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Post by desocupado on Oct 12, 2016 11:24:31 GMT
Thanks for the clarification on the random part (so a high demi would have about 100% chance of a random all the time).
The idea on having everyone to get automatic dropped tokens was to make everyone know they are really getting more tokens at once comparing the 5p and 10p party size.
I supposed a x0 cleric multibox with Erradicate, Serepdipeus and Aegis could be really handy. Bonus points if he is used to throw extended CL 60 gr.
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Post by chainlink on Oct 12, 2016 13:33:05 GMT
I agree with pretty much all of the previous comments. I've only been there a few times myself and only successfully completed part 1. Limbo must be similar to what the creatures in most of the other LL areas feel like when a party of adventurers descends on them with instakill/disable spells flying all over the place and damn near unkillable tanks beating the living daylights out of whats left standing. Unlike just about much all of the other LL runs Limbo gives no headroom for badly equipped (or badly played characters) and they will end up repeatedly dead and by this cause significant problems for the rest of the party as people who are rezzing are vulnerable and non-effective themselves, which effectively means taking newer players there is almost certainly a suicide mission. It's pretty much a necessity to have at least one cleric type with Erradicate in case you get one of the damn near unkillable creatures or one that causes massive AoE KB of a type nobody currently has any immunity/resistance to therefore decimating the party whilst you attampt to figure out what or what not to do to it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2016 19:33:35 GMT
To be frank, I feel that the points raised in your post tend strongly towards hyperbole and most of them can be explained primarily by: I've only been there a few times myself Every endgame run in the module is difficult with a level-appropriate party of first-timers, and Limbo is no exception. Far too many players have declared the run as "too hard!" after walking in once or twice and leaving before they attempt to learn the run. In my opinion, Saving Pelor is a significantly harder run than Limbo-P1 (for a typical endgame party today with knowledge of both runs).And yet Saving Pelor is done today, and was even intended to be done without Paragon Levels! The underlying issue today is simply a lack of knowledge, combined with a general lack of skill on the server as I mentioned in a separate post: The server's response to Limbo has been an unquestionable demonstration of today's lower skill levels - the average endgame player has gotten used to Paragon power and being able to muscle their way through runs with minimal finesse. Even supposed 'veterans' are sorely lacking in the skills required for level-appropriate endgame runs, and it really shows. Limbo must be similar to what the creatures in most of the other LL areas feel like when a party of adventurers descends on them with instakill/disable spells flying all over the place and damn near unkillable tanks beating the living daylights out of whats left standing. I think saying that it *MUST* be similar to other areas is a bit strong. Why? Core dominance and tanks feeling useless have been highlighted issues for years, and Limbo hits the balance much better than any other area in the game; a diverse party of tanks AND cores is the most effective, just as it should be. I am primarily a core-player (I had ABCD toons all close to Level 80 before I picked up my first primary tank toon), but even I find the relatively high SR of Limbo to be a breath of fresh air in an otherwise ~stale meta-game. Unlike just about much all of the other LL runs Limbo gives no headroom for badly equipped (or badly played characters) It's true that Limbo is quite harsh on gear requirements, but I think LLs are too if they are done the 'intended way' (great example is the Mord Immunity ring dropping at the *end* of the Desert). Most of the critical gear for Limbo drops in Level 60 areas (Elysium/Aboleths/Abyss), which is probably how it should be... but perhaps the best solution would be some extra sets with the required immunities being added as Level 55-60 set drops? And in terms of 'badly played characters'... why *should* Limbo give headroom for them? It's supposed to be the toughest area in the game. taking newer players there is almost certainly a suicide mission. How difficult should Paragon areas be for 'new players'? I see the endgame as a smooth progression of Hell -> Abyss -> Limbo, where you master one and then move onto the next. I think that Limbo-P1's difficulty is appropriate for players who have mastered the Abyss, but the problem is that most people haven't (~80% of the endgame population has only learned the *basics* of Shallow Hells). Is the solution then to make Limbo's difficulty comparable to the Abyss? That seems illogical. It's pretty much a necessity to have at least one cleric type with Erradicate in case you get one of the damn near unkillable creatures To be blunt, this is just laziness/lack of experience. I'm sure someone who blindly rolled into Shedaklah once or twice would say the same about an Elite Alkilith (especially if they're trying to beat it down with an Acid Warhammer), except Eradicate wasn't even around in those Level 60 days. Demi-shackling was also specifically introduced to allow players to tone down on Paragons if they wish. one that causes massive AoE KB of a type nobody currently has any immunity/resistance to therefore decimating the party whilst you attampt to figure out what or what not to do to it. You are most likely referring to Kaorti Alienist here, a mob which had it's AoE KB changed to Personal KB within a week of Limbo's release (there was a lot of hot-patching in the first few days/weeks). I think this only highlights the fact that most of these issues stem from lack of exposure; you've literally not been there in the last 5 months! ----- Moving forward, from various posts (mostly in chirality's flame-bait thread) I have now been convinced that a little more spoon-feeding is required for Limbo; evidently woqued's *very* detailed notes on the Wiki have been insufficient for most 'endgame veterans' to feel comfortable experimenting in Limbo. I've just finished my initial exam block (OSCEs) so I'll try to make a post with some focused advice in the next few days, along with adding some extra Open Subrace builds.
