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Post by simpetar on Apr 29, 2016 11:11:55 GMT
Also you claim that theoretical numbers would provide a better basis for discusion vs actually data from runs. I think if even then only both together would. That is correct in the sense that raw numbers from theoretical calculations level out the difference between good and bad players. Actual data when all measured classes / builds spend the same time attacking the relevant targets without being distracted give solid base for discussion. When characters spend time repositioning, rezzing, assisting, rebuffing or doing whatever special task, however justified or commendable those actions may be, it contaminates the damage data.
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Post by Raj on Apr 29, 2016 11:14:45 GMT
I totally missed Murphy's request for logs, props to you for providing them. I really find such logs (not yours, all logs in general) not very useful for these sort of discussions and easily manipulable; obviously now digging through them I can see some good datas (and couple of pearls like the ones quoted ) but the simple amount of variance in such run requires far more post-run work than using common knowledge: let just see the avg dmg on your builds, compare vs some common mobs we have the KV of, then multiply it for the attacks you can perform and that base number is then compared against other toons. If you want to work with 'real' datas then a lot more work is required, some examples (same priority target for everybody): [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 29 05:39:57] Leyn Teh'Pohk damages Firstborn: 79 (26 Physical 1 Magical 50 Acid 2 Negative Energy) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 29 05:39:58] .:Crack Slinger:. damages Firstborn: 86 (42 Physical 32 Acid 12 Divine) Both using the right damage type, numbers are close but consistently in favor of the slinger. Low phys dmg is the culprit here. Was baz using an ego? How many attacks each? [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 29 05:40:17] Cappan damages Firstborn: 75 (35 Physical 20 Acid 0 Cold 10 Divine 2 Negative Energy 0 Positive Energy 8 Sonic) #note: not a sneak [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 29 06:14:49] Cappan damages Firstborn: 123 (82 Physical 23 Acid 0 Cold 10 Divine 2 Negative Energy 0 Positive Energy 6 Sonic) #a sneak [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 29 05:48:10] Rumpshakir damages Firstborn: 86 (51 Physical 0 Magical 21 Acid 4 Divine 0 Fire 0 Positive Energy 10 Sonic) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 29 05:48:10] Rumpshakir damages Firstborn: 111 (52 Physical 0 Magical 45 Acid 7 Divine 0 Fire 0 Positive Energy 7 Sonic) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 29 05:48:12] Semner d'Ioatar damages Firstborn: 126 (44 Physical 0 Magical 39 Acid 0 Cold 14 Divine 20 Electrical 9 Sonic) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 29 05:48:15] Semner d'Ioatar damages Firstborn: 121 (45 Physical 0 Magical 41 Acid 0 Cold 14 Divine 13 Electrical 8 Sonic) Compared to melee folks, ranged damage sure is not impressive. In line with not-sneaking 1handed (cappan uses kukri afaik?) rogue but inferior to sneaks and barbarians/staffies, when they don't roll too low on dices. Those ranged toons might have more attacks than the rogue and the barbarian and being at distance gives some leeway with target selection; here a #stat.vs Firstborn, comparing the amount of attacks, the attacks that hit, the overall damage and the dmg/atk, made at end run would have helped. [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 29 05:48:10] Leyn Teh'Pohk damages Firstborn: 33 (30 Physical 1 Magical 0 Cold 2 Negative Energy) [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 29 05:48:16] .:Crack Slinger:. damages Firstborn: 52 (40 Physical 0 Cold 12 Divine) It is also worth note how poorly/lazy played, ignorant of best dmg types, or simply toons who autoattack before changing damage after their original target died (and I'll put both of you in this last category, before you get wrongly butthurt again) deal terrible, terrible damage. That happened rarely on your run but player efficiency is indeed a big variance in loggers, that's why theoretical numbers are better imo. Now, I coudn't bother copy-paste every single attack vs such Firstborns for example, going by guts feeling and saying ''32 acid is a good avg dmg your slinger can deal'' is already a simplification I made and might be wrong, after checking ''more real'' numbers (aka, KV datas). Similarly, even checking how much damage you did at the end of the run is biased: I see a lot of ''wasted'' attacks on rakshasas, but I know those were deemed necessary to breach/silence them while in a different situation you might have ignored them to go after other targets. Same for shooting a random barbazu, who knows if it's just an excuse to inflate damage, being lazy, or the only way somebody had to prevent the KDed mage to be critted the next round (ok, if you're using fire bow vs a barbazu then we can exclude the latter ).
