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Post by woqued on Aug 5, 2016 1:32:30 GMT
NECRO PROJECT!Item statistics Base Item: Gloves Armor Bonus +18 Deflection Damage Immunity: Negative 25% //Nothing will bring you down with the Upbeat Fondlers on your hands! Bonus Feat: Ambidexterity Bonus Feat: Superior Two-Weapon Fighting //How Nice Bonus Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Bonus Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting Damage Immunity: Bludgeoning 14% Damage Immunity: Piercing 14% Damage Immunity: Slashing 14% Enhancement Bonus: Dexterity +14 Skill Bonus: Discipline +20 Skill Bonus: Craft Weapon +20 Skill Bonus: Parry +20 Skill Bonus: Pick Pocket +25 // Flavor, not actually relevant Intended power level Paragon. The build it is intended for Anyone wanting to use dual wielding; coolest swap item EVERRR. 2h is still likely superior in most cases, but for 1h+shield guys who feel useless when tanking (soaking dmg and attention) is not needed on that particular run, swapping in the Upbeat Fondlers for best effect - and to prevent you from feeling sad in the majority of runs for going tankier build over 2h. Get to look cool swinging two Battle Axes when presented with the oppourtunity without self-nerfing. The item currently used that it would replace Duellists_Destiny - Note how it has "need higher base dex than str" thingie. I feel it's completely unnecessary and sorta outdated, thus not present in these gloves. Discuss? .. More commonly the item would replace any tanky gloves (often Asmo gloves; thanks for pointing it out Poli) of choice that have randomized well or provide a key misc immunity, or just a placeholder with a suitable augmenter like ESF:Listen one.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 2:22:51 GMT
Interesting concept for sure. The feat would ideally also be added to the game so it can be taken by legitimate dual-wielders too.
Perhaps a different slot to gloves would be more appropriate, since a decent proportion of tanks use Asmo Gloves which can be clunky as a swap item (certainly not fun if you were relying on them for 16s to STR/DEX) - Amulet might be an okay option?
Biggest issue with this right now is that you would have to buff a second weapon; same as any dual-wielder, except it would feel even more cumbersome since there is no guarantee of use. But with weapon buff changes planned for the future it would definitely be nice.
The other obvious question is whether these would actually get used. They're certainly an upgrade for a 1h'er, but how many 1h'er players are likely to tag and farm Paragon areas in the first place?
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Post by woqued on Aug 5, 2016 3:03:51 GMT
Slotchoice: there aren't many funny / usable gloves, I was hoping to make one for a specific, hopefully funny purpose. There are plenty amulets already that are strong, Asmogloves are such a popular choice because other gloves suck unless epic randomization and work as placeholder for an aug like Salamanders. To make it a more suitable permanently worn item or swapper, perhaps +16 str would be needed? What else? I'd try to avoid thinking where we stick too hard to our current gear lineups, XR items + if this set ever gets through so will many others, which will change gearing.
Buffing a second weapon wouldn't be an issue for paragon weapon user at least as much; could use Limbo weapons both pt1 and pt2 for this particular purpose and buff them (hopefully) with just GMW; just use a suitable one. Weapon buffing is annoying regardless, one extra is doable unless you buff a set for every mob. For easier runs this would be a funny alternative for those 1h toons, where not as many weapons are required anyway.
Other obvious question seems triggering to me; If they're certainly an upgrade for a 1h'er, it seems like a goal to fulfill with an item. Extra triggering: "how many 1h'er players are likely to tag and farm Paragon areas in the first place?" <-- that part is ignore-worthy as irrelevant and quite annoying but I'll reply: if they're so weak as to not even get to paragon areas, they obviously need some help whether it be items or something else. Any incentive not to be a spoiled 2h divine tank is very welcome, and deeming other stuff garbage and "not gonna tag anyway" -tier is unwelcome. Separate discussion for sure, imo. Especially since every succesful pt2 run has had a 1h tank be very valuable. Sadly the 1h tanks we brought (Lashes) do not have dualwielding possibility for whips due lack of animations (is this still correct?) so these gloves wouldn't really affect them as is.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 3:42:25 GMT
Fair points on slot choice and buffing issues. Other obvious question seems triggering to me; If they're certainly an upgrade for a 1h'er, it seems like a goal to fulfill with an item. Extra triggering: "how many 1h'er players are likely to tag and farm Paragon areas in the first place?" <-- that part is ignore-worthy as irrelevant and quite annoying but I'll reply: if they're so weak as to not even get to paragon areas, they obviously need some help whether it be items or something else. Any incentive not to be a spoiled 2h divine tank is very welcome, and deeming other stuff garbage and "not gonna tag anyway" -tier is unwelcome. Separate discussion for sure, imo. Especially since every succesful pt2 run has had a 1h tank be very valuable. Sadly the 1h tanks we brought (Lashes) do not have dualwielding possibility for whips due lack of animations (is this still correct?) so these gloves wouldn't really affect them as is. I'm sorry that the overall delivery came off as annoying/spoiled, but 'how often will this item get used' is an absolutely relevant question, and whether players that the item appeals to have the tag or not is an obvious factor in judging how much use it will see. Example: I could add a Paragon Set item designed