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Post by Raj on Aug 6, 2018 18:47:29 GMT
How to calculate saves: Base save + epic/legendary/paragon progression + relevant stat mod + magic bonus + feats In our case base saves are straightforward, f/r/w as a cleric are 12/6/12; svirfneblin build splashes 1 ranger pre-epic so 13/6/11. +10 to all in epics, +1 every 4 legendary and paragon levels. Lvl 60 relevant stats with +14 items (usual 1st benchmark) are (for the 3 builds) 26/24/24 CON, 30/28/28 DEX, 66/69/70 WIS (20/23/24 base + 10 pre-LL lvlup, +10 LL, +10 great wis, +2 artifact and +14 items), that means a stat mod ((stat-10)/2) of +8/7/7 fortitude, +10/9/9 reflex, +18/19/20 will. At lvl 80 with double demi god bonus and +16 items (2nd-final benchmark) those stats improve by 8 points total, for a +4 to all. Magic bonus means +universal saves from items, capped at +20. Pretty easy to max it already with lvl 40 gear and never have to bother with it anymore. On HG, specific saving throw bonus (+f/r/w) stacks beyond that (+25 cap) and 'very' specific saving throw bonus (e.g. saves vs death/fear/chaos/spells/traps...) stack up to +30, but before aquiring XR loot that's only obteinable with lucky randomization and usually ignored for standard build calculations. So let say +20 to all and call it a day. Feats: usually on caster builds none. Here the OP took epic reflex for a build that has still room for improvements and is probably running Hells hence might be annoyed by stuff like stygian spider webs, so +4 to reflex. Those are not 'final builds' by any means so I'm not calling it a waste. This means the build(s) should have, at level 60: Svirfneblin 13+10+5+08+20 = 56 fort 06+10+5+10+20+4 = 55 reflex 11+10+5+18+20 = 64 will Fallen Angel 12+10+5+07+20 = 54 fort 06+10+5+09+20+4 = 54 reflex 12+10+5+19+20 = 66 will Half Celestial 12+10+5+07+20 = 54 fort 06+10+5+09+20 = 50 reflex 12+10+5+20+20 = 67 will Add +9 to all in order to calculate level 80 saves (+5 from levels, +4 from higher stats). Half-Celestial ends with 63/59/76 saves, and generally speaking cleric builds (who can always spare a greater restoration for themselves) have effective +1/6 to all saves due to not being affected by hell+ layer penalities, so those are pretty fine saving throws for a spellcaster without sacrificing efficiency.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2018 22:42:43 GMT
I'm not really buying that. Many Sorcerer and Wizard builds don't sacrifice feats or caster levels to get higher AC or higher saves. The creator of this build sacrificed a level for Monk in order to get AC and sacrificed a Legendary feat to get Epic Reflexes. Obviously, the builder was thinking about those things. I'd just like to see the results and the reasons for those choices. The build could skip Monk and reflex save and go full caster or improve the saves to be fully protected. Hi Mudeye, I made the original build. It's worth noting that the final "Version 3" build is indeed a pure Cleric with no save feats as you suggest. This is because it uses the BUR Half-Celestial subrace - you'll find that without that subrace such a build is a little harder to pull off. Why Epic Reflexes?The short answer as to why Versions 1+2 take Epic Reflexes is that there isn't anything significantly better to take. It has already maxed out Evo/Div/Necro/Wis/Spell Pen, the only caster feat left to take would be LSF Enchantment, or an SF in a new school... which would add very little. Out of the remaining available feats, I feel +4 Reflex is one of the most useful - was there a particular feat that you had your eye on? Note that with Half-Celestial, the subrace's bonus feats mean you get 3 spare feats instead of 1, which lets you take an extra ESF instead (usually in Abjuration). Why Monk splash?This is a harder question to answer; they both have pros and cons and ultimately turn out similar enough either way. I think pure is definitely better *IF* you use Half-Celestial (and thus have ESF Abjuration which lets you pump up the AC on your Tower Shield), but if you are using an Open/UR race the decision isn't so clear-cut. I think pure has more power if you have the skills to pull it off, but splash can be slightly more forgiving for new players (the target of this thread) - at the end of the day, it's important not to die. Splash gives you some extra AC/Discipline to work with, with the minor bonuses of Evasion (neat in pre-Hell areas) and being slag-immune (though slag has been nerfed significantly since posting the build). You can also wear Wrap of Raphael for +1 DC to Heartbane (which is extra strong because it's a double-save spell). You do lose +1 Spell Penetration and +1 save-drop from Battletide but in my experience, even 'decent' Cleric players don't use Battletide to its full potential. Pure also gets higher immunities so the defense difference isn't huge. TL;DR - I think the Monk splash is more forgiving for newbies using an Open/UR race; more confident players can go pure instead. My own Open-subrace Cleric was a pure Drow with 5 or 6 CON, but I thought I'd post something more suitable for fresh newbies.
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Post by chainlink on Aug 7, 2018 7:07:44 GMT
The other thing to take into account, which you will probably not have come across yet unless you've been to some of the Legendary Level areas, are ability checks, these bypass the whole saves routine and directly check against a particular stat Str, Con, Dex, Int, Wis, Cha, if you fail the check you apply the effect. See wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Ability_Checks for more information.
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Post by nabuch on Sept 15, 2018 11:03:25 GMT
Hi im folowing Version #3 BUR i have paragon SF necro and divination and paragon spell penetration same in the build but i cant chose paragon spell knowledge according to the guide. Why ?
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Post by Enius the White on Sept 15, 2018 15:05:18 GMT
Have you grabbed the epic spell token for the respective school? IIRC, you may need that to access the paragon spell.
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Post by chainlink on Sept 16, 2018 8:14:26 GMT
Have you grabbed the epic spell token for the respective school? IIRC, you may need that to access the paragon spell. Correct
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Post by nabuch on Sept 18, 2018 10:33:07 GMT
Ooooohhh yea its working now thx!
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Post by thenut68 on Mar 22, 2021 1:42:52 GMT
Is there anything I could drop to get meta empowered spells?
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Post by chainlink on Mar 22, 2021 7:43:16 GMT
Two Great Wisdom is is the simplest choice.
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Post by woqued on Mar 22, 2021 9:52:35 GMT
Is there anything I could drop to get meta empowered spells? On which version of the build, on high lvl/demi character? Dropping Epic Reflexes is the move if you don't play around in hells a lot anymore and have access to Seren already, or intend to reincarnate before dabbling too much in spiniarch/icespider layers. If it's the Half-Celestial build, drop PSF:Evoc for it.
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