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Post by Bad on Oct 13, 2016 0:51:54 GMT
I would try adding loot to Limbo as a way to get more players to go there.
Currently the run feels like it is using Desert Loot tables or possibly none at all.
As a suggestion for item creation, I would use current URs and BURs boosted by up to +20 ac 40-55 soaks (effectively asmo gear level) and then randomized etc. Take the current Burs and URs bump them 15-20% or so then make them drop at about the abyss drop rate with canopics as a kicker.
Then you would get nightly Limbo runs (How do I know this for sure? Because players would be excited to go there and I would happily lead the runs that take them there).
As a gold sink, have all this uber gear drop set to True Neutral and Outsider restricted because of Limbo's overall alignment and location thus people would need to be very choosy about which gear to forge so that they could use it. Forging Limbo gear would clear most of the extra gold from the server as it would be very pricey.
The way to get people to go there is to have rewards equal to the challenge. Your player base is not stupid they can see when a run is not worth the effort.
Also I would consider asking for more actual player input for the creation of new runs and gear, they want to help make this server the best it can be.
Bad
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Post by woqued on Oct 13, 2016 1:45:41 GMT
I would try adding loot to Limbo as a way to get more players to go there. Currently the run feels like it is using Desert Loot tables or possibly none at all. As a suggestion for item creation, I would use current URs and BURs boosted by up to +20 ac 40-55 soaks (effectively asmo gear level) and then randomized etc. Take the current Burs and URs bump them 15-20% or so then make them drop at about the abyss drop rate with canopics as a kicker. Then you would get nightly Limbo runs (How do I know this for sure? Because players would be excited to go there and I would happily lead the runs that take them there). As a gold sink, have all this uber gear drop set to True Neutral and Outsider restricted because of Limbo's overall alignment and location thus people would need to be very choosy about which gear to forge so that they could use it. Forging Limbo gear would clear most of the extra gold from the server as it would be very pricey. The way to get people to go there is to have rewards equal to the challenge. Your player base is not stupid they can see when a run is not worth the effort. Also I would consider asking for more actual player input for the creation of new runs and gear, they want to help make this server the best it can be. Bad Uhm. Many if not most of the set items in Limbo are player-input produced. There was a whole sub-forum dedicated for this and it worked while they had time to work on it. Player input was taken very directly regarding Limbo - including hotfixes and all that. There is no way to criticize the devs on this part. You are free to go make suggestions on the sub-forum HERE. If anything, there should simply be more set drops and locations for them(Team AcaFunky was working on Minibosses that would possibly drop set drops as well if I understood correctly, before they ran out of fuel). If there was a way to rerandomize or de-randomize XR items with Limbo Secrets the loot would already be godlike since there are so many secret drops from Limbo. The XR items are insanely strong, have you looked at the subwiki? They are 40 soaks and go up to +19 ac, and are bumped around the percentages you suggest (even more - and even vastly more with randomization included). That loot is in the game already via canopics f you get lucky. There are trap drops. But the potential is almost too strong with some of the items, and not needed for Limbo pt1 easy/hard or pt2 non-hard at least. Abyss drop rate with canopics as a kicker would be insane. No need to make a whole new set of loot; could just improve the droprates a tad which has been asked in multiple threads already. Also, Limbo is less scary offensively than has been made out to be; set gear from Abyss and Abos is the key, and reading logs and going slow at first. .. But yeah, there have been many posts about the rewarding factor of Limbo and consensus seems to be that it doesn't feel rewarding enough. I know it doesn't for me. However, your requests seem over the top. Learning the run is imperative rather than having beyond godlike cheat toons with 20 ac 40 soak gear with ele immunities covered to 200%, needed esoterics at 30%+, needed exotics at 40%+ and all needed misc/spell immunities covered with +30 all saves. Sounds OP right? It would be reality if XR gear was common. It would be completely and utterly gamebreaking, and as such it is understandable they take some precautions with the loot changes. However, as I mentioned before, the consensus is that the current loot drop system isn't enough to approach it even if it's the most enjoyable and balanced run in the game... So something should be changed.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2016 1:51:39 GMT
