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Post by condude on Nov 26, 2017 21:36:32 GMT
In practice this would become 'punishment' for those people who have built up large banks and invested significant amounts of their time into HG. This would also ensure the departure of most of the 'vets' who have such resources, and currently carry runs for those who do not. While you may not see this as a big issue, many will. You might want to also consider the following... Right now, it is near impossible for vets to get an answer from the Devs on a basic point regarding issues with the current mod which may not be bugs but are definitely beyond irritating flaws. Based on one recent thread at least, it was impossible. There have been calls, for years, to put something in place to have more people developing and to actually move HG forward a little faster. That said we must all be grateful for everything that the Devs do for us out of the goodness of their own hearts. How about we think... that is how the problem is with one mod to develop. How much work will be done when there are two mods to develop? (EE + current HG.) How many gripes will there be when one gets an update and the other does not. What if the updates are different between the two? How will runs form on EE when you remove all the run-carrying vets, or on current when you remove the hope of 'new' players? How long will it be until the new and flash EE mod is the only one that the time-poor developers can find time to develop? How long will it take for the other, ignored version, to become empty? Given that climate of possible things to come, and the existing lack of dev-time, do you really want to further fracture the development time? If you say yes to this, you must remember that it may well generate more gripes about inactivity and absentee-leadership. That is, on top of the resentment and easily predictable /quit responses, due to the bank-possessing and run-carrying vets being relegated to a second tier status in mod progression. And yes... before Funky says it.... supposition... I meant run EEHG exactly the same as normal HG, but with the reset. The problem Acaos mentioned with transferring HG over to the new server is that they can't play together. I'm assuming that means that data gained in the EE version doesn't transfer over to non-EEHG, which would mean progress would have to be made separately, creating a huge mess. Instead, I proposed that EEHG be identical to normal HG, except with a clean slate. Different characters, banks, etc. on the two servers, but the exact same content. Updates would hit both servers equally. They would be the same mod run in two different places. It also would attract new players to the HG universe without devaluing previously made characters - the endgame runs would still take place on normal HG, but new players would be able to get started on an equal playing field. An issue I can foresee is that in the long run, it likely would devalue current gear, since at some point EEHG may begin to dominate normal HG. There are solutions for that though, including an eventual transfer between the servers if one began to predominate.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 22:02:06 GMT
The problem Acaos mentioned with transferring HG over to the new server is that they can't play together. I'm assuming that means that data gained in the EE version doesn't transfer over to non-EEHG, which would mean progress would have to be made separately, creating a huge mess. My understanding of the issue is that non-EE players are unable to log into the EE server, and vice-versa - the clients cannot interact. I don't think it has anything to do with data transfer, in fact they intend to make data transfer as easy as possible from non-EE -> EE. Splitting the server's population is problematic in a game like this, and IMO a far greater issue than "new players feeling like they are too far behind". It's not even a competitive game (I think I played one PvP event since I joined the server), so why does it matter if new players have less stuff than veterans?
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Post by condude on Nov 26, 2017 22:08:41 GMT
The problem Acaos mentioned with transferring HG over to the new server is that they can't play together. I'm assuming that means that data gained in the EE version doesn't transfer over to non-EEHG, which would mean progress would have to be made separately, creating a huge mess. My understanding of the issue is that non-EE players are unable to log into the EE server, and vice-versa - the clients cannot interact. I don't think it has anything to do with data transfer. Splitting the server's population is problematic in a game like this, and IMO a far greater issue than "new players feeling like they are too far behind". It's not even a competitive game (I think I played one PvP event since I joined the server), so why does it matter if new players have less stuff than veterans? This means that what I'm saying is a very plausible outcome - the only way to adapt HG to EE would be to have a clean slate on EEHG, right? You mention a split server population, but there might be some workarounds to get the new population on EE to at least play both to an extent. Inter-game run messages (if possible), might enable players with characters on both servers to find a run more easily. As for the new players wanting a clean slate thing, it makes a lot more sense that, if we are going to effectively have a second nearly identical HG in EE, we would get a lot more visibility there. I think it's a much easier sell to say "Come join the sleeker, nicer looking Higher Ground - a tried and true server, with the same fresh start that everyone's getting!" than "Come join the sleeker, nicer looking Higher Ground - a tried and true server, where it will take you years to catch up to much of the server population!"
