The Wall - 32 Fighter / 5 Harper Scout / 3 Monk

[shendelzare]

I've been tinkering a bit on test characters today trying to figure out what build to reincarnate my sword & board fighter into for a 2handed UniTank once I get him to at least 2x demi and good enough gear to have decent AC (asmo artifact, SH, etc).
This is the result of my testing so far. Input is always welcome.

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32 Fighter / 5 Harper Scout / 3 Monk

Half-Elf / Half-Guardinal

Alignment: Lawful Good (Lawful for Monk and non-evil for Harper)


Features of the build:

Fairly quick (Monk Speed from Monk splash and Harper Scout boots)

Improved Expertise for when the going gets tough and your AC just isn't enough.
Epic Dodge feat granted for free at 30 levels of Fighter
Pseudo-Concealment that stacks with other conceal at 21 levels of Fighter
Prepare Weapon adds bonus adds Fighter level (including LL)/4 to damage for 2 hours per fighter level.

Harper Scout secret +25% movement speed and 2 additional attacks per round for 5 minutes, 2 uses/day
Can create Greater Restoration and Shadow Shield potions

Great Disarm, Great Knockdown and Great Parry. Also Legendary Disarm and Legendary Knockdown.
Ability to switch from Greatsword to Maul while still retaining a portion of the weapon feat bonuses (Paragon Weapon Alternate). Useful when Bludgeoning works a lot better than Slashing.

Subrace bonus:

Evasion (and over 70 Reflex save @ 80)
Immunity: Petrification
Sleep Immunity
25% Electrical Immunity
Epic Energy Resistance: Cold: I
Epic Energy Resistance: Acid: I

Abilities	Start	SUB	@80 / +16 & 2x Demi
Strength	15	19	56
Dexterity	14	18	52
Constitution	12	12	34
Intelligence	14	16	38
Wisdom	14	14	36
Charisma	8	10	32

Pandect: Unsure
Artifact: Constitution (not taken into account of the above @80 stats)

Level	Class	Feat	Ability Gain	Skill
1	Fighter	Blooded Weapon Focus: Greatsword		+4 Discipline +4 Parry
2	Fighter	Disarm		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
3	Fighter	Iron Will		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
4	Fighter	Weapon Specialization: Greatsword	Strength	+1 Discipline +1 Parry
5	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Parry
6	Fighter	Knockdown Greater Weapon Focus: Greatsword		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
7	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Parry
8	Fighter	Improved Critical: Greatsword	Strength	+1 Discipline +1 Parry
9	Fighter	Great Fortitude		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
10	Fighter	Improved Disarm		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
11	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Parry
12	Fighter	Alertness Improved Parry	Strength	+1 Discipline +1 Parry
13	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Parry
14	Fighter	Power Attack		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
15	Fighter	Expertise		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
16	Fighter	Cleave	Strength	+1 Discipline +1 Parry
17	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Parry
18	Fighter	Great Cleave Improved Expertise		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
19	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Parry
20	Fighter	Improved Knockdown	Strength	+1 Discipline +1 Parry
21	Fighter	Armor Skin		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
22	Fighter	Epic Weapon Focus: Greatsword		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
23	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Parry
24	Fighter	Epic Will Epic Prowess -> Strenght	Strength	+1 Discipline +1 Parry
25	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Parry
26	Fighter	Epic Weapon Specialization: Greatsword		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
27	Fighter	Epic Skill Focus: Parry		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
28	Fighter	Overelming Critical: Greatsword	Strength	+1 Discipline +1 Parry
29	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Parry
30	Fighter	Epic Reflexes Epic Prowess -> Strength		+1 Discipline +1 Parry
31	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Parry
32	Monk		Strength	+1 Discipline +1 Parry +20 Concentration +35 Listen +35 Tumble
33	Monk	Devestating Critical: Greatsword		+1 Discipline +1 Parry +1 Listen +1 Tumble
34	Monk			+1 Discipline +1 Parry +1 Listen +1 Tumble +6 Lore +8 Persuade +4 Search
35	Harper Scout	Epic Skill Focus: Listen		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Tumble
36	Harper Scout	Epic Prowess -> Strength	Strength	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Tumble
37	Harper Scout			+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Tumble
38	Harper Scout			+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Tumble
39	Harper Scout	Epic Prowess -> Strength Great Dexterity I		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Tumble
40	Fighter	Epic Prowess	Strength	+1 Discipline +5 Parry +31 Craft Armor
41	Fighter			+1 Discipline +2 Listen +1 Parry
42	Fighter	Legendary Weapon Focus: Greatsword	Strength	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
43	FighterNone			+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
44	Fighter		Dexterity	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
45	Fighter	Legendary Weapon Specialization		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
46	Fighter		Dexterity	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
47	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
48	Fighter	Legendary Skill Affinity: Tumble	Dexterity	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
49	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry +10 Tumble +40 Craft Weapon
50	Fighter		Dexterity	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry +1 Tumble
51	Fighter	Legendary Will		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry +1 Tumble
52	Fighter		Dexterity	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry +1 Tumble
53	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry +1 Tumble
54	Fighter	Legendary Fortitude	Dexterity	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry +1 Tumble
55	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry +1 Tumble
56	Fighter		Dexterity	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry +1 Tumble
57	Fighter	Legendary Disarm		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
58	Fighter		Dexterity	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
59	Fighter			+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
60	Fighter	Legendary Knockdown	Dexterity	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry

