|
Post by darkentity on May 22, 2017 1:33:44 GMT
What if pure wizards could specialize for the loss of 1 (or 0 ) school(s), rather than 2.
|
|
|
Post by chirality on May 22, 2017 2:18:57 GMT
they never even got the bonus CLs in spec school in PLs that was slated years ago
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Jul 4, 2017 14:58:58 GMT
I like the zero cost idea. Blocking schools is such a chore. (Sorcerer already have blocked spells books anyway)
|
|
|
Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jul 4, 2017 17:05:55 GMT
Hmm, Specialization acts like a free feat; not barring anything seems a bit OP to me. However wizards are at a serious disadvantage as it stands. Since pure sorcs get a free DC, CL and SP at pure, in addition to a bunch of extra spell slots, perhaps - Wizards could reduce the number of barred schools to 1 at CL 30. This reduces the disparity to +1 dc, -1CL, -1SP in exchange for a barred school.
- Pure wizards (maybe introduce a new secret to fetch?) could unbar their second school. This comes out to +1 dc, -1CL, -1SP in exchange for versatility.
- I think a wizard's reduced spell slots restrict the power of the change.
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Jul 4, 2017 17:26:47 GMT
I would take it up to eleven
It's simple and increase their keep appeal (better at being generalists) while adding a spice to it.
Blocking schools isn't fun - not having feats for all schools is already a sort of "school block".
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 6, 2017 3:06:02 GMT
If you search the forums you can find an answer as to the why of this. There's a long development arc involving sorc v. wiz. The more areas release, the better wizards get by comparison. That doesn't fully factor in things like area-specific builds, but the higher the level of an area, the more spells you need, and will need in future areas, to be able to achieve maximum effectiveness. We're constantly looking at adding good uses of spells, and tend to focus on levels where sorcerers already have some choices forced. At some point the pendulum may swing the other way, as it has in the past.
Funky
|
|
|
Post by simpetar on Jul 6, 2017 8:33:37 GMT
If you search the forums you can find an answer as to the why of this. There's a long development arc involving sorc v. wiz. The more areas release, the better wizards get by comparison. That doesn't fully factor in things like area-specific builds, but the higher the level of an area, the more spells you need, and will need in future areas, to be able to achieve maximum effectiveness. We're constantly looking at adding good uses of spells, and tend to focus on levels where sorcerers already have some choices forced. At some point the pendulum may swing the other way, as it has in the past. Funky This is a nice theory, but reality suggests otherwise. Every time a new area is released, sorcs have to adapt, but so do wizards. The choice is rarely between single spells, but rather between whole schools and the corresponding feats. The only time it looked like wizards could be pulling ahead, sorcs were given +1 known spell for every level (for free) and Extra Spell Known feats short after that (which does indeed require some sacrifice). As Raj pointed out in the 3rd part of his recent sorc thread, it is usually better investment to make a specialized sorc for each of the big runs instead of one generalist wizard, simply because sorcs are so much more powerful and easier to master. The proclaimed adaptability of wizards is also disputable. Having access to all spells and (50% but in effect more, due to lack of spontaneous metamagic slots) fewer slots requires that the player has intimate knowledge of spawns and a bit of prophetic powers in the case of some randoms. A sorc in that place is likely to have an instant answer to whatever RNG (or DM) comes up with. There are 3 things wizards have a slight edge: 1. Splash rogue and get all chests, at the cost of casting power (finding secrets is possible even as pure) 2. Polymathy can in theory be used to bring some exotic / unusual spells to the table, but typically it is used for 2nd Karsus 3. They have tiny bit better defence (easily maxxed CA and Prescient's / Spellguards being the top choice) These 3 points combined are interesting and can be somewhat useful, but in terms of raw casting power very minor.
