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Post by desocupado on Oct 16, 2016 10:06:38 GMT
While derailing from 'High Yeld' Limbo Changes a few ideas popped: 1 - Make subrace books (UR/BUR) drop from specific runs at specific chances (formula and/or flat 100%) //Cania could use a 100% -(Poli) 2 - Have tag chains giving the ability to upgrade without a second book (Maybe immortal allows UR upgrades and Asmodeus allows BUR) 3 - Reset the reincarnation timer as a low subrace tier character completes a tag chain as per the above suggestion. If you have any other ideas, please manifest yourself.
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Post by chirality on Oct 17, 2016 16:25:25 GMT
The whole point of having guaranteed BUR subrace drops in Abyss/Aboleths is to provide incentive to NOT grind Hell over and over again like 95% of the population choose to do Hm, was that really the whole point in particular? I always assumed it was to provide more incentive to do those runs in general by making them feel more rewarding on a per/run basis--not to provide incentive do NOT do something else (but I'm not a developer). I mean yes, any incentive for run X is by necessity a disincentive for run Y (since we can only play 1 run at a time), but there's a subtle difference in feel there. After all, outside of %-based setloot, there wasn't much incentive to repeat/farm/grind those runs (tag for gear use; static drop setloot like cha arty being about the only guarantees; the rest is %chance bossdrops or random miniboss drops), so grinding those runs often felt rather lame since it's generally done to chase a certain piece or 3 of setloot and if you didn't get one then you didn't get much out of the run (not a great feeling, similar to the voiced disappointment with repeating Limbo for only a reward every 7 runs). I know you don't mean anything by it, but as a player who has ~85 hellruns left to complete before hitting x5 on all of 5 main toons (~95 hours and that's only tag runs, which comprise 30-50% of my hell play), it feels harsh to have grinding Hells "over and over again" treated with what could be perceived as disdain; after all 95% of the population hasn't x5 all, most, or even half of their main toons yet. Demihood is the #1 reward in the module, with entire endgame (excepting Abo/Ely) involving penalties that are only reduced by Hell cycles, and that's aside from the loot itself (which is peerless, in the case of Nessus, or always in demand, such as earlier sets). The combination of penalty amelioration + extremely strong stat bonuses + asmo artifact usage/drops is a quite potent one, and as discussed many times over the years, once you further add on a lot of tasty setloot while on the way, Hells is without question the most rewarding cycle, by a very large margin. I understand that for a player who has completed x3-5 demi iterations on their main/most cared about toons, Hells loses much of its appeal (especially since we spend so much time there just to attain multiple x5s in our vault in the first place), and I understand the feeling that non-Hells play (party formation/motivation) is held back, restricted, or stagnant due to so much focus on doing Hells by many players. However, naturally there's incentive for 95% of the population to choose to grind Hell over and over again--they want demi+asmo arti use to improve their toons' power in a way that no other run can provide; they want desirable Nessus setloot (secrets, PW), and they also care for the drops along the way (tia gear, pandect, min weap, grape, toolbelt to name a few). Devs could have Ely/Aby deposit 100$ into player's paypal account and that still wouldn't remove incentive to do ~100or more tagging hellruns before a player starts to feel satiated by the demi iterations in their vault. As for importance of demi iterations to endgame play, sure, I don't mean to claim that they are absolutely required or so important as to preclude doing runs without them. However, I will say that doing any run, especially deep, under meaningful (and especially high) penalties is simply not enjoyable, and having x3-5 toons is far more conducive to low-slog low-man deep runs, due to toons requiring less intensive party support (from BCD buffs)/midrun maintenance/gearing. I will also say that I've only tended to hear about how demi iterations are overvalued or "not as important as people make it seem for <insert Abyss/Limbo> " from players that already have completed high demi iterations on most or all of their main toons; and the rare few who played since early-mid 2000s and have spent countless hours doing hell runs with low-demi/low-power toons in low-power PUG-type parties, without contemporary level of power creep, tend to be pretty understanding of endless Hell cycles by most HGers, and tend not to begrudge anyone for feeling like "omgz i need x5 on my toons :**( " (rather, they try to helpfully indicate that it's not as dire predicament as x3 guy may think/have been led to believe, but nonetheless they don't fault x3guy for the dream). As a sidenote, don't forget that demi shackling is relatively new and I'm not sure the concept has fully been digested by the mass consciousness or the average player's thought process--without demi shackling, it simply was a very different climate in regards to low-demi toons in parties with high-demi toons, and more importantly to the point I'm making here, it simply was a very different climate in regards to smaller parties efficiently gaining demi tags and players "finishing up" their vaults (it's a lot more reasonable now for runs to be navigated at speed of weak paragon mob presence, by toons that are shackled yet retain more power, such as x0 wearing asmo arti) It's true that many players choose to repeat Hells over and over again not because they "need" it but because they feel more comfortable there, and/or are intimidated by Abyss/(now Limbo), and/or are more of a "casual" type than "push limits" hardcore HG nerds, and/or make a lot of toons and want to demi them up (as opposed to having 2-5 mains and focusing on conquering HG with them) which I think is the point you were trying to make, and that's totally understandable (HG endgame party formation held back by people refusing or choosing not to progress), but it doesn't really project anti-elitism or positive force to grit on on 95% of population for "choosing" to do Hells over and over again when it's a perfectly natural and understandable choice, since those 95% are players who don't progress as quickly and efficiently through demi iterations as the 5%. Again, I know you didn't mean the offhand comment in a negative way, or mean to "grit" on anyone, but it's hard to perceive any hell rant in a positive light when it seems like most people progress quite slowly (relative to top% leet vets) through the module, and take it as a given that they have dozens upon dozens of hellruns to accomplish before approaching the rest of the endgame--and again, I'm not saying this feeling is necessarily valid, but it is what it is, and it's a feeling that's unlikely to change without radically redoing entire demi/endgame structure, no matter how incentivized non-Hells runs become (carrots are nice but there's one flavor of carrot that overtakes all others, and that carrot tastes like tagging ness).