Level	Feat	Skill
61		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
62		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
63	Paragon Weapon Focus: Greatsword	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
64		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
65		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
66	Paragon Weapon Specialization: Greatsword	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
67		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
68		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
69	Paragon Weapon Alternate: Maul	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
70		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
71		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
72	Undecided	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
73		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
74		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
75	Undecided	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
76		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
77		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
78	Undecided	+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
79		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry
80		+1 Discipline +1 Listen +1 Parry

Stat at lvl 80 /w +16 abilities, +20 saves cap, +20 AB cap, +17 Armor, +20 Natural (from SH), +20 Deflection (Asmo Artifact) & +20 dodge cap (2x Demi):

Fortitude	72
Reflex	72
Will	72
AC	137
AB	101

Strength	56	+23
Dexterity	52	+21
Constitution	34	+12
Intelligence	38	+14
Wisdom	36	+13
Charisma	32	+11

Final notes:

As you can see, I'm undecided on what Pandect to use, as I'm not sure which would be most useful out of Epic Energy Resistance and Craft Weapon/Armor. Looking at my test character with +50 skill points buffed and +12 ability buffs, it has 97 Craft Armor and 119 Craft Weapon. I might have to go through one more time and note down the exact skill gains so I can reach 120 total Craft Weapon and then try to move enough points + the Craft Armor pandect to reach 120 Craft Armor.

Also, I'm not sure what my last 3 Paragon feats should be. I'm thinking 3x Adaptivity, but I'm not sure how useful Paragon Disarm/Knockdown are, or any of the other Paragon feats. Suggestions are appreciated.

Finally, I'm not sure if 137 AC is good enough for tanking Abyss and the likes, but this is the best I could come up with after some shuffling around on stats (was originally 134 AC and 104 AB, but I changed 6 STR gains in LL to DEX). Can't really shuffle more points from STR into DEX without losing the ability to wear SH.

[dopplegang]

I like the layout design, easy to copy/paste into a spreadsheet to change up to my personal style of play. I should not this is very similar to Manuka's fighter build:

highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/25068/manukas-2hander-amazing-everthing

and I would mention that this style is quite effective as an end game tank. Is your 137 AC calculation with or without Girding, that 17 armor AC would be 15 robes with +2 Girding? 137 is decent but your going to wish it was 140.

The environmental feats are very effective at increasing your defensive capabilities and they should be high on your list of options to take as paragon feats for a tank. From what I see you could either take two adaptive feats and take Para Disarm or you could take all three adaptives. Personally when I built my fighter from Manuka's design I took the disarm pandect and legendary disarm and all three adaptives, however I still have a little trouble disarming the higher end foes and it was only an after-thought to be a disarmer in the first place. On top of the concern that most players will say you are below the minimum requirement for disarm AB. I don't recall the numbers off the top of my head though and I could not find the chart I read once on the forums about it, maybe someone else will find it before I do and post it or link to it again.

[shendelzare]

The numbers at 80 are all self-buffed (ie, no buffs), so no girding. Also, regarding the +17 armor I was told I could get bur +17 robes (although other than my sorc I've yet to level any robe characters, so I don't know if that's true or not).

[simpetar]

Nov 5, 2017 9:17:11 GMT shendelzare said:

The numbers at 80 are all self-buffed (ie, no buffs), so no girding. Also, regarding the +17 armor I was told I could get bur +17 robes (although other than my sorc I've yet to level any robe characters, so I don't know if that's true or not).

17 armor AC is with girding, robes cap at 15 AC, even BUR and XR ones (for the sake of completeness, casters and typically staffies can push it to 28 with spells, but obviously not applicable to a fighter).

3 levels of monk will give you very slightly better saves when taken before 20, but nothing else. I would suggest 1 monk and 2 more fighter lvls, for another epic feat and stronger whetstone. Alternatively, 5 monk levels (4 pre-epic, 1 in epic) will give you +1 AC, -1 BAB and noticeable bonus to saves (+2f, +3r, +3w) over pure ftr.

You might consider taking at least 20 points in concentration, some LL checks are in 40s, endgame checks around 60-70s, without it you are asking for trouble even as a tank.

It is probably a good idea to push ne stat to 60, dex or preferably str. With only 56 str (at 80) you won't be able to safely stand up to normal mariliths without uuu or stat check gear and chances are that you will see (and contribute to) quite some paragons. Higher str also means more AB, which in turn will increase your chances against balors, when you disarm them faster.