I would try adding loot to Limbo as a way to get more players to go there. Then you would get nightly Limbo runs (How do I know this for sure? Because players would be excited to go there and I would happily lead the runs that take them there). The way to get people to go there is to have rewards equal to the challenge. I agree - making the run *feel* rewarding is the #1 change that I would like to see. Currently the run feels like it is using Desert Loot tables or possibly none at all. This observation does not line up with my experiences at all. Out of curiosity, how many runs have you actually been on/completed to be making this claim? As a suggestion for item creation, I would use current URs and BURs boosted by up to +20 ac 40-55 soaks (effectively asmo gear level) and then randomized etc. Take the current Burs and URs bump them 15-20% or so then make them drop at about the abyss drop rate with canopics as a kicker. Aren't these basically XRs? If your suggestion is to boost XR acquisition-rate significantly then I certainly agree, and it was one of the points in the original post. As a gold sink, have all this uber gear drop set to True Neutral and Outsider restricted because of Limbo's overall alignment and location thus people would need to be very choosy about which gear to forge so that they could use it. Forging Limbo gear would clear most of the extra gold from the server as it would be very pricey. This is not a good idea because it is a *forced* gold sink. Not everyone who plays Limbo fits into the 'old vet with hordes of Abyss gold stored from years ago' category. I certainly don't. Also I would consider asking for more actual player input for the creation of new runs and gear, they want to help make this server the best it can be. See The Set Loot Project. ---
EDIT: Okay looks like woqued beat me to the (much more thoroughly and well-said) post!
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Post by chirality on Oct 13, 2016 2:19:39 GMT
well i'm not trying to troll, really, but here's my thoughts tbh taken by surprise with the pseudo-XR loot idea...and the request to ask for player input...heh? and especially the gold sink mention it's hard to accept that the answer to limbo popularity would be handing people uber XR-just-not-in-name loot that only the richest of the rich can afford to wear (which is what the idea quite literally implies, as opposed to figuratively as is the case with XRs). i dunno if the random loot drops are all so bad (i was on plenty of deep hells and p3s where the lootsplit might have been straight from desert too) but i could understand if people were disappointed (but should be more about canopics and XRs anyway right?) and the xp:time ratio is pretty weak as well (not like that matters tbh, i mean PLs have been out for what half a decade now and there's prolly more 80s in vet vaults atm than there are 60s in newb vaults) but it really feels like limbo is supposed to be motivated by "boredom with old runs" + "desire for XRs" so it seems weird that people aren't doing limbo cuz they aren't getting enuff dank BUR lewtz. otoh if it truly is the case then that's kinda sad, but i guess it means that as a whole HG just isn't ready yet for limbo cuz there's still so much to do in the old content--that's not sarcasm, and maybe it's a good thing cuz if every vet had no more incentive left to do old runs, then anyone without a vault of x7 multi-prince-winners would be SoL, so it's great for both new players and vets that didn't zomgconquer hells/abyss that these runs are still in demand i'm pretty sure limbo would get a lot easier and lose the whole 2hard label with just people going out to play there and learning it and building momentum until it becomes as second-nature as any other run became after it stopped being brand-new scary territory. it's been said enough that the rewards don't feel commensurate with the time expenditure (p1ez > p2ez, p1hard = not enuff), so it is what it is. but in the meantime, it can't hurt for people to play while waiting for an update, not avoid it and make it seem like they have better things to do after years of "3 more days" jokes. like funky has said in other threads about the subject, the best way to ensure a change happens, and ensure the *right* change