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Post by desocupado on Oct 17, 2016 17:57:21 GMT
I find the x5 cycles for both Hells and Abyss is sort of excessive for something character bound.
All that being said, people getting stuck in the whole demigod chain tag is something that was desirable when that was where people should be playing / striving for hell viable characters. With new "end game" areas this logic must be reevaluated.
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Post by drunkenboastor on Oct 17, 2016 18:54:10 GMT
Why is there an incentive needed to participate in areas that are regularly being beaten?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 19:33:06 GMT
The whole point of having guaranteed BUR subrace drops in Abyss/Aboleths is to provide incentive to NOT grind Hell over and over again like 95% of the population choose to do Hm, was that really the whole point in particular? I always assumed it was to provide more incentive to do those runs in general by making them feel more rewarding on a per/run basis--not to provide incentive do NOT do something else (but I'm not a developer). I mean yes, any incentive for run X is by necessity a disincentive for run Y (since we can only play 1 run at a time), but there's a subtle difference in feel there. This is just nitpicking over semantics. The context of my quote (which admittedly used strong wording) was me disagreeing with the suggestion that the new bonuses added to Abyss/Aboleths should be extended to Hell as well, because it seems to me that the bonuses were intended to make Abyss/Aboleths more attractive runs relative to Hell and thus encourage progression to the harder zones which people seem afraid of (as you said). I will also say that I've only tended to hear about how demi iterations are overvalued or "not as important as people make it seem for <insert Abyss/Limbo> " from players that already have completed high demi iterations on most or all of their main toons In fact I have *always* said this; until demi-shackling was introduced in late March this year, I held my entire vault at x2 (except for the Druid/Sorcerer, which were x3). I did a huge amount of helper runs over the December/January holidays playing 1-2 of these mid-demi ABCD toons and it was never an issue for me. Note that the first official Limbo P1/P2 runs were completed with me on a genuine x3 Druid, and later my Bard and Cleric both tagged P1 as genuine x2's. IMO 2H tanks are the only type that get large benefits from being x5, it's better for the group overall when most other classes are at a lower demi-count (whether through shackling or just by not tagging that far).
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Post by chirality on Oct 19, 2016 4:32:37 GMT
until demi-shackling was introduced in late March this year, I held my entire vault at x2 (except for the Druid/Sorcerer, which were x3). I did a huge amount of helper runs over the December/January holidays playing 1-2 of these mid-demi ABCD toons and it was never an issue for me. Note that the first official Limbo P1/P2 runs were completed with me on a genuine x3 Druid, and later my Bard and Cleric both tagged P1 as genuine x2's. IMO 2H tanks are the only type that get large benefits from being x5, it's better for the group overall when most other classes are at a lower demi-count (whether through shackling or just by not tagging that far). yet your main toons are atm x6 and 7s, so you did 4 more hell cycles that were unnecessary (by your own definition?), doesn't that speak for itself kind of lines up with what i was saying about people choosing to repeat hells over and over. i think we all did plenty of runs w/ low-demi toons, but as you mentioned, your prolific accomplishments w/ low demis are impressive and prove that high demi isn't required to participate/conquer non-hells endgame. nonetheless, my comments were about people choosing to continue achieving high demi, not refusing to do runs due to lack of high demi. If it came out like i was accusing you of not participating in non-hells runs due to low demi, or of prioritizing hells over other endgame, i apologize, but in the end you did those 4 extra demi cycles instead of 40 ely/abo, rite?) to be fair, you choosing to repeat hells 7x didn't impact the formation of non-hells runs, since you are capable of forming your own runs and did those cycles on your own time by yourself, but i guess that's why multiboxing is so popular nowadays and i think it's why some people were a bit annoyed at another thread w/ what looked like kinda like "multiboxing is bad unless you're me" nitpicking/taking out of context/trolling i'll apologize for, but i read something that looked kinda like "grinding hells is bad, unless you're me" and it made me want to poast, srz
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