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Post by dopplegang on Oct 29, 2017 7:33:35 GMT
I have spent several months attempting to design an endgame capable Dwarven Defender, and I wanted to throw some observations out and see what others think of them. If you want to make a DD either you use Dwarven Waraxe, or you abandon a special ability. This is an issue with most of the Dwarven Defenders special abilities Legendary Battle Hardening is a huge cost at 5 feats and lots of CON, limiting your ability to do anything with Dex except to lament. Charisma is an atrocity, but no one has ever accused dwarves of being attractive. However the dwarven waraxes totally breaks the end game capability of the Dwarven Defender.
The problem with that is that single hand weapons are a fail in end game either as dual wield or as sword and board, since nickle and dime damage after enemy damage reduction is a recipe for failure in end game or even at asmo, with a few exceptions. Tanks doing pew pew pew 10 damage is quite literally an abysmal failure. Limbo areas have only really brought the issue of singlehand dmg to the forefront of discussion, its always terribly low, 2handers routinely do twice the damage of sword and board if not more(individual anecdotes may vary obviously).
I propose an easy fix to this, allow Dwarven Defenders to gain their shield AC from Great Axes as well. This would not be unheard of for a dwarf to use a large axe, for that matter the lore exists for Battlehammer dwarves as much as axe wielding dwarves, possibly mauls and hammers would be a great addition as well. Either way, this would enable 2hand damage for this class along with at least some semblance of a survivable AC.
Another possible suggestion I would like to throw out there would be to increase the shield ac received to be equal to available light shields in the game currently, given that the bonus is dependent on constitution the stat demands limit options quite enough already. Unless I am mistaken currently the only build the Dwarven Defender really works with is a dual wielding dwarven waraxe toon who does little damage and takes little damage, not counting inflictions.
In the end a modification to greataxes would be essentially allow the same builds but with a 2hand weapon rather than a dual Dwarven Waraxe. This would be the quickest fix I can think of but it would still require some scripting and code, there are plenty of other ideas for modifying them as well that I think would be quite a bit more code
What ya think?
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Post by Test on Oct 29, 2017 8:56:31 GMT
Another option may be some option that made single handed weapons more viable.
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Post by dopplegang on Oct 29, 2017 11:57:20 GMT
I agree singlehand is weak, I just finished playing one through to demi 2 sword and board and I cringe the whole time I was pew pew-ing things, however the impact study of modifying all single handed weapons is huge, might be better to modify them over a span of time to ease the impact of such a change or possibly never make that change at all. I also don't know what discussions have been had already regarding what could be done to improve the use of singlehands, for that matter tiny and small weapons are in an even worse situation. Compared to that, adding temp AC to a weapon "on equip" when it meets the DD requirements is a tiny modification with modest impact on a single class and no impact on any others. I suppose that in itself relegates it to the trashbin of ideas not worth the effort, but I figured I would put it out there see what people think about it.
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Post by woqued on Oct 29, 2017 17:38:15 GMT
Regarding DD's - the ac on 2h class-specific weapons seems like a fine change. Quite like divine shield for divine classes, except probably worse as you don't have con-derivated dmg as they do cha. The question is if they actually need this ac or if some other change would be better - like a way to deal damage from CON barb-style (we have multiple cha-source dmg dealers, why not have a few con based ones? we already have str/dex stat checks to prevent going full nuts on con), or some utility effect instead of the kinda junk crap they got going for them atm. Perhaps the shields shouldnt be damaging mobs around them and instead should debilitate them somehow - reduce their ab, listen, parry perhaps. Something unique instead of their current niche - being a useless meatball.
Mobs are damn beefy for 1h, gear post-randomization and in future post-xr for limbo -> toons in general are overpowered for the content => singlehanders have lost almost all of their niches as 2h toons can be very tanky and mobs are very tanky for 1h tanks to whittle down. Onehanders are for utility classes and low demi toons for most part as a result - and even those seem to be happier going 2h, excluding Lash, Shifterlash, Stormlord. Even the lashes would probably go 2h if not for whip being impossible to 2h. There has been discussion around this for dropping 2h modifier a bit, but then again who wants the runs to last LONGER than they already do - there are plenty of mobs that take an extended period of time to bring down even with multiple current 2h damage dealers.
