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Post by chirality on Sept 1, 2016 4:48:09 GMT
ppl was all like "i'm waiting for limbo" Acaos was all like "yo dawg, i heard u like limbo so we put a limbo in ur limbo so u can limbo while u limbo" What happened? Gotta be pretty depressing for devs to work hard at releasing content that was zomg demanded by oldnubz to repopulate the server, and then have nobody gaf. ggwp, lulz
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Post by somes on Sept 1, 2016 8:48:42 GMT
Well, the same thing happened with Abyss lol. I would have focused on rebalancing all the classes to lower pressure of needing cores while not changing the difficulty of runs, but the devs use their own free time and I admit that this idea has its contentions. I think players will have more freedom to play what they want while the harder runs get completed, including Limbo.
I hope to attempt both legs of Limbo during the Christmas time, either with DT or other people.
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Post by louisvilleslugger on Sept 1, 2016 20:23:00 GMT
I don't disagree, Bale. The question I'd like to discuss is "why" this is true (without flaming anyone).
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Post by tank on Sept 1, 2016 21:04:37 GMT
because it was promised forever, always being a lie on actual release date. and when it was finally released the server had no population
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Post by drunkenboastor on Sept 1, 2016 23:31:14 GMT
There is to much unknown about any new area released. Giving the players some information about the creatures they are encountering would go a long way to make it less overwhelming of an experience.
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Post by tank on Sept 2, 2016 3:11:31 GMT
There is to much unknown about any new area released. Giving the players some information about the creatures they are encountering would go a long way to make it less overwhelming of an experience. I guess this works in a much lower pop / more casual environment. typically its fun for players to go in and learn things on their own, and those players can share that information if they wish instead of the dev team
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Post by Paradoom on Sept 2, 2016 9:44:32 GMT
Biggest downer for me is that you get basically punished doubletime for going in a large group. You go in there with like 5 ppl. demi shackled and you end up with the same loot/canopics as a 10 man full powered one. But the later group has to face a challenge that is beyond comparison and you do not even get the slightest bonus from it. I mean 6 canopics after 3 hours of running... and loot that I find in the desert, litteraly!
And don`t get me wrong: scalling the mobs and encounters similar like in oinous to match a party is great work, but an adjustment that goes 80+ instead of reflecting lvl 65 (as limbo is supposed to be) and then not scalling the loot the same way is a fail.
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Post by Matt on Sept 2, 2016 11:46:56 GMT
There is to much unknown about any new area released. Giving the players some information about the creatures they are encountering would go a long way to make it less overwhelming of an experience. Would be cool to implement some kinda knowledge in the form of maybe "lore books" from places like the abyss. After all, people aren't going to Limbo until they've managed the previous endgame areas. Although this would take some dev time. If there is some mob/limbo info somewhere from the devs i could probably write up something like this or even just add it to the wiki so people can learn it a bit faster. Currently the run takes too long for the rewards and required a pretty good group to even manage. This is all real hard to balance, make it easier for small groups and only small groups would go. Make it easier for large groups, and people would take more bots etc... The only other way i see this run being done more, is if some of the veterans (DT's, Untouchables etc...) spent many hours doing the run, logging everything and sharing it with the public. Although that would take quite a while and i doubt anyone wants to share their found knowledge with outsiders. I'd like to see some Limbo runs posted on the forums, that seems about the only way to try and organize it, considering the timescale of it. That way, i could also manage to help out instead of just having the chance of spotting the call on the dash.
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Post by tank on Sept 2, 2016 12:17:28 GMT
i'm pretty sure woqu already shared info on the wiki about limbo
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 15:21:51 GMT
In many MMOs, you wipe and pay some meager repair fee, go back to the boss and try again. Here? You or some other team member might lose that prized item that's hard to replace and you don't want to play for 24 hours, plus with limited rests you can't exactly retry the individual encounter over and over until you learn more about the mobs and what strategies work.
Yes it can be difficult, but it becomes also quite time consuming, where most of your time consumed is not actually learning new stuff, but rather forming new runs and re-clearing old encounters just to get up to that wipe point.
Not trying to start a full blown comparison, but there's a steep time risk involved in trying to learn more about the encounters.
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Post by tank on Sept 2, 2016 15:38:23 GMT
there is, but even so, all the information we have so far has been trial and error from players in the past
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Post by woqued on Sept 2, 2016 17:07:26 GMT
Upsides: the theme of the party was amazing and it was thrown in a nice setting. The party also had kickass hosting, and plenty of topics to talk about for those so inclined. Lots of excitement and a hint of extreme sports to induce adrenaline rush - and plenty of new toys and the coolest toys ever! (But only for the regulars). Lots of variety, this party will not be the same when re-visited. There is a very strict dress-code: wear the right set of clothes, else you will be kicked out unless you're particularly persistent and careful about your approach near the bouncers; and your group of friends needs to be colour-coded. Nobody told you beforehand what the dress-code is; be prepared.
Downsides: The party kicked everyone in the nuts and served beer & biscuits for one visitor in 15, and if every one of your friends brought their +1 the drinking games go from sketchy to downright nasty. There is a very strict dress-code: wear the right set of clothes, else you will be kicked out unless you're particularly persistent and careful about your approach near the bouncers; and your group of friends needs to be colour-coded. Nobody told you beforehand what the dress-code is; be prepared. They also serve trap beer - even if you get your beer and biscuits after waiting in line for four hours, it can be rotten inside. Refunds only if there were almonds in the biscuits. Last but not least, the hosts are busy people and as such they will leave the party in time, due to pursuing better parties of their own, and perhaps host another party sometime soon; but no pre-order tickets for these parties.
