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Post by vent on Jul 15, 2017 11:07:55 GMT
Any reason why all cleric takes this one(especially turners? ?). Energy buffer is cool but 1/ we have immu on ring 2/ we have protection from elements , all "lesser" ebuffers are available. Why would turner even take this one ?
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Post by desocupado on Jul 15, 2017 11:18:00 GMT
To turn elementals. Firewall also has some uses.
Earth water and air aren't really better choices
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Post by simpetar on Jul 15, 2017 11:19:28 GMT
Energy Buffer is a good backup, when something bad happens to Gate. Also it reaches up to 60/-, highest of all the lesser spells. Immunities (found mostly on rings) and resistance work in synergy: immunity is applied first, then resistance, so as result you take even less elemental damage.
Wall of Fire becomes stone wall at higher levels, which you can use for some tactical shenanigans.
Turners need 1 elemental domain in order to turn elementals, the choice is usually between Fire and Earth (Stoneskin). Other domains can be taken as feats in LLs (if you meet the conditions), but they won't give you access to domain spells.
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Post by desocupado on Jul 15, 2017 14:57:31 GMT
Doesnt Gate render stoneskin pointless on the caster?
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Post by simpetar on Jul 15, 2017 17:54:07 GMT
Gate gives damage resistance, Stoneskin gives damage reduction. Physical attacks are decreased in this order: damage immunity (x%) -> damage resistance (x/-) -> damage reduction (x/+y). It's a nice little insurance, just as EB is and you can target others with it. That said, it's unlikely that a physical attack would make it past the first two in the case in a heavily armored turner with Gate up and Stoneskin caps at 20/+15 that you can find on some high gear.
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Post by vent on Jul 15, 2017 18:25:35 GMT
Thanks for replies, alot valuable info in here ! Question, sun evil good domains are purely for hells and elysium? Im wondering about legendary feats such as this ones and pick up legendary feats at paragon levels(to get as many usefull domains as i can get for these runs) Yay or nay?
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Post by simpetar on Jul 15, 2017 19:19:19 GMT
Typically turners start with Fire (explained above) and Plant (mainly for creeps and Barkskin is useful at low levels). In LLs you want Sun and Good/Evil (doesn't matter which). Destruction is disputable and many turners skip it; turning constructs follows different rules than other things, it is unreliable and there are other ways to deal with machines quickly. After that you want to max you charisma (turning stat), spell penetration feats, Divination as high as you can afford and Extend spell. The rest is more or less optional. There are plenty of turner builds around the forums, but unless you can put your hands on at least Fallen Angel, it won't be really effective. Turning in Ely is a very special case - you need to have Blackguard levels in order to turn good creatures. The "generalist" turner you use for Hells/Abyss doesn't work there. That's the sad truth about turners: they rock some areas and are (near) useless in others.
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Post by vent on Jul 16, 2017 6:59:37 GMT
Ok,builds are from 2009 or 11 so I have to ask some of forum guys for advices . Starting domains : fire plant Leg domains sun evil or good, that is all what I need to be effective at hells and abyss? gr cha 10 is a must too, i got fallen angel from very nice guy ingame so my next goal is half celestal Im also wondering about abjuration for energy resist/banishement (it uses cha mod) , any advices?