[chainlink]

Paragon Disarm is pretty much a must have, the improvement to the main disarm is significant and whilst the limited AoE is not as impressive it is very amusing when 'suckers' surrounding the primary target get incidentally 'monked' as well. As previously mentioned disarming stuff can be important for survival as quite a lot of creatures rely on the presence of their weapon to achieve instakill effects, so the better your chance of succeeding the more likely you are to be able to keep on tanking.
I've played a Ftr build similar to this and Knockdown is somewhat underwhelming especially as casters can AoE the effect with a significantly longer duration than you will be able to get, I occasionally used it to KD Raks but that's about it as you'll normally be tanking the big boys that are pretty much all immune to it.

[dopplegang]

I would concur with Simp and with Chain on two key points.

It is quite embarrassing to charge into Aboleths as a tank only to have your weapon immediately disarmed right after buffing it for 2 minutes due to not having enough concentration, and you cannot fix the disarm during combat:

wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Bestiary:_Aboleths#Mu_Spore

As for Knockdown, I use KD on things that are unimportant, all the big boys that are important your busy using you swift actions disarming them and they are KD immu anyway so I find little value in knockdown, when I reinc I plan to skip it. But thats just my style, your mileage may differ.

[shendelzare]

At level 32 I'm taking +20 Concentration. I forgot to add a skill point breakdown. I'll get around to it next weekend when I have the time to go through the build on a test character again to fine-tune craft weapon/armor points so I'll reach 127 in both if capped (+50).

I'll also look into 30 Fighter/5 Harper/5 Monk and 34 Fighter/5 Harper/1 Monk spreads. Regarding strength not being 60, I've been told that I need close to 140 AC to tank end-game stuff, so the 137 AC the build currently has would already be cutting it pretty close.

[rainbowdash]

Don't believe everything "you have been told" especially not on the forums otherwise u ll end up with a toon that is in need of any and every talent in the book and ends up streched out thin.

And that's not because some players are "better" or "worse" than others but its more of a playstyle thingy.

140 ac for example sounds excessive to me and if somebody would say its a must have on a tank to be able to tank "lategame" (which is a ambiguous term in itself) I would say they are exaggerating. I myself run a twohander that ends up with 135 ac in limbo (thats at 80 with SH AND girdle).

Point being. You will get a lot of feedback in the forums but u'll never know how much to trust it until u either tried it out first or u can identify with the persons playstyle who is providing the feedback.

[Deleted]

Nov 6, 2017 8:34:55 GMT simpetar said:

With only 56 str (at 80) you won't be able to safely stand up to normal mariliths without uuu or stat check gear and chances are that you will see (and contribute to) quite some paragons. Higher str also means more AB, which in turn will increase your chances against balors, when you disarm them faster.

You are thinking of Goristro, not Mariliths. From memory, there are 4 Goristro’s in the entire module and you will almost always have UUU up when you are facing them. 56 STR is very adequate, in fact it is the typical amount that many builds end with (eg: 2H Paladin or Battle Cleric, which take STR to 40 base -> 56 buffed).

I wouldn’t sweat too much about not having STR/DEX at 60+, it’s a 2Her not a BBoD. It’s true that a toon with ‘only’ 54 DEX is not 100% immune to Balor Whip, you might fail the check once per Abyss run. The reality is that most Abyss runs are 10-man Paragon stomps, so if you get dominated nothing will happen because the rest of the party will melt the Balor.

On another note to the OP, bear in mind that you have calculated your stats at Level 80, but I’m guessing your toon is not at that level yet.
101 AB sounds okay on paper (as a bare minimum), but if you make this toon at Level 68 (for example), your AB is only going to be 97 which sounds a little less nice. This is particularly relevant for Disarm.

[woqued]

I'd concur with Poliwhirl here - your ab will be quite lackluster for your Disarming / Knockdown dreams, and your dmg will severely suffer with this ab if you ever need to rely on Imp. Expertise. I'd recommend dropping your dex/ac a bit in favour of str/ab until closer to 80 for demihoods and paragon AB to kick in at least - and make up for lack of ac with your innate defenses elsewhere (parry conceal, edodge, gv pots (Always carry these!), harper gr pots, bbod rods(and these!), self-immute from parry, etc), and allow better and more versatile use of your other tricks in the bag. Pro tip: Scary balor? Scary elite maleb? Self-Immute on cd? Drink gv pot, drop bbod, flanksmash it down while using chokepoints (so it doesn't run off after your team instead of the tasty bbod). Works better than trusting luck or your teammates to be on your side.

Also, with your PWA bludgeoning will have some issues since it'll punish your already low ab. Basically your build has many tricks which heavily rely on AB, and many things to make up for a bit lower AC - but since there is an illusory "magical AC" you seemingly want to hit (which is honestly not possible pre-80 without giving up so much you'd be better off going 1h with non-monk offensive splash) you end up giving that ab away, which might end up biting your arse in the long run.

But this is all intuitive guesswork and your build will probably work very well regardless - it has such a solid base to begin with.

Recommendation for paragon feats as mentioned by dopple before: environmental adaptivity. If you run abyss/hells/limbopt1 a lot para disarm is pretty hot.

[shendelzare]

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm currently using a 1h and shield build (the other fighter build I posted), which I'll take to at least 2x demi (which probably means lvl 70+, at the very least) before reincarnating to 2h.
I'll try to do some tweaking to increase the AB at the cost of a few AC.