|
|
|
Post by Raj on Jul 6, 2017 11:57:25 GMT
but the higher the level of an area, the more spells you need, and will need in future areas, to be able to achieve maximum effectiveness. On the other hand all new areas offer very random monster spawns for which a wizard can't prepare in advance, and by not knowing exactly what's in the next spawn their spellbook has to be generic enough to contribute. By memorizing "a bit of everything" just to cover all possible niche mobs you run dry very quick. Then you make obscene high SR values that only a channeling sorcerer who can cast an abnormal amount of Mordenkainen's Disjunction + Assay Resistance on the fly has good chance of success with, when the specialist wizard with limited flexibility might fail the check on the few 'special circumstances only' weird stuff he slotted. The random unasked ideas compendium: To truly encourage wizard play, you'd have to make some extremely nasty stuff vulnerable (no SR check, no save, whatever) to specific spells, and at the same time make that monster not common enough to justify having a sorcerer learn that spell: end result would be having a wizard with a generic spellbook but also 1-2 copies of such "just in case" spell that are definitely going to work when it matters. It's necessary to have every run make 6-10 usually ignored spells useful though, else every sorcerer could afford 1-2 specific spells per run, see what happened to Abyss and PWK being a necessary sorc spell worth the sacrifice. It doesn't have to be an insta-kill, some examples: you can have flesh to stone (lvl 6 damn crowded already) be the only way to petrify a foe but also work as a slow/weakening effect, mass blindness the only way to blind/briefly stun some rare and seemingly unstoppable grunt, prismatic spray as the only way to briefly remove a 90% conceal from some annoying enemy. These spells should bypass sr/dc checks on such special circumstances, to properly award smart memorization without making the wizard a spamming bot (hence giving up all the residual arcane power, and you ending up needing a sorcerer anyway*). It also must be some unique way to disable (or kill) a foe, avoid some failures like Power Word: Stun; sure it's great to stun a Molydeus, but if I can obtain the same result (disabled monster) using the evergreen Gust of Wind or Greater Thunderclap that every sorceror already knows, that's not a great alternative. If another class can do it (read: bard Stillsound) then wizard niche is gone anyway. Ah and back to the original topic, nobody specializes. 1 school forbidden at CL30 and 0 schools forbidden at CL 60 would be okay. For most pratical purposes it's just a 2 dc to one school, it doesn't deserve such harsh penalities. *you could argue an ideal party covers both the sorceror, for every day spamming duty, and a wizard for very specific targets, but server population/timezones do not really allows for such planning. Also, I'd probably play standard sorceror + specialist sorceror
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Jul 6, 2017 13:07:07 GMT
If you search the forums you can find an answer as to the why of this. There's a long development arc involving sorc v. wiz. The more areas release, the better wizards get by comparison. That doesn't fully factor in things like area-specific builds, but the higher the level of an area, the more spells you need, and will need in future areas, to be able to achieve maximum effectiveness. We're constantly looking at adding good uses of spells, and tend to focus on levels where sorcerers already have some choices forced. At some point the pendulum may swing the other way, as it has in the past. Funky This could be true for Elysium and Aboleth - but not for Hells, Abyss or Limbo. Spontaneous casting (with metamagic) and additional spell slots already makes sorcerer way better at adapting for chaotic situations. In fact more spells make wizard even harder to play, unless they fill up multiple niches due the constraint of the fewer spell slots. And school barring isn't fun. Ah and back to the original topic, nobody specializes. 1 school forbidden at CL30 and 0 schools forbidden at CL 60 would be okay. For most pratical purposes it's just a 2 dc to one school, it doesn't deserve such harsh penalities. *you could argue an ideal party covers both the sorceror, for every day spamming duty, and a wizard for very specific targets, but server population/timezones do not really allows for such planning. Also, I'd probably play standard sorceror + specialist sorceror These being my points to advocate no barred schools instead - it jut gives wizards a good tool (school) that doesn't need a harsh penalty. There is a thematic sense - in real life, where a specialization title doesn't make you forgot your previous (generalist) title. Without barred school spell specialization would be a special bonus feat (which even makes sense since Wizard main advantage is getting feats)
|
|
|
Post by Enius the White on Jul 6, 2017 19:21:20 GMT
new areas offer very random monster spawns for which a wizard can't prepare in advance, and by not knowing exactly what's in the next spawn their spellbook has to be generic enough to contribute. By memorizing "a bit of everything" just to cover all possible niche mobs you run dry very quick. This effect is very pronounced. Spontaneous casting is extremely powerful. Even if you know the set spawns intimately, in practice (e.g. randoms, what will the rest of your party disable?, NB?, tank target?, etc), the variability in respective spells used per rest is often very large. This alone translates into Sorcs being way more efficient at output per rest, particularly in the hard random spawns where it really matters. Reincarnation really made any "server wide versatility" Wiz arguments largely moot. You can only play 1 toon in 1 area at any moment in time, and likewise, playing/tagging through exclusively, and optimized for, the hells, abyss, etc, for a couple of months on a Sorc before reincarnating to the next perfect build is trivial and normal course. The only possible drawback might be running a non-optimum build when helping form/fill runs for others. A wiz, by contrast is a "non-optimum build" vs a comparable Sorc all the time. For the record, I parked my level 80 Wiz ~7 years ago as a result of this wide imbalance, and having played 3 Sorcs (into the late 70s) since, I don't think I could go back without substantial changes, if at all. The spontaneous casting of Sorcs is extremely powerful, versatile, and addictive. Other important factors have also/already been highlighted well in this thread.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Jul 7, 2017 9:59:02 GMT
Spontaneous casting is simply fun. Filling spellbooks all the time with diff spells to feel effective is not. I feel like wizards should be stronger than sorcs simply to make up for the lack in convenience... But that's just me. Some people like fiddling with books.