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 22:18:44 GMT
What does "catch up" really mean? Why is it important for brand new players to have the same amount of stuff as people who have played for over 10 years? Why does there need to be an 'even playing field' for a game when we are all on the same team in the first place?
I think people really overrate the direct power gap between new players and veterans. Most endgame benefits are extremely front-loaded. Level 72 requires only 1/3rd of the XP compared to Level 80, and the only difference is +1 to all stats, +2 AB/saves and 2 Paragon feats (with the most important Paragon feats having already been taken).
A brand new player that sticks to one toon can get to Level 72 with a decent BUR race and a couple of demi-iterations pretty quickly, geared with ~average BURs and Sets. I honestly think the power gap between that new toon vs a maxed out Level 80 is not particularly large (probably comparable to the difference between a Level 57 and a Level 59). Skilled play has a far greater impact than that tiny power boost.
To me, we already have a reasonable balance of letting new players contribute while still providing a reward for playing longer.
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Post by condude on Nov 26, 2017 22:23:53 GMT
Do you actually, sincerely believe that people are equally fine with coming into a game with a huge power imbalance as joining one where there's minimal differentiation? In any case, isn't this the only real option if we want to port HG over to EE? Unless you're suggesting we just ignore this opportunity?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 22:31:55 GMT
I never said that people are equally fine. Veterans always benefit from being rewarded for playing longer and conversely, new players always benefit from those rewards being reduced. There has to be a balance so that new players can still contribute and enjoy the game while letting veterans feel that there is a reason to keep playing. In my opinion, we already have a good balance in that regard, as explained in my previous post.
To my eye, it seems that there are 3 available options: 1) Port the entire HG to EE; would require some extra work from staff, and force all current players to buy the EE, but probably have the best outcome assuming those two requirements can be met (which is difficult). 2) Ignore the EE; this requires zero effort from anyone, but would likely be the first nail in the coffin as Raj's post explains. 3) Try and run both at the same time; this requires just as much work as Option 1 but splits the server's population. I think Test's post was a good outline on what this might mean.
None of these options are great, which is why the EE is sort of scary.
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Post by condude on Nov 26, 2017 22:42:35 GMT
I still don't see a problem with having the EE version be more new player friendly - no one has anything, and the old one being focused on the later game. Saves effort on porting over the player data, and creates what I see as a long-run net positive. Split player base isn't a problem if we can draw a lot more players to the server.
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Post by TJ on Nov 26, 2017 22:54:27 GMT
I wouldn’t play the EE if I lost all of my progress. It’s the principle of the matter. Why should I pay for something that erases all of the hours I have poured into this game?
If the DM team wants to stand up a fresh EE compatible server, I’m all for it. But I won’t be moving over to play.
I’d happily pay for the EE though in order to reap the benefits, and think that anyone who plays HG regularly would do the same. $20 is not a steep price.
Ideally the devs of EE would offer a discount to members of PWs that need to be ported over to reduce the friction, but that hurts the EE devs.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 23:02:45 GMT
Split player base isn't a problem if we can draw a lot more players to the server. I have 7 toons, almost all of them are Level 80 with x7 Demi/x5 Prince Wins. If the EE is a clean slate then there is literally zero chance that I will play there long-term, I've simply invested too much time in my original toons. I suspect that the majority of veterans (not everyone, but most) have a similar view to me. A server split is problematic because it will greatly increase the decay rate of the 'old server' which contains most of the veterans, who we will lose permanently. If you can't see this, then I think your view is very short-sighted. Edit: My original feeling was impulsively strong. After some consideration, I'm not sure so about how I would feel about a clean slate.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 23:15:51 GMT
A reset for HG and moving over to EE means you're losing the majority of your existing population and no guarantee you gain many new, long-term players who ultimately replicate what the existing playerbase is now. As Poli said, the best solution is a direct port, if possible, as presently constituted, the entire player-base makes the jump with the mod and we all move to the flashier game with everything already earned and existing intact.
Any player who joins the new server and get's upset he can't be the best and doesn't acknowledge Poli's point on power-gap wouldn't have lasted long term anyway. The biggest advantage veterans have over new players is knowledge and skill. That is the gap. But, the knowledge and skill isn't the reward. The loot and bonuses are.