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Post by bazukar on Apr 29, 2016 11:18:18 GMT
Can we stop with the passive aggressive attitudes? It's not bringing anything to the discussion.
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Post by Raj on Apr 29, 2016 11:19:11 GMT
Can we stop with the passive aggressive attitudes? It's not bringing anything to the discussion. Make fun of target selection if you want, but several times that run I myself had to go rail on something that wasn't a PF because it was beating on me and the rest of us were otherwise occupied. There are plenty of factors regarding what you are smacking at any given time. Sheesh. This is some basic numbers to help illustrate the issue. I'm all for more data and dissemination. Let's focus on that rather than sniping. Oi, stop posting when I'm busy with some walls of text where I answer the same stuff :/ I'm arguing the same things of both of you btw, and the first reply was mostly an attempt at focusing on less anectodal evidence. Yeah, before I realized the topic creator asked exactly for that. I'll flame him another day.
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Post by Raj on Apr 29, 2016 11:19:23 GMT
There are plenty of factors regarding what you are smacking at any given time. While it is *a* metric, the huge variance based on party size/composition/skill/play-style as well as rewarding sub-optimal play (ie: hitting trash) makes it inferior next to a direct theoretical comparison. That is correct in the sense that raw numbers from theoretical calculations level out the difference between good and bad players. Actual data when all measured classes / builds spend the same time attacking the relevant targets without being distracted give solid base for discussion. When characters spend time repositioning, rezzing, assisting, rebuffing or doing whatever special task, however justified or commendable those actions may be, it contaminates the damage data. Same for shooting a random barbazu, who knows if it's just an excuse to inflate damage, being lazy, or the only way somebody had to prevent the KDed mage to be critted the next round. We're totally not saying the same thing. No, not at all.
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Post by Paradoom on Apr 29, 2016 11:32:07 GMT
It appears that it is rather easy to get what ever data you want out of the files actually as you prove in your posts. I´m still waiting for any constructive improvement suggestion on the AA (not slinger since this thread is about AA).
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Post by bazukar on Apr 29, 2016 11:32:57 GMT
Your snark makes me feel like you are assuming some kind of bad faith or cooking of numbers on our part regarding a class neither of us have any intention of playing long term.
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Post by Raj on Apr 29, 2016 11:47:38 GMT
Nah, I assume other things. And you're not funny.
Edit: Ignore the snark and focus on the content then, looks like others proved to have such ability.
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Post by Raj on Apr 29, 2016 11:50:28 GMT
It appears that it is rather easy to get what ever data you want out of the files actually as you prove in your posts. I´m still waiting for any constructive improvement suggestion on the AA (not slinger since this thread is about AA). It's easy if you know what to look for, and even then I lack the basic datas like what builds were partecipating. Also look at the barbarian and rogue not having electrical on the weapon in those arbitrary logs: in theory some a/e/s/d weapon works best but do people own/craft/bother buff/bother swap the right weapon all the frigging time? That's a big plus for the weaklings AA/Slinger/Staffy, albeit in the Hells everything takes at least 3 damage types so standard melee users keep the damage lead even when playing lazy, thanks to higher base physical damage. When I posted that I don't think this is a (quasi)class fault, more a monsters design issue. I was hinting at how much usefulness specific damage type lost with the introduction of universal weapon buffs, while at the same time the mobs were kept pretty much the same. There're some abyss/limbo examples where a single big damage packet is actually proving worthwhile, while not being at the same time a indirect buff to casters (aka, high imm to everything but 1 element, and high SR). Still, these examples are few and not deemed enough of a hassle to justify bringing a AA aboard over some other damage dealer. Monster-side edits would go a long way to change things, but not what you'd like to read here. I´m still waiting for any constructive improvement suggestion on the AA (not slinger since this thread is about AA). I keep reading at murphy's suggestions and can't help thinking ''too much dev work for little cosmetic benefits'', where the lack of dmg is the basic issue for everybody who played, or refused to play, such toons in the last years (right after weapon buffs got introduced). I'd keep things simple for AA CC and even wiz (bard/sorc too omg) CC ones, add a bunch of dices to those bows who are doing the same damage than they do 10 years ago. You can add all the utility you want but if the damage is sub par there're way better alternatives to ranged dps. Most of the ''cool'' abilities I'd leave to the arcane CC variants, that atm are also bugged/limited to 3 imbues/day; in general, AA skills should scale with both AA and casterclass levels, imo.
