spell Penetration and DC. So this suggestion is to address those problems.
Spell Penetration:
The current formula doesn't really allow BKs to get decent spell penetration from STR modifier alone (which is one of the few really appealing quasiclass features BK gets). At (STR mod/4) BKs have a maximum SP bonus of +8, if they put absolutely EVERYTHING into STR with a BUR race (base STR 18 Pharlan with Great Strength X and STR artifact at level 80). At level 60, the same build gets +7 SP. So not only are they not on par with level 60 casters at level 60, but even at level 80, they are only on par with a level 60 caster.
There are additional concerns, however, that I feel the need to address before making a suggestion. First, it's important to note that the above numbers are with a BUR race, so we also need to take into account the viability of an open subrace BK, as well as secret, UR etc. For open subrace BKs, there really aren't a lot of options. Half-elf Nymphkin is probably the best bet stat wise (since it gives +2 CHA and no penalty to STR). Setting aside all of the other statting complications with attempting such a build, you're probably going to end up starting with around 16 STR (because otherwise you simply won't be able to get enough CHA for spells). So you'd end up with 66 STR if you put absolutely everything you can into it (including STR artifact, Great STR X and +14 item), still barely managing to get a SP bonus of +7 (at a significant cost and likely detriment to the build), and just barely managing to get to +8 SP.
My suggestion is to change:
- Bane Knights receive a bonus of STR mod / 4 to Spell Penetration which does not stack with feats.
To:
- Bane Knights receive a bonus of ((STR mod / 3) - 1) to Spell Penetration, capped at (Bane Knight level (including paragon levels) / 7) to a max of +10 Spell Penetration at Bane Knight level 70 and 74 or greater Strength.
Rationale:
So I recognize that this is a significant increase in the amount of Spell penetration that BKs get, but due to the extremely feat-tight/stat-tight nature of the quasiclass, as well as the inherent limitation in their spell casting which comes from a limited spell list (even with the additional spell to-be-added which will help immensely) I think this is quite balanced.
Spell Difficulty Class:
Using the same modifiers as above, and applying them to the BK formula for DC (STR mod * 9/10) we find that: a BUR subrace BK gets +27 to DC (vs. +30 for a normal BUR caster), +25 for an open subrace BK (vs. +28 for a normal open subrace caster) both at level 60. At level 80, the BUR BK gets +31 to DC (vs. +34 for a BUR caster) and the open subrace gets +28 (vs. +32 for a normal open subrace caster).
My suggestion here is quite simple. Change:
- Spell DCs for certain spells (those listed below) are equal to 10 + spell level + (STR modifierx9/10).
To:
- Spell DCs for certain spells (those listed below) are equal to 10 + spell level + (STR modifier - 2).
Rationale:
A flat -2 would offset the bonus Strength that BKs get from CC BG, putting them on par with other casters, but only if they choose to absolutely maximize Strength. This seems pretty unlikely, considering how many stats in which a BK needs to invest (ie. STR, CHA, DEX, INT), so I think there's a built-in balance factor here as well.
Anyway, those are the suggestions. Thoughts?
Yes, BK again. C'mon Semner, lay off it. We get it, you have a pet project. Anyway, here goes.
In addition to the limited spell list, which is already going to be addressed, per this thread, BKs are still at a loss in terms of bonus Spell Penetration and DC. So this suggestion is to address those problems.
Spell Penetration:
The current formula doesn't really allow BKs to get decent spell penetration from STR modifier alone (which is one of the few really appealing quasiclass features BK gets). At (STR mod/4) BKs have a maximum SP bonus of +8, if they put absolutely EVERYTHING into STR with a BUR race (base STR 18 Pharlan with Great Strength X and STR artifact at level 80). At level 60, the same build gets +7 SP. So not only are they not on par with level 60 casters at level 60, but even at level 80, they are only on par with a level 60 caster.
There are additional concerns, however, that I feel the need to address before making a suggestion. First, it's important to note that the above numbers are with a BUR race, so we also need to take into account the viability of an open subrace BK, as well as secret, UR etc. For open subrace BKs, there really aren't a lot of options. Half-elf Nymphkin is probably the best bet stat wise (since it gives +2 CHA and no penalty to STR). Setting aside all of the other statting complications with attempting such a build, you're probably going to end up starting with around 16 STR (because otherwise you simply won't be able to get enough CHA for spells). So you'd end up with 66 STR if you put absolutely everything you can into it (including STR artifact, Great STR X and +14 item), still barely managing to get a SP bonus of +7 (at a significant cost and likely detriment to the build), and just barely managing to get to +8 SP.
My suggestion is to change:
- Bane Knights receive a bonus of STR mod / 4 to Spell Penetration which does not stack with feats.
To:
- Bane Knights receive a bonus of ((STR mod / 3) - 1) to Spell Penetration, capped at (Bane Knight level (including paragon levels) / 7) to a max of +10 Spell Penetration at Bane Knight level 70 and 74 or greater Strength.
Rationale:
So I recognize that this is a significant increase in the amount of Spell penetration that BKs get, but due to the extremely feat-tight/stat-tight nature of the quasiclass, as well as the inherent limitation in their spell casting which comes from a limited spell list (even with the additional spell to-be-added which will help immensely) I think this is quite balanced.
Spell Difficulty Class:
Using the same modifiers as above, and applying them to the BK formula for DC (STR mod * 9/10) we find that: a BUR subrace BK gets +27 to DC (vs. +30 for a normal BUR caster), +25 for an open subrace BK (vs. +28 for a normal open subrace caster) both at level 60. At level 80, the BUR BK gets +31 to DC (vs. +34 for a BUR caster) and the open subrace gets +28 (vs. +32 for a normal open subrace caster).
My suggestion here is quite simple. Change:
- Spell DCs for certain spells (those listed below) are equal to 10 + spell level + (STR modifierx9/10).
To:
- Spell DCs for certain spells (those listed below) are equal to 10 + spell level + (STR modifier - 2).
Rationale:
A flat -2 would offset the bonus Strength that BKs get from CC BG, putting them on par with other casters, but only if they choose to absolutely maximize Strength. This seems pretty unlikely, considering how many stats in which a BK needs to invest (ie. STR, CHA, DEX, INT), so I think there's a built-in balance factor here as well.
Anyway, those are the suggestions. Thoughts?