happens, is to play more limbo and give convincing feedback. imo there's been enough feedback atm to at least give credit to the claim that canopics are too sparse (esp. in a large party), and that sheer slogginess of p2 is both unattractive and less rewarding than multiple p1s, but considering that feedback came from a handful of players and afaik most people that played limbo only did it a handful of times, there's prolly quite a bit more to do before funky's convinced that delivering XRs faster and easier wouldn't be a fatal mistake. power creep is already at an absolutely insane level, which is obviously why Funky wanted to play XRs as close to the chest as possible and ensure that they'd remain as rare as possible for as long as possible--once the cat's out of the bag you can't go back, and once XRs start becoming common, history will repeat itself like we already saw happen, and players will start complaining about lack of new content and how they're bored with Limbo and how Limbo is too easy (remember "Hells is too easy" threads?) and will start disappearing from the game all over again because there's nothing left to do. it's never been more clear that making a mistake by overshooting with XRs would be a coup de grace to an already-crippled game, and although i won't bother to search and quote atm, i'm pretty sure funky said as much as it's imperative for Limbo+XRs to hold HG over for what may be a long time. if people are feeling like XRs or pseudo-XRs are seriously required to beat Limbo, it's indicative that people haven't fully gotten on board w/ the fact (or perception anyway) that the run is a paradigm shift in terms of strategy/tactics vs older areas, as well as a radical shift for accepted status quo behavior for paragon-level hellrunners. most of these players are my elders but i really have to wonder what people would have said back in 2010 if players were coming back from abyss saying "yeah it's impossibly hard, you gotta have prince win/p3 setloot to survive there" or if word on the streetz was that you needed BURs and demi stats to beat hells. what makes limbo so different? the answer is that it's just out of comfort zone. how is a new player supposed to believe it when a vet tells them "you don't need a BUR sub, it's just a luxury and we beat hells with open races and UR gear" if he reads the same player claiming that they need limbo loot to beat limbo? not sure why more of a gold sink is really required, considering the entire "issue" of Limbo for the average player is that the run is too hard, and the people with huge piles of gold already have forging BURs and buying augs to accomplish that; i think there was a lot of gold at one time, just like BURs subraces, but players with deep-running careers that don't date back to 2008 or 2010 prolly aren't HG tycoons who have nothing to do with all their decimal places. i think pretty regular complaints (aka seems like very few months) from average joe HGer about how impossibly-out-of-reach desirable aug prices are is a good indicator that the augshop is working just fine as a gold sink (since obviously the uber-rich are still buying what pulpa's selling). i don't see how extra gold or a new gold sink fits into Limbo issue at all tbh, it seems pretty much far left field to mention a need for new gold sink in the same sentence as increasing limbo popularity
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Post by Bad on Oct 13, 2016 4:48:18 GMT
Both you and Woque have wonderfully thought out posts, so why do so few players go there? I thought I knew the answer but obviously it must be something else? Maybe the smell Mr. Anderson? You asked, I gave a frank reply, if I am wrong then why don't people go there? If the loot is Uber where are the players?
You would think that if the loot was good and balanced, Limbo would be a nightly run.
I was on some of the first abyss runs and people would come back with tons of slag (The pre nerf alkaliths would slag 2-3 pieces of gear in no time), limboed gear etc. but they went back because the loot was worth it.
And the tons of gold paid for all the slag etc.
Last couple of times I went to Limbo we finished part 1 and I walked away with 3 to 5ish canopics, I do think that there were a couple of pieces of desert gear mixed with that and a couple of secrets, our group was searching all over in the hopes that there was loot somewhere in that place. After that I had a very tough time trying to get people excited to go back. Even with my 10 billion gold prize on the line people just felt like meh too much bs not enough reward.
Feel free to tell me how wrong I am, that's cool but that still leaves the puzzle of why don't more people run Limbo?