Useless ramble on Ideas: 2h multiplier to 35%, monk ac reduced from current values to 50% unless you have 9 or more monk/druid/ranger levels and to 75% unless you have 20+ rounded down on both, give unique set shields that do cool stuff to incentivize shield users (go suggest in set item project forum if you get a cool idea!) and give less popular classes a dr drop source for dualwield to be more viable. Perhaps Dwarven Defenders could drop physical DR within their spinning slashes, RDD's could drop their type of ele dr within their aura, gnomish inventors could drop dr with their gadgets, Assassins could drop phys DR by 1/- per attack on same target stacking up to 5 instead of requiring wrack casts and not be useless vs crit immunes, etc. Just ideas and its not like you want everything to drop dr, but it's a lacking mechanic atm in the game and there are many weak very undesireable classes out there.
We have death magic, sr/save/stat drop on all cores - even useless variants on bards - why cant we have multiple sources of listen/conceal/parry/dr/imm drops on multiple tank classes? They're paragon, you oughta think they'd learn to break enemies' armor by now.
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Post by manuka on Oct 29, 2017 18:45:19 GMT
Ye i asked for the same change a while back dopple, it souds fun
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Post by dopplegang on Oct 30, 2017 0:24:36 GMT
I like a lot of the direction of Woqued's ideas. Possibly with the exception of nerfing damage capabilities. As was mentioned, the runs are long, and even the hardest hitters take quite a bit of time to bash down certain mobs. Why make that even longer?
I was in attendance of a nessus run just a few hours ago where the damage recorded as such: 376706 sorc 366684 sorc 240242 tank 125419 tank 182323 tank
No one who seriously held a weapon with intent to use it was using a shield because shields are a penalty. I didnt bring my sword and board toon this time but I was there a few days prior, she had less than 100,000 damage. Maybe its just me, but I don't understand why we would discuss reducing melee damage capability with such numbers. Everyone knows tanks can't outperform cores on any run. That is the problem.
The creativity of allowing shields to stun bash or cause (or improve) knockdown/disarm capabilities or cause inflictions of their own is very interesting, shield bash for infliction would make shields more viable and definitely more fun, it does not address the sad damage delivery of a 1hander or the dwarven defender who is still relegated to "immovable ugly rock" role in the party. The core complaint is still essentially that weapons do so little damage, the twohand phenomenon has manifested due to the desire for more dmg delivery to certain long winded mobs in order to address this issue. Tiny weapons could pierce DR, plate mail has nice little slots for daggers to slip through, fancy shields could bash to inflict listen/conceal/parry/dr/imm reductions, slashing weapons could cut the bindings on plate mail reducing the ac for a few seconds...blinding mirror shields could reduce mob AB in immediate area. I like the CON based dmg increase, that would somewhat address the depressing 1 hander damage capability, seems like it could conflict with the con based shield ac already in play but it is definitely a good place to start brainstorming.
Maybe I am looking at this backwards, but it seems to me that reducing monk AC would only serve to relegate 2 hand builds to the trash bin completely, or everyone would all become that 30 monk 2hander build or the paladin divine shield build, there would be no other way to make a 2hander that is capable of end game runs unless something else was also in place to cover the reduced AC. Granted I have never played a pure monk so I cannot say for sure, I love monks, but I have to say I never built one in HG due to their weak(apparent) dmg output. In essence, monks and plate/tower give equal ac, I basically get the same AC(I dont have XR anything) with a monk and robes as I do with plate and tower, the major offensive difference is that I can put out at least 2x more dmg with the 2hand weapon and robes on average compared to the same build with sword and board and retain the same AC. And its not like that makes the build OP as a 2hander, it simply makes it tolerable enough to keep, and a clear choice over the shield. The only reason I play a sword and board at all is because its not double demi yet and its depressing during the entire run seeing and knowing how little I am actually effecting the party's capability. I suppose it is still better than being an ugly rock waiting for the sorc to kill it for you.
Oh and does anyone know why Dwarven Defenders dont get +1 Str and Con at 45 50 55 and 60 equivalent to fighters, pally, barb, and rogue? It is certainly not due to their OP status.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 1:21:52 GMT
I was in attendance of a nessus run just a few hours ago where the damage recorded as such: 376706 sorc 366684 sorc 240242 tank 125419 tank 182323 tank While the general observation that 1Hers are increasingly redundant is true, numbers like these hold ~zero value because most spells deal AoE damage (which adds up on mobs that end up being insta-killed), which warps the data entirely. For future reference, checking stats such as "#stat.vs Pit Fiend" or "#stat.vs Firstborn" are where the real value is - melee toons are very effective at beating down these tough monsters.