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Post by simpetar on Jul 16, 2017 8:20:22 GMT
What's required of Hells/Abyss turner hasn't changed much over the years, so you might just as well consider them up to date. If you insist, here is how I'd make a FA (human) turner:
str 8 dex 9 con 8 wis 17 (22) int 8 cha 18 (20) - all points go here
SF: Divination, GSF: Divination (domains: Fire, Plant) Extended Spell Extra Turning SF: Abjuration GSF: Abjuration SF: Enchantment GSF: Enchantment
6x Great cha ESF: Divination cleric bonus: 3x Great wis, ESF: Abjuration, ESF: Enchantment, Planar Turning
Domain: Sun Domain: Good 4x Great cha LSF: Divination (read Spell Penetration tome)
PSF: Divination PSK: Divination Legendary Spell Penetration Paragon Spell Penetration LSF: Enchantment / Abjuration PSF: Enchantment / Abjuration
Skills: Concentration, Discipline (cross-class), Persuade, Heal (the leftover)
This should get you through Hells reasonably well. There are couple choices. The first and biggest one is whether to splash 1 level of paladin or not. By doing so, your saves will skyrocket and you will save some skill points by dumping Discipline at lvl 40, instead of cross-classing it. The cost is reduced turning power (unable to even stun some big targets), -1 to penetration, Battletide, and 2 less rounds on extended Greater Restoration. You decide. The second choice is between maxing Abjuration vs. Enchantment. You will have both epics, but can reasonably reach PSF only in one (the chances are that you will get Half-Celestial by the time you need to decide though). Abjuration is my personal favorite, with Energy Immunity, Magic Vestments on steroids, Banishment (comes handy in Abyss) and sometimes Greater Dispel. Enchantment is needed for the epic (you already have it), but as cleric you may be expected to provide GMW. Yours with ESF is +13, but them greedy tanks will WANT MOAR! +15 is needed to overcome the iconic Pit Fiend reduction, but you can always hope your party will have somebody else with higher GMW than you. Enchantment also comes with Rebuke which is useful in Abyss, but (almost) everything that can be rebuked there can also be turned.
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Post by chirality on Jul 16, 2017 8:41:02 GMT
Good job noticing abj attractiveness already; proud of you!
I would highly recommend against levelling up a turner from scratch. It's impossible to overstate the importance of several things:
1) Turner is probably the slowest and most drag-required class in the game from L1, because until you hit DB (and have the TL/DC to actually kill the mobs--and without an ego, you burn through turns->rests FAST), you're incapable of doing anything without a party, let alone providing useful offense to the party. Sissy and Thids are likewise total drags (yeah I levelled one w/ destruction just to "help" kill robots in sissy/thids, and yeah you can rebuke gith and siss, but 99.8% drag is not noticeable improvement vs 100%), and although 40->Tia is usually a (relatively) quick timespan, 1-40 is 100% drag and 41-DB is 100% drag (and DB is only efficient far past the level you should be spending time in DB, aka 55).
2) Turner does not match the offensive arsenal of a caster cleric, and a real cleric is infinitely more attractive for nearly any run/situation (some exceptions: tia, farming DB w/ PL toon; party of 4+ carpet tanks lacking cores so you can stun everything while they bash it). Overall, lacking plode + heartbane + destruction + ED makes a turner no replacement for a caster cleric, and any time you bring a turner to a run, it means you could have brought a caster, but instead you have a turner, which leads to...
3) Learning hells+ on a caster cleric is a linchpin for career progression/endgame proficiency->mastery, and playing a turner does not ensure or hasten this process (rather, retarding it).
Next point, just something I realized when I started typing up x0 FA turner build for you and then deleted in annoyance (simp posted it though, good on him, although persuade is imo a poor and weak choice vs CA or c/c tumble):
4) Turner's tight build requirements make decisions on attribute point distribution and feat progression very difficult at x0/secret subrace, such as losing cha/wisdom (DC/need for more great stat feats) in exchange for int (skillpoints), dex (magic number 14 for erinyes domination), con (hp/disc); pal splash for saves in exchange for crucial and critical loss of turnlevel
And finally...
5) Drag status on nessus. Other than: --destroying trash that caster cleric kills easily anyway --stunning spawns (debatable usefulness, at best makes an already-competent party's run smoother, and -OP party's run a snoozefest; while struggling party will enjoy stunned mobs, they'd enjoy a competent caster cleric 1000x more) --buffing the party with the support arsenal that a caster cleric offers anyway --rebuking random orthons :-|
there is very little that a turner does, and even less that it does which a caster doesn't; and with a real cleric being far more adept at handling difficult randoms (hb+plode+ED+destruct+erad), they just barely qualify themselves as more than support bot on deep runs like nessus.
I put this at #5 because although it's the least important worry(? or maybe very important in current HG environment if you don't box/lack reliable mates for party scheduling), it really is a thing to consider when thinking of the future--aka when the time comes, will my runshout/partychat solicitation look like "Nessus has turner, needs ABCD tanks" / "my turner needs nessus, you guys think we can get the rest of the party together next week? :-D "
In other words, demi a cleric, reinc as turner if you really want to play one. Levelling a turner from scratch is just a fail for you and any prospective party you hope to play with.