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Post by woqued on Apr 29, 2016 12:18:39 GMT
It appears that it is rather easy to get what ever data you want out of the files actually as you prove in your posts. I´m still waiting for any constructive improvement suggestion on the AA (not slinger since this thread is about AA). Any change on ranged classes as a whole will directly affect all ranged classes, thus it makes sense to not keep their damage outputs separate. This also gives better perspective on the "ranged toon damage balance" as a whole. I think the already mentioned upping the damage output of projectiles to better match buffed DB/Abyss/Dis/UR/XR melee weapons would be the simplest and shortest -easy- improvement, and think of the utility needed after. Granting ranged disarm is also a decent idea, and thematically nice. The points Raj made about the quantity of damage are good in terms of how much to increase the damage. Perhaps someone who actually has ranged toons could do the theoretical math here and provide a reasonable number on how much the damage should be improved? Random idea1: Since there already is a mechanic that takes into account if a player is a "caster" or a "tank" (reworked poison), AA's could have a mechanic that would grant them extra damage on caster monsters? This would make sense for them as casters hiding behind a tank wall are nice targets for ranged toons, something your tanks and casters have issues dealing with. This would make sense in a party setup where you try to provide something for your party that they can't do by themselves. 2: Adding a Spell Failure effect to Seeker Arrow (10% per 10 AA levels incl LL, capping at 50% at pure, skilldump/ftrsplash for 40%) for CL/5 rounds (capping at 50% for 5 rounds at 30 AA, splashed 4 rounds) - applying a mind-numbing effect on Psionic users as well. 3: Reworking Arrow of Death to be usable more often than once every 4 minutes when it's power is similar if not worse to regular caster/shifter death magic; it should at least be stronger if it's only usable once in a blue moon when it also respects SR. 4: Re-tweaking the Infliction provided by AA to not be limited to Wiz/Sorc CC ones, and changing the scaling to CC/3, capping at 25%. It's not terrible to have both a ranged and a melee inflicting type of toons in the game. You can say this steps on the shoes of Lash, but Lash will also provide a tank to the party. AA could be the Ranged alternative. 5. Changing the incentive of 30 AA from Keen to Infliction upgrade or an utility upgrade of some kind; you need to sacrifice damage (on top of skilldump class) in form of not splashing Fighter to get damage vs crittables in keen? That's a bit unfortunate for super accurate archers being bad at striking critical areas unless you are pure. Providing Keen earlier and providing a better incentive at "Pure AA" would seem better. What could this "better incentive" be? Edit: took too long posting. The "AA Abilities" should indeed scale with Sorc/Wiz levels as well.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 29, 2016 17:22:43 GMT