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Post by Retribution on Oct 30, 2017 2:39:36 GMT
I was in attendance of a nessus run just a few hours ago where the damage recorded as such: 376706 sorc 366684 sorc 240242 tank 125419 tank 182323 tank While the general observation that 1Hers are increasingly redundant is true, numbers like these hold ~zero value because most spells deal AoE damage (which adds up on mobs that end up beingĀ insta-killed), which warps the data entirely. For future reference, checking stats such as "#stat.vs Pit Fiend" or "#stat.vs Firstborn" are where the real value is - melee toons are very effective at beating down these tough monsters. Is there any way to to adjust the logger to show damage vs targets which are killed by damage? I always thought that would help paint (good) tanks in a better light, as it would nullify some of the aoe damage mages do vs targets which are instakilled the next round, which inflate the logs
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 2:53:38 GMT
Is there any way to to adjust the logger to show damage vs targets which are killed by damage? I always thought that would help paint (good) tanks in a better light, as it would nullify some of the aoe damage mages do vs targets which are instakilled the next round, which inflate the logs Not that I know of. There are too many variables to really make a fair comparison based off one number anyway; broadly speaking against ONE tank target (eg: Pit Fiend), Sorcerers and well-built 1Hers perform similarly, with 2Hers coming out moderately ahead. But then if the Pit Fiend isn't Cursed/NBed, the Sorcerer falls behind... and don't forget the Sorcerer's spells consume slots... but if there are multiple Pit Fiends then the Sorcerer is much more efficient... but the Sorcerer is vulnerable to KD and may have to re-position more to shake agro... and melee toons can handle Paragons more easily... Too many variables
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Post by Test on Oct 30, 2017 6:54:59 GMT
Oh and does anyone know why Dwarven Defenders dont get +1 Str and Con at 45 50 55 and 60 equivalent to fighters, pally, barb, and rogue? It is certainly not due to their OP status. This is a really good point and would be a great change.
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Post by simpetar on Oct 30, 2017 8:52:24 GMT
Maybe its just me, but I don't understand why we would discuss reducing melee damage capability with such numbers. Everyone knows tanks can't outperform cores on any run. That is the problem. This statement is quite broad and misleading, to say the least. You cannot underestimate the value a good tank (emphasis on good) brings to a party, even one full of cores / sorcs. It is damage and instakills that eventually get you the boss kill and loot and the more the better, but there are many factors to consider that prevent cores or tanks from performing well. I could point another nessus where 2h battle cleric crushed 2 sorcs and 1h pally and lash tied with them, but these log comparisons matter a little. I am all up for giving non-WC DwDs some love, no matter the form. Just for sake of this post, these are (were) my previous suggestions (some overlapping with others) - remove speed penalty from Stoneguard (at least for toons with 30 DwD) and replace complete kd immunity with +10 stacking bonus vs. kd checks / alternative 1: give them crit immunity full time and speed drop incurs only when Stoneguard is active for full kd immunity / alternative 2: Stoneguard does not decrease speed, full kd immunity is replaced by stacking +(con mod) bonus, respecting the general +20 cap - +4 str and con in LLs - shield bonus cap increased to +16 (really, +12 was good when Pentavite was the top shield you could have), and applies to ANY axe (hand axe, battle axe, dwarven axe, greataxe) - this was the plan all along when you look at the spreadsheed, but never made it through - chance to ignore non-area, non-periodic inflictions equal to (2 * (base armor ac + base shield ac + con mod))% - gives DwDs some longevity before they are forced to restore and encourages them to go as real dwarves in full plate and tower shields and that kind of stuff - Testudo: aura-like ability that gives all allies inside the aura 100% ranged concealment - much like druid Storm Tower, but without elec imm and miss chance - Draw Foes gets +10 dc (to at least come close to the one of WCs) and applies penalties according to !opt taunt*** setting (could be an ego? pretty darn strong) However, you touched the problem in the very first post in this thread: even the quickest fix will require a lot of coding, and people who can do that currently seem to be missing
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Post by Test on Oct 30, 2017 10:03:26 GMT
Everyone knows tanks can't outperform cores on any run. I don't know this. Historically the fastest/smoothest Ness run I did was a Sheinja run (minus myself) with 8 tanks, a melee bard and a fat Dragon. At that time several Sheinja tanks had phenomenal damage outputs. Recently I have seen one particularly 2hw ftr/harper/monk top the damage charts on a few runs. I would say conventionally they can't, but Oinos, Limbo and Paragon levels have already shifted the goal posts so who knows what EE may bring. Ultimately I'd like to see some balancing tweaks for all classes and relevance returned to not just classes like DD and Wiz but also some niche for sword and board and other more specific things - like threaders, DSM and the much discouraged notion of turners in Limbo.
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