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Post by woqued on Sept 2, 2016 17:14:56 GMT
Biggest downer for me is that you get basically punished doubletime for going in a large group. You go in there with like 5 ppl. demi shackled and you end up with the same loot/canopics as a 10 man full powered one. But the later group has to face a challenge that is beyond comparison and you do not even get the slightest bonus from it. I mean 6 canopics after 3 hours of running... and loot that I find in the desert, litteraly! And don`t get me wrong: scalling the mobs and encounters similar like in oinous to match a party is great work, but an adjustment that goes 80+ instead of reflecting lvl 65 (as limbo is supposed to be) and then not scalling the loot the same way is a fail. There is a slightest bonus; big party does get more loot than a small one. The problem is that it is a slightest bonus, and there are so many so scary so tanky mobs in so many maps. Also, 3 hours of running is only at the beginning. You didn't master Abyss on your first trip there, why should you master Limbo? Limbo pt1 is perfectly possible to complete in 1 hour after getting used to. Though I would agree the oppourtunity cost of this is too extreme. And Limbo does indeed have higher rewards in the long run, however that proverbial long run is indeed too long; and the Limbo as a run (pt2) is too long as well for most players. Massive maps, Massive amounts of mobs, and most of them kick you in the nards, unless you know the secret handshake.
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Post by chirality on Sept 2, 2016 17:59:04 GMT
Well, the same thing happened with Abyss lol. No? Abyss runs dropped in frequency and popularity in the years since release, because the server population became more and more comprised of nubs. What happened is that most abyss-runners stopped playing several years ago, and no one stepped up to fill their shoes. I would have focused on rebalancing all the classes to lower pressure of needing cores while not changing the difficulty of runs When people qq about cores and class balance, we all know they really mean "I want to play a tank". It is, in fact, what the whole core hate is all about, especially in recent years with influx of newer players that are too intimidated and/or lazy to learn/enjoy "cores" (btw, I wonder if things would have evolved differently if instead of "cores" they were just called 'OP classes"?). People want to play tanks, not casters, because they refuse to lern2play. That's fine; we've seen for years how insistence on playing tanks and insistence to never l2p has turned the game into a deadzone of newbs playing pre-endgame content. Ever since most serious players were driven off by poor administrative decisions and poor administrative treatment (based on the assumption that new players would replace old ones--demonstrably a mistaken theory, since players have neither been replaced in terms of commitment nor simple numbers), the game has consistently lacked a population willing to devote themselves to doing anything hard unless they're dragged by people who already invested time in learning the game on the "core" classes that newbs love to hate. Mentioning tank v caster in regards to Limbo brings the point of Limbo being designed (successfully, imo) to twist the old paradigm and grant tanks a "core" role: they're desirable, needed, and form the core of a party. What's more, I didn't even touch things like 2h% (and PL-granted build options) which seriously improve the lot of tanks in terms of power and balance-vs-casters. Lowering pressure of needing "cores" and allowing people to play what they want to play (again, that really means playing tanks, amirite) makes little sense in the context of Limbo, given that it indeed shifted the paradigm. Here's Limbo, the thing that rebalanced classes and lowered pressure of needing cores. But it's 2hard (((( The problem for people willing to play Limbo is that the time investment isn't balanced properly with the return; the problem for people unwilling to play Limbo is that they never lerned2play old endgame content in the first place, because they just want to play poorly-built tanks, so ironically the content that finally makes tanks desirable remains out-of-reach for these tank-centric core-clueless (aka game-clueless) players because they are only capable of playing tanks in pre-edngame zones. Derp. The two reasons Limbo is dead--and HG is dying--are: 1) too many serious players driven away by years of poor decisions/neglect; 2) too few serious players acquired to replace them. Casual players do not endgame runners make, and the module is not built to cater to players unwilling to devote themselves to mastery (but rather the opposite).
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Post by woqued on Sept 2, 2016 18:17:20 GMT
Well, the same thing happened with Abyss lol. No? Abyss runs dropped in frequency and popularity in the years since release, because the server population became more and more comprised of nubs. What happened is that most abyss-runners stopped playing several years ago, and no one stepped up to fill their shoes. I would have focused on rebalancing all the classes to lower pressure of needing cores while not changing the difficulty of runs [Flames even if roast is warranted] Mentioning tank v caster in regards to Limbo brings the point of Limbo being designed (successfully, imo) to twist the old paradigm and grant tanks a "core" role: they're desirable, needed, and form the core of a party. What's more, I didn't even touch things like 2h% (and PL-granted build options) which seriously improve the lot of tanks in terms of power and balance-vs-casters. [Flames even if roast is warranted] The two reasons Limbo is dead--and HG is dying--are: 1) too many serious players driven away by years of poor decisions/neglect; 2) too few serious players acquired to replace them. Casual players do not endgame runners make, and the module is not built to cater to players unwilling to devote themselves to mastery (but rather the opposite). Outkast said no flames! Myup. Limbo is better balanced than any other zone in the game - and very suited for tanks, though cores are still quite mandatory. But it is indeed very hard and the trouble/reward ratio is not there, as including run formation; its hard, people need to have the right toons with the right tools, and repeat that one small run that is part of a module of an old game to be rewarded with anything that isn't the sense of novelty from the run or enjoyment of the (imo) best run in the game on-par with Gaping Maw pt1/pt3 (in terms of challenge/being interesting/beautiful/well balanced spawns and duties for a variety of toons); but as a game that keeps going off looting shinies or tagging it's a bit misplaced sadly, the fate of Gaping Maw as well is to be run only when tag is needed due to poor loot at the end. Limbo however does not reward you for tagging so there we go. The oppourtunity cost for doing Limbo is simply too high. To be fair though, pug groups completed the run(pt1) with a mess of a strategy, though it took forever. Reasons why they never returned would be interesting to discuss.
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