So I ran some numbers, against a couple of nasties, first is Brood Serpent, second is Death Knight, and compared the respective damage of Staffmaster, AA, Slinger and 2H CoT. I assumed 3 buffed elements on both quarterstaff and maul for Staffy and CoT respectively. I do not assume Farseers or Wrap for AA, but I do assume full weapon spec. Anyway, numbers are as follows: Brood Serpent: <creature race="Outsider" timeStamp="2011-07-30T14:03:55.0000000Z" name="Brood Serpent"> <damageImmunities> <damage resistance="10" immunity="30" type="Bludgeoning"/> <damage resistance="15" immunity="40" type="Piercing"/> <damage resistance="10" immunity="20" type="Slashing"/> <damage resistance="0" immunity="30" type="Acid"/> <damage resistance="0" immunity="100" type="Cold"/> <damage resistance="0" immunity="50" type="Electrical"/> <damage resistance="0" immunity="100" type="Fire"/> <damage resistance="0" immunity="70" type="Sonic"/> <damage resistance="0" immunity="30" type="Divine"/> <damage resistance="0" immunity="100" type="Magical"/> <damage resistance="0" immunity="80" type="Negative"/> <damage resistance="0" immunity="100" type="Positive"/> </damageImmunities> Staffy base: 78.5 Bludgeoning, 6d12 (39 each) CES 2d12 (13 each) DNP, 12d10 (66) Acid Blackstaff - 44.95 Phys + 19.5 Elec + 11.7 Sonic + 9.1 Divine + 2.6 Negative + 46.2 Acid = 134.05 per hit (938.35/round) AA base: 73.5 Piercing, 15d8 (67.5) Acid, 2d12 (13) Magic, 2d12 (13) Negative - 29.1 Phys + 47.25 Acid + 2.6 Negative = 78.95 per hit (552.65/round) Slinger base: 49.5 + 6d8 (27) Bludgeoning, 15d8 (67.5) Divine - 43.55 Phys + 47.25 Divine = 90.8 per hit (726.4/round) 2H CoT base: 179.9 Bludgeoning, 6d12 (54.6 each) AFS 2d12 (18.2) DMP - 115.93 Phys + 38.22 Acid + 16.38 Sonic + 12.74 Divine = 183.27 per hit (1,099.62/round) Death Knight: <creature timeStamp="2012-03-16T13:04:28.9495535Z" name="Death Knight"> <damageImmunities> <damage resistance="10" immunity="40" type="Bludgeoning"/> <damage resistance="10" immunity="50" type="Piercing"/> <damage resistance="10" immunity="50" type="Slashing"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="60" type="Acid"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="100" type="Cold"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="60" type="Electrical"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="60" type="Fire"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="60" type="Sonic"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="100" type="Divine"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="70" type="Magical"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="0" type="Negative" healing="8"/> <damage resistance="0" immunity="40" type="Positive"/> </damageImmunities> Staffy: 37.1 Phys + 10.6 Fire + 10.6 Acid + 10.6 Sonic + 39.6 Positive = 108.5 per hit (759.5/round) AA: 26.75 Phys + 35.1 Positive = 61.85 per hit (432.95/round) Slinger: 35.9 Phys + 21.6 Fire = 59.5 per hit (476/round) 2H CoT: 97.94 Phys + 16.84 Fire + 16.84 Acid + 16.84 Sonic + 10.92 Positive = 159.38 per hit (956.28/round) So assuming all else is equal, meaning AB, Listen, all applicable buffs, etc. AA doesn't even do as much damage as Slinger against these specific problem mobs, and without any of the utility. Both of them pale in comparison to Staffmaster, which itself pales in comparison to 2H CoT - which probably isn't the strongest of the 2H builds. Note that with Farseer and Wrap, AA will likely surpass Slinger in terms of theoretical damage, but again, without the considerable utility Slinger offers. I think a significant increase in damage for AAs is necessary. (Probably staffy too, but let's save that for a different thread. ) If we were to apply the 20d8/5d12 that I previously suggested into the above model, the numbers would be as follows: Brood Serpent: 29.1 Phys + 63 Acid + 6.5 Negative = 98.6 per hit (690.2/round) Death Knight: 26.75 Phys + 48.6 Positive = 75.35 per hit (527.45/round) This still seems a low, so I would suggest increasing it even further. Hope this helps!
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Post by drunkenboastor on Apr 29, 2016 18:15:01 GMT
AA is such a boring class to play.