for Gnomish Inventors and equally say, "this item is an upgrade for GI's, a class which needs it - if they are so weak as to not get to Paragon areas, they obviously need help," which is a true statement... but it doesn't change the fact that such an item is probably going to clog the loot table and gather dust in chests. If there is some player who doesn't care about power and likes GI's anyway, the item is still of little value since they will find getting the tag difficult. Perhaps a better question would be: If this item had been released in the Limbo patch and was currently dropping from P1, there would probably be ~10 copies of it floating around the server. Of those ~10 copies, how many would be getting serious use/demand right now? FWIW it was never meant as a rhetorical question; personally I would not be using them, but I can definitely see that SOME people would - the question is, what proportion of players is that? |
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Post by woqued on Aug 5, 2016 4:02:59 GMT
Fair points on slot choice and buffing issues. Other obvious question seems triggering to me; If they're certainly an upgrade for a 1h'er, it seems like a goal to fulfill with an item. Extra triggering: "how many 1h'er players are likely to tag and farm Paragon areas in the first place?" <-- that part is ignore-worthy as irrelevant and quite annoying but I'll reply: if they're so weak as to not even get to paragon areas, they obviously need some help whether it be items or something else. Any incentive not to be a spoiled 2h divine tank is very welcome, and deeming other stuff garbage and "not gonna tag anyway" -tier is unwelcome. Separate discussion for sure, imo. Especially since every succesful pt2 run has had a 1h tank be very valuable. Sadly the 1h tanks we brought (Lashes) do not have dualwielding possibility for whips due lack of animations (is this still correct?) so these gloves wouldn't really affect them as is. I'm sorry that the overall delivery came off as annoying/spoiled, but 'how often will this item get used' is an absolutely relevant question, and whether players that the item appeals to have the tag or not is an obvious factor in judging how much use it will see. Example: I could add a Paragon Set item designed for Gnomish Inventors and equally say, "this item is an upgrade for GI's, a class which needs it - if they are so weak as to not get to Paragon areas, they obviously need help," which is a true statement... but it doesn't change the fact that such an item is probably going to clog the loot table and gather dust in chests. If there is some player who doesn't care about power and likes GI's anyway, the item is still of little value since they will find getting the tag difficult. Perhaps a better question would be: If this item had been released in the Limbo patch and was currently dropping from P1, there would probably be ~10 copies of it floating around the server. Of those ~10 copies, how many would be getting serious use/demand right now? FWIW it was never meant as a rhetorical question; personally I would not be using them, but I can definitely see that SOME people would - the question is, what proportion of players is that? How much it'll be used definitely is a relevant question, true. However, I don't think it's fair to compare GI's to 1h users in general in terms of usefulness and how common they are. Valuable proven 1h users that may potentially use this item would be: DSM/BFM tanks, Stormlords, Dual-wep barbs? - 1h CoTs/Divine tanks (even smiters?) - (pre-reinc to 2h - 2h is more optimal choice, however not everyone would go 2h) - Battleclerics (assuming you don't have ./ can't rely on the cloak dropping from P1 where Maul would be the preferred choice over double warhammer, assuming you have Mauls too and feats on Warhammer and PWA on Maul). Of things debateable, assassins could be a big benefactor of such an item (though would MS DC be more valuable anyway over more attacks? Not sure here), and so could any Harper Scout 1h toon as they are not as eligible to relying on Asmo Gloves as opposed to Crest (as of now; not sure how it'd change with more XRs or Sets in circulation). I'm not considering these toons to only frequent Limbo after attaining reasonable strength to enter Limbo with this item in mind. I'm not sure how many of these would use these gloves in an optimal situation. Also, I'm not sure if we only want to create items based on the meta most frequented by the few people running Limbo; the class combinations used are quite homogenous. What proportion? No clue, to be honest. I don't think I have even an educated guess on that. On a separate note, would such a oppourtunity/potential inducing item where the idea of the item isn't to maximize meta powercreep potential be a good or a bad thing in a loot drop pool? Not saying this would be a joke item, but in principle. (TON OF EDITS)Edit: I do realize the annoyance of useless item drops in a loot pool where there is one or two absolutely golden items never showing up. However, I think this item doesn't fit in the useless category; at least any less than an unslaggable medium shield. Situational - potentially cool, grants new options previously unattainable is what this item is looking to achieve. Does it? And I don't think it's end boss set drop material, but rather something that a paragon area miniboss compareable to abyss pt2 boss could drop, or a midway chest with 4-6 items - think paladin crit immunity gloves from Elysium or similar chests. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 4:15:38 GMT