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Post by Test on Nov 27, 2017 0:13:04 GMT
I never said that people are equally fine. Veterans always benefit from being rewarded for playing longer and conversely, new players always benefit from those rewards being reduced. There has to be a balance so that new players can still contribute and enjoy the game while letting veterans feel that there is a reason to keep playing. In my opinion, we already have a good balance in that regard, as explained in my previous post. To my eye, it seems that there are 3 available options: 1) Port the entire HG to EE; would require some extra work from staff, and force all current players to buy the EE, but probably have the best outcome assuming those two requirements can be met (which is difficult). 2) Ignore the EE; this requires zero effort from anyone, but would likely be the first nail in the coffin as Raj's post explains. 3) Try and run both at the same time; this requires just as much work as Option 1 but splits the server's population. I think Test's post was a good outline on what this might mean. None of these options are great, which is why the EE is sort of scary. I actually edited a section out of my post which addressed another problem with the EE. Reading your comments I will add it below. I have been contacted by a group of formerly very well recognized NWN scripters who are actively setting up a team to port a module to EE and then find ways to 'get back in the game' and acquire players from the pool of those still playing NWN. Most of the scripters involved ran highly ranked Vault PWs. They contacted me asking if I wanted to join the 'team'. The point of this story is... splitting the player base into two modules where the vets will be effectively ignored and the newbies are left without help to manage the intricacies of HG's well customized systems would create a situation muck akin to shooting fish in a barrel for the raft of former mod-developers who are suddenly expressing interest in having another go with NWN and suddenly looking for a new player-base of NWN vets. I believe the plan, at this early stage in its formation, was to select one mod to port to EE and then work through transferring the signature script sets of all of their mods into that ported mod. I know it is totally pointless but my strong suggestion in the conversation that I had with them was gee... perhaps there could be a collective effort to see if a development council might be desired for porting and continuing to develop HG. We do know, however, that posts including that concept are ignored.
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Post by Test on Nov 27, 2017 0:16:49 GMT
My understanding of the issue is that non-EE players are unable to log into the EE server, and vice-versa - the clients cannot interact. I don't think it has anything to do with data transfer, in fact they intend to make data transfer as easy as possible from non-EE -> EE. I would argue that this is a complete red herring. Every NWN patch made things backwards incompatible and none of them were an issue for PWs (apart from breaking custom scripts occasionally). People updated and moved forward. $20 is two days worth of takeaway coffee.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 1:08:15 GMT
I definitely agree that it’s a tiny cost, and I’m happy to spend the money to upgrade (in fact I put in my pre-order the day this thread was made). But I can also understand that there will be other players who would rather not make that purchase.
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Post by desocupado on Nov 27, 2017 1:57:16 GMT
What does "catch up" really mean? Why is it important for brand new players to have the same amount of stuff as people who have played for over 10 years? Why does there need to be an 'even playing field' for a game when we are all on the same team in the first place? I think people really overrate the direct power gap between new players and veterans. Most endgame benefits are extremely front-loaded. Level 72 requires only 1/3rd of the XP compared to Level 80, and the only difference is +1 to all stats, +2 AB/saves and 2 Paragon feats (with the most important Paragon feats having already been taken). A brand new player that sticks to one toon can get to Level 72 with a decent BUR race and a couple of demi-iterations pretty quickly, geared with ~average BURs and Sets. I honestly think the power gap between that new toon vs a maxed out Level 80 is not particularly large (probably comparable to the difference between a Level 57 and a Level 59). Skilled play has a far greater impact than that tiny power boost. To me, we already have a reasonable balance of letting new players contribute while still providing a reward for playing longer. A progression that lasts years isn't reasonable in itself. I don't think HG would enjoy much success in NWN EE, without major changes. And such changes would already make it too different from HG.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 3:26:56 GMT
I still don't see a problem with having the EE version be more new player friendly - no one has anything, and the old one being focused on the later game. Saves effort on porting over the player data, and creates what I see as a long-run net positive. Split player base isn't a problem if we can draw a lot more players to the server. you keep missing the point that there doesnt need to be an even playing field and why should there be one (its not a competative game its a co operative one....), why should someone who's played for 5mins be on the same level as someone whos played for 10years, this is ridiculous and frankly stupid, is your goal a server of nubs who play 1-30 then leave cause they cant get access to anything good? new players benefit from experienced players in so many ways (run carrying, gear, money, races, knowledge, builds, auctions etc etc), without the vets (who i %100 guarentee would be gone if reset) noone will have any resources or game knowledge to lift anyone out of the dirt and none of the endgame content would ever be played, hg would die. people get discouraged when they try a new area and get destroyed over and over. theres no point drawing new players to the server if they dont stay.
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