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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 7:32:34 GMT
You're right that I did generalize too much. Most of what I said applies to players running 3 toons or more, while most of what you said applies to players running only 2 toons (which I am far less against). To my eye, there is no justifiable reason to run 3 toons or more, other than wanting to claim the free power boost which is too strong right now, or to enable an extra AFK-leecher which I think is not a good concept either. While other players may not take advantage of multi-boxing to the same degree as I did in terms of speed, there are definitely still some decent multi-boxers around. If EE is able to be kickstarted with new blood, then perhaps many of the reasons dual-boxing is currently needed might go away? It could be reintroduced later if necessary, but once it's allowed it's difficult to undo. of course you generalized too much, since what youre saying purely applies to you, no one else is doing that