8 attacks per round or use special ability that will do less than the 8 attacks per round. No swift action, unlikely to be in range if did have persuade, taunt or bluff.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 19:09:04 GMT
Thanks Twilight, this is exactly the type of information I was looking for (I'm content to blindly assume it's accurate until someone else disagrees) - though to be fair, there would have been bonus points if less niche mobs were chosen (Brood Serpent appears in 1 of ~27 Hell maps, Death Knight in 3 [+2x mini-bosses] of ~50 Abyss maps)! Could also be cool to eventually see some extra numbers with Farseer ego + Wrap included. Anyway, it's clear that AA certainly needs a significant DPS boost. From the few numbers you've posted, it seems even a flat 30% overall boost would leave them mediocre.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Apr 29, 2016 19:37:13 GMT
More numbers: Balor: <creature timeStamp="2012-03-16T13:01:17.0315764Z" name="Balor"> <damageImmunities> <damage resistance="10" immunity="40" type="Bludgeoning"/> <damage resistance="10" immunity="20" type="Piercing"/> <damage resistance="10" immunity="60" type="Slashing"/> <damage resistance="0" immunity="40" type="Acid"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="60" type="Cold"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="90" type="Electrical"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="100" type="Fire"/> <damage resistance="10" immunity="60" type="Sonic"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="90" type="Divine"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="90" type="Magical"/> <damage resistance="0" immunity="90" type="Negative"/> <damage resistance="5" immunity="40" type="Positive"/> </damageImmunities> Staffy base: 78.5 Bludgeoning, 6d12 (39 each) CES 2d12 (13 each) DNP, 12d10 (66) Acid Blackstaff - 37.1 Phys + 10.6 Cold + 5.6 Sonic + 2.8 Positive + 39.6 Acid = 95.7 per hit (669.9/round) AA base: 73.5 Piercing, 15d8 (67.5) Acid, 2d12 (13) Magic, 2d12 (13) Negative - 48.8 Phys + 40.5 = 89.3 per hit (625.1/round -- 786.4/round w/Farseer + Wrap) Slinger base: 49.5 + 6d8 (27) Bludgeoning, 12d8 (54) Acid, 3d8 (13.5) Divine - 35.9 Phys + 32.4 Acid = 68.3 per hit (546.4/round) 2H CoT base: 179.9 Bludgeoning, 6d12 (54.6 each) AFS 2d12 (18.2) DMP - 97.94 Phys + 32.76 Acid + 11.84 Sonic + 5.92 Positive = 148.46 per hit (890.76/round) Noticed in my other numbers that I didn't have a problem enemy that took piercing best, so I ran these numbers. Looks a little bit better for AAs (as expected), but an AA with Ego and Prince Wrap is still not much better off than Staffy, and still a bit behind a 2H with even a sub-optimal damage type. EDIT: Just for fun, the same CoT focused in Halberd, with a level 50 Acid/Positive weapon, would do: 133.92 Phys + 49.14 Acid + 22.3 Positive = 205.36 per hit (1,232.16/round). Just in case you wanted to feel even worse for poor AAs.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 21:13:21 GMT
TBH, using nerfed weapons makes melee data like that of limited value Anyway, I made my attempt at the four mobs I mentioned earlier (Pit Fiend/Malebranche/Balor/Marilith) with 'standard' weapons from Raj's Weapon Crafting Guide. I literally did this right after getting out of bed, and I am quite confident there are various careless errors which I will try to pick up later today [please point it out if you spot any]... hopefully won't need to scrap the whole thing. Finally, worth noting again that these numbers are quite simplified (eg: no conceal), but if we assume everyone is affected roughly equally then the trend will be similar anyway. I shamelessly stole Twilight's base numbers/formatting (again, assuming blindly that they are correct until proven otherwise; if they are wrong, then all my numbers will be wrong too) - on that note, it looks like Wrap *was* included for the 2H CoT damage? Just checking, I am quite clueless about CoT! Out of similar curiosity/cluelessness, could you also elaborate as to where the base physical damage comes from for AA/Slinger (73.5 and 49.5 respectively)? Anyway, interesting to note that Wrap/Ego adds ~25-30% DPS to AA in general against these mobs, quite significant indeed. Pit Fiend:2H CoT (Maul) = 1422 per round Staffy = 1225 per round Slinger = 832 per round AA with Wrap/Ego = 736 per round AA = 567 per round Full Calculations: Malebranche:Staffy = 980 per round 2H CoT (Maul) = 966 per round AA with Wrap/Ego = 720 per round Slinger = 584 per round AA = 553 per round Full Calculations: Balor:2H CoT (Maul) = 996 per round Staffy = 840 per round AA with Wrap/Ego = 792 per round AA = 630 per round Slinger = 544 per round Full Calculations: Marilith:2H CoT (Maul) = 1446 per round Staffy = 1085 per round Slinger = 792 per round AA with Wrap/Ego = 720 per round AA = 567 per round Full Calculations: Average damage across all four mobs (quite limited value, but just for fun):2H CoT (Maul) = 1208 per round Staffy = 1033 per round AA with Wrap/Ego = 742 per round Slinger = 632 per round AA = 579 ---------- I guess the obvious question we have to answer before suggesting numbers, is where exactly should AA's (and other ranged guys) sit relative to other classes in terms of DPS? Edit: Aaaaand the error spotting begins. *Fixed Staffy Blackstaff damage *Fixed CoT not using Wrap (thanks to Twilight for confirming)
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