Maybe if there was a way to save four or five spellbooks into a vault where you could load them from for specific runs wizards could be fun enough. !loadsb Abo , !loadsb Limbo1, !loadsb Limbo2, !loadsb Hells , !loadsb Thanatos . . . -- one can dream. Not like a wizard would penetrate those SR checks either in Limbo =/
|
|
|
Post by sabregirl on Jul 7, 2017 16:12:03 GMT
Lets be realistic. Sorcerers have gotten huge buffs multiple times while wizards have gotten pretty much nothing other than the consistent statement that "don't worry more spells will be/are useful". Sorcerers have gotten bonus spells per rest, then extra spells known per level for free every time the "more spells will be useful" mechanic threatened to impinge on their dominance. Then they got channeling and an SP boost for being pure. The only attempted buff for wizards was specialization, which virtually nobody uses because flexibility is the wizard's only upside. The spellslot nerf hit wizards harder than sorcs for the above reasons.
I don't play arcane very much partly because I've always preferred wizards and thus my sorc is way behind my other chars. It's rare that a party lacks an arcane these days, and has been for years. Everyone and their uncle has a sorcerer or two, and it's no fun to play the gimped arcane in a party with an uber sorc. Plus usually the party is missing a druid or a bard if anything so my druid easily went from 2x to 5x and lvl 79 in about a year of active play (I do really enjoy playing my druid, though). In short, wizards need a pretty big carrot for anyone to play them they certainly haven't gotten any carrots, as it's pretty rare to see them as a general rule. In contrast I would wager sorcerer is easily the most popular class on HG at current. (I believe we have stats on that?)
Free specialization for pure wizards and 1 barred school for non-pure is a reasonable start towards equalization, imo.
I'm pretty sure the simtools spellbook storage idea was tried a long time ago and resulted in server crashes so it had to be removed. So we are likely stuck with !sb clear and !sb fill only Given that, I think we're likely to need some hefty buffs or other structural changes.
-S
|
|
|
Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jul 7, 2017 23:13:41 GMT
I'm pretty sure the simtools spellbook storage idea was tried a long time ago and resulted in server crashes so it had to be removed. So we are likely stuck with !sb clear and !sb fill only Indeed. While it's been years since I wrote that code, I wonder if it was due to attempting to add a spell to a non-existent slot. I worry I may have missed some boundary checks. I would love to see a second attempt made with it. EDIT: if (k >= GetMaxSpellSlots(oCPC, nClass, j)) break; else { info = GetFirstSubString(info.rest, ","); mss.id = StringToInt(info.first); info = GetFirstSubString(info.rest, ","); mss.meta = StringToInt(info.first); mss.domain = 0; mss.ready = 0; SetMemorizedSpell(oCPC, nClass, j, k, mss); } Huh, nope. That's there but might be an array indexing error (>=) -- without getting back into NWN programming (HG in particular) I can't say. Since I haven't coded in NWScript for a long time that "if...else{" looks weird - yet the commands worked most of the time. Wonder if it had to deal with variables on the character that were too long, or perhaps the SetMemorizedSpell code (which I doubt but can't guarantee - Threaders don't crash the server, but they're never restoring spells, only "using" them). Unfortunately I don't have any more stack traces, and don't have a VirtualBox setup to test.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 1:46:13 GMT
Balancing between the two also costs dev time. Maybe it's time to relegate wiz to multiclassing/botting niche role instead of trying to keep it in balance with sorc.
|
|
|
Post by Test on Jul 8, 2017 2:32:52 GMT
Balancing between the two also costs dev time. Maybe it's time to relegate wiz to multiclassing/botting niche role instead of trying to keep it in balance with sorc. But I loved my poor wiz!
|
|