I am sure the next round of posts will have more folks telling me how wrong I am, but that will still leave you in the same place with the same question:
Why don't more people run Limbo. Hint: Its not the smell soooo it could be the loot drop rate.But after writing the above I came to the realization that the above is not really the question being asked but this whole post was started just as a Troll post looking to stir the pot, Sadly I fell for it. I think you guys were trolling for the following statement: The server due to its incredibly low population of quality players (Once you exclude players like Woque and Poly, who only like to run solo or in small groups.) is unable to form organic non Guild driven parties able to take on Limbo at its current difficulty? I think THAT was answer you were wanting to see. Due to my no feeding the trolls policy I think I am done with this thread. Bad I would try adding loot to Limbo as a way to get more players to go there. Then you would get nightly Limbo runs (How do I know this for sure? Because players would be excited to go there and I would happily lead the runs that take them there). The way to get people to go there is to have rewards equal to the challenge. I agree - making the run *feel* rewarding is the #1 change that I would like to see. Currently the run feels like it is using Desert Loot tables or possibly none at all. This observation does not line up with my experiences at all. Out of curiosity, how many runs have you actually been on/completed to be making this claim? As a suggestion for item creation, I would use current URs and BURs boosted by up to +20 ac 40-55 soaks (effectively asmo gear level) and then randomized etc. Take the current Burs and URs bump them 15-20% or so then make them drop at about the abyss drop rate with canopics as a kicker. Aren't these basically XRs? If your suggestion is to boost XR acquisition-rate significantly then I certainly agree, and it was one of the points in the original post. As a gold sink, have all this uber gear drop set to True Neutral and Outsider restricted because of Limbo's overall alignment and location thus people would need to be very choosy about which gear to forge so that they could use it. Forging Limbo gear would clear most of the extra gold from the server as it would be very pricey. This is not a good idea because it is a *forced* gold sink. Not everyone who plays Limbo fits into the 'old vet with hordes of Abyss gold stored from years ago' category. I certainly don't. Also I would consider asking for more actual player input for the creation of new runs and gear, they want to help make this server the best it can be. See The Set Loot Project. ---
EDIT: Okay looks like woqued beat me to the post!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2016 5:16:00 GMT
Both you and Woque have wonderfully thought out posts, so why do so few players go there? I thought I knew the answer but obviously it must be something else? Maybe the smell Mr. Anderson? You asked, I gave a frank reply, if I am wrong then why don't people go there? If the loot is Uber where are the players?
You would think that if the loot was good and balanced, Limbo would be a nightly run.
I was on some of the first abyss runs and people would come back with tons of slag (The pre nerf alkaliths would slag 2-3 pieces of gear in no time), limboed gear etc. but they went back because the loot was worth it.
And the tons of gold paid for all the slag etc.
Last couple of times I went to Limbo we finished part 1 and I walked away with 3 to 5ish canopics, I do think that there were a couple of pieces of desert gear mixed with that and a couple of secrets, our group was searching all over in the hopes that there was loot somewhere in that place. After that I had a very tough time trying to get people excited to go back. Even with my 10 billion gold prize on the line people just felt like meh too much bs not enough reward.
Feel free to tell me how wrong I am, that's cool but that still leaves the puzzle of why don't more people run Limbo?
I am sure the next round of posts will have more folks telling me how wrong I am, but that will still leave you in the same place with the same question:
Why don't more people run Limbo. Hint: Its not the smell soooo it could be the loot drop rate.But after writing the above I came to the realization that the above is not really the question being asked but this whole post was started just as a Troll post looking to stir the pot, Sadly I fell for it. I think you guys were trolling for the following statement: The server due to its incredibly low population of quality players (Once you exclude players like Woque and Poly, who only like to run solo or in small groups.) is unable to form organic non Guild driven parties able to take on Limbo at its current difficulty? I think THAT was answer you were wanting to see. Due to my no feeding the trolls policy I think I am done with this thread. Bad Read back over your post, then try and say that I'M trolling and you're not with a straight face (safe to assume those remarks were directed at me due to quoting my post and claiming that the entire thread was created to 'stir the pot' - absolutely not true). "Yeah, Poli, that guy who makes long feedback threads asking to increase the rewards from Limbo as an elaborate scheme to get people to admit they suck."