Also, I'm not sure if we only want to create items based on the meta most frequented by the few people running Limbo; the class combinations used are quite homogenous. This is a really good point, though it's hard to say what the solution/alternative is. It's a catch-22 with the current population running Limbo; focusing on items suitable for the ~rigid Limbo meta is arguably unhealthy for the server, but items that aren't designed for it are mostly relegated to chest fodder. On a separate note, would such a oppourtunity/potential inducing item where the idea of the item isn't to maximize meta powercreep potential be a good or a bad thing in a loot drop pool? I think this is a good thing for runs that are relatively easy to access/tag for most players - IMO it's unsatisfying for everyone to have non-meta items dropping in areas only played by meta players. In fact, it might be cooler to slightly nerf the stats on this particular item and make it a Level 60 drop instead of a Paragon one? |
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Post by woqued on Aug 5, 2016 4:33:30 GMT
On a separate note, would such a oppourtunity/potential inducing item where the idea of the item isn't to maximize meta powercreep potential be a good or a bad thing in a loot drop pool? I think this is a good thing for runs that are relatively easy to access/tag for most players. In fact, it might be cooler to slightly nerf this stats on this particular item and make it a Level 60 drop instead of a Paragon one? Yeah I actually considered that, but if the defensive capabilities of it are dropped it won't be wearable for those toons either, unless it provides something very specific so that it would serve a separate purpose. Randomized BURs would go too far ahead already, and they're very common. How would you drop the stats? To me, thanks to randomized BUR gear, it would actually be a legit Abyss pt3 boss chest drop as it is. It'd be stronger than many of the current drops, but it wouldn't be the most sought after item next to Wrap of Dark Prince or Eko gloves or some Than3 sets... Only the 10 -> 14% physical portion of this item screams "PARAGON ITEM!", actually looks very much like a weak vestige, doesn't it? Looking at the defensive capabilities of this item on a second glance, it would be quite... Impossible to wear in paragon areas (so for a paragon drop.. seems weak no matter the fun purpose) as it stands with current gear. Set items are needed to cover important misc imms in Limbo and losing the potential augslot or the stat+overall imm coverage from Asmo gloves is not affordable at least as it stands currently, XR gear might change that but that is quite far in the future and hard to estimate. So basically it could potentially just be left as it is, perhaps lower down the physicals to 10% and send it on its way to lvl 60 tier unless buffed; if buffed, how? I keep coming back to those "add cool misc imms to every item to make them wearable and ease gearing yaaay!" <- sucks, decreases value of certain items too much, even if it allowed more gearing options by helping by not pigeon-holing players to wearing a specific item for all the tasty misc imms, and rather have option to wear gloves -or- helmet instead of just helmet. Potential buffing options: Thematic -> buff reflex saves, dex checks Helpful -> immunities (ONE max, would need to drop other stats slightly probably) to debilitating effects whether it be instakill or stun/confusion Helpful2 -> ESF:Listen / SF:Listen / Listen skill bonus; the augmenter saver for those minmaxing toon potential this is a must have. EditHelpful3 -> Lots of Saves vs <Debilitating Effects>; considering many sets / XRs have these effects and burs have as randomized property, having more of these would make these types of stats less of a troll stat and actually usable; as it stands they aren't common enough to properly take advantage of, as opposed to being immune to 1s as well by being completely immune by simply covering immunities. Or demotion to: LVL 60 Item. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 20:31:39 GMT
Yeah, quite difficult choices here. I think that adding specific immunities is tempting, since there really should be more options available. Having said that, adding useful specific immunities would just turn this into a top-tier item already, with dual-wielding freebies tacked on - not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing though. Adding ESF is attractive, as you said SF+ESF Listen in particular is cool as an easy placeholder until an augmenter is acquired (those things are damn expensive). But it also seems a bit weak for a Paragon Set to be acting as a placeholder for a good BUR+AUG. Possible option is to simply add more useful SF+ESF's onto the item, notably Parry, Craft Weapon and maybe even Craft Armor, making it an 'all-in-one' item for those handy Augmenter slots that are otherwise hard to fit. This would fit nicely with the 'skilled warrior' theme of granting dual-wielding feats, and *might* make it a full-time wearable item for certain classes instead of just a dual-wielding swap. The inclusion of Craft Armor and Parry (which doesn't have a UR augmenter granting ESF) also lets the items be situationally useful for non-tanks. Adding saves is a great idea, not sure which specific ones would be best though. I'm even getting a knee-jerk 'too strong!' reaction to adding 4x SF/ESF's onto one item, but convinced myself that it's reasonable with: 1) this is a Paragon item, 2) the immunities are relatively low, 3) there's no randomization/augmentation potential, and 4) various BUR items already have multiple ESF's on them ( Scintillating Scarf, Helm of Zeal, Visor of Vigilance). In fact I still don't know how much demand the item would have with all these additions, but it's probably a step in the right direction. Needs more discussion/input from others for sure. With all that said, making it a Level 60 option opens it up to the rest of the server which will certainly have more players happy to dual-wield. I can easily imagine some of the more casual players building a toon around this item, so perhaps that is the nicer way to go in terms of maximising utility server-wide. |
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