Take this from a guy who loves turners and levelled up two separate toons from scratch (got #2 @cania atm, but i'll prolly have to offer canos as bribery to bring on ness) ^^ It's not that turners are bad or useless, it's just that any time you consider a toon, you're making a cost decision on your playtime and analysis of party strength/membership slots. Turner can be a great asset to show up with when the party doesn't need anything else badly, and it can nearly singlehandedly dominate shallow runs comprised of trash, and can really hasten mid-deep runs and make core caster/tank jobs easier, but it's only something to bring in lieu of a caster when the party is competent/assured success already, and it's not something to build/level from x0 fallen angel in lieu of a caster.
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Post by simpetar on Jul 16, 2017 11:19:05 GMT
Heeey, I had been in love with Abjuration long before Banishment was a thing! Energy Immunity is great and Abjuration has some of the best defensive/buffing spells overall. Turner is definitely painful to build from scratch. Especially in the 40-55 range, when you cannot even dream of turning something - and all you can do is Harm eligible targets and spam Firestorm / Destructs / EQ if you feel confident you won't break loot. 1-20 is surprisingly easy when you grab a melee weapon and buff it up, 21-40 you can be a wannabe caster (22 starting wis may give you some kills). Yes, turners are quite an extreme case of "all or nothing" - the most basic concept is that you have 1 button and it either works or it doesn't. When it doesn't, you need to find other small ways you can contribute, such as being the Prayer + Battletide bot (8 or even 9 drop), GR the needy, etc. Which is also why I listed Persuade. Clerics are extremely sturdy thanks to Gate, self-GR and turners can stun stuff on top of that. My turner got x4 and few Prince wins with 89 AC (barely enough to tank Aspect of Lolth), without too many survival issues, just relying on Gate, GR and stunning - apart from Azzagrat where I decided to try out the tree turning robes and paid for it dearly. In Hells it's disabling chcecks that can kill you (kd, erin/gelidarch/coldforge dom, arachil webs) and no amount of AC will protect you from those. That's why I believe for regular Hells play as a turner cc Tumble and CA aren't necessary. But it's just a matter of opinion. I'd have included a warning about ploder having more merits than turner, but the OP inquired about turners
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Post by vent on Jul 16, 2017 17:07:36 GMT
I played my cleric (he is 58 atm, pure ploder with open subrace) in tia (here as bot) and dis. I was suprised that I could kill anything and really liked dc cleric. Im gonna reincarnate it to turner (thanks for build above ) and level + gather tia pieces and all better eq, as well as demi status and finally half celestial race! 3 months of playing should be enough andhopefully it will be well geared and built to function as strong dc cleric : D
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Post by Raj on Jul 16, 2017 17:16:34 GMT
If you rely on reincarnation then you can get better stats on a Radiance Genasi turner, with demigod stats unlocking planar turning at level 63 so no need to invest too much into WIS, usually sacrificing the (weak) Destruction domain due to PL feats starving. Not that getting 2x RG is easier than 2x HC but had to be said, just in case. A shame you liked the cleric but prefer to play the dumbed down version
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Post by chirality on Jul 16, 2017 19:46:27 GMT
Heeey, I had been in love with Abjuration Eh, I meant to address vent with that comment I know you know
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Post by simpetar on Jul 16, 2017 22:10:58 GMT
If you rely on reincarnation then you can get better stats on a Radiance Genasi turner, with demigod stats unlocking planar turning at level 63 so no need to invest too much into WIS /confuzzled here. RG has no wis bonus whatsoever, but Planar Turning needs both 25 wis and cha. Even with x2 bonuses and 1 point from PLs, you'd need to take 3x Great Wisdom - assuming you start with 18 cha and 17 wis at character creation (no other option if you are optimalizing). Yes, you will end up with 2 more cha than HC and the rest of RG bonuses will ameliorate the horrible starting stats a little bit (you will still fail any serious stat check). At the same time however you are trading 2 LL and 1 epic (!) feat for 3 PL feats, that doesn't look like a great deal.
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