Claiming that 'the loot drop rate is the issue' is not new, and nobody directly disagreed with you. A very large part of my original post was indeed concerned with 'the run doesn't feel rewarding enough', and with no tagging bonus the reward incentive of Limbo is almost entirely based on loot. But your specific suggestions were extremely illogical (upgraded URs/BURs when XRs already exist?), would lead to extraordinary power creep (XRs with Abyss dropping frequency would entirely break the game) and unfairly harsh against Funky/Acaos (complaining that they need to consult players about items, when that is *exactly* what they did). Finally, is HG really ALL about the loot for it's die-hard fans? What happened to the joy of playing for the sense of exploration? I found Limbo loot mediocre from Day 1, but we still played out P1 and P2 just for the achievement and to experience the new content. As indicated in my original post, Limbo is clearly not suitable for full-time farming at the moment... but you would think that after YEARS of calling for new content ("we are sooo bored of crushing Level 60 runs with our Level 80 toons!") more players would at least check it out a few times for the experience, instead of charging back into the Abyss for Prince-Cycle-#100. I would argue that anyone who expressed interest in Limbo pre-release would be *obliged* to try it a few times, simply as a token of appreciation towards Funky/Acaos' hard work.
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Post by chainlink on Oct 13, 2016 7:24:07 GMT
I've been there a good few times including some of the test runs and I completely accept that its at the minute at least the end game area and should therefore be hard. I guess lack of runs in the area is somewhat indicative of the current set of players as when I'm on in the evenings (EU time) we regularly get from 1-3 Hell runs requested and occasionally an Abysss. Most people have characters that require these tags and not everybody has 5+ demi/5+ prince win characters that there's nothing else they need to do with so they will readily show up for one of these runs if they get called. I shouldn't really have mentioned badly played characters as that was going to light the blue touchpaper but I think Limbo requires an even more specific party composition than other LL areas potentially leading to exclusion. I'll happily show up for a Limbo run but based on past experience I won't do it unless I know I have several hours spare in my schedule.
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Post by woqued on Oct 13, 2016 12:39:54 GMT
*-Stuff-* But after writing the above I came to the realization that the above is not really the question being asked but this whole post was started just as a Troll post looking to stir the pot, Sadly I fell for it. I think you guys were trolling for the following statement: The server due to its incredibly low population of quality players (Once you exclude players like Woque and Poly, who only like to run solo or in small groups.) is unable to form organic non Guild driven parties able to take on Limbo at its current difficulty? I think THAT was answer you were wanting to see. Due to my no feeding the trolls policy I think I am done with this thread. Bad did you even read our posts? = / We have both made requests for the loot to be upgraded. In both our posts, it is said the problem is that you don't feel rewarded, and the "loot is low and even lower for a big group" was the starting point of the thread. Merely replied to your idea and why it might not be the best alternative as to how the loot should be made better. No trolling whatsoever, until you decided to take it as such.
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Post by Bad on Oct 14, 2016 0:27:36 GMT
Would like to say sorry to Poli I really think you are trying to help and I should have just left this thread to go where it will. So will not make anymore assumptions and see where this thread goes. With any luck maybe we will get a Limbo that feels rewarding out of this.
Bad
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Post by somes on Oct 14, 2016 0:34:22 GMT
Nice to see people apologizing and changing their minds based on arguments. Something a particular user on this forum could learn.
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Post by desocupado on Oct 14, 2016 0:40:27 GMT
Well Chiliarity make a good point about the powercreep - Maybe if limbo dropped only UR, BUR (in higher quantities than other areas) - perhaps including those elusive UR augs (maybe BUR ones too) - but canopics were restricted to race tags. Would this produce less power creep? People would play limbo to get races, and keep playing it to farm gear?
On a different direction, could a canopic system be used for UR gear?
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Post by condude on Oct 14, 2016 0:50:03 GMT
One option, similar to what Deso is saying, would be to radically increase the drop rate of URs and BURs in Limbo. Something like Hells tables moved up by one tier. E.g. Limbo BURs drop at the same rate as Hells URs etc. XRs can be kept the way they are. That way we'd create demand for Limbos: it's the best place to farm BURs, but not cheapen XRs.
This way, even failed Limbo runs should get some reasonable amount of loot, rather than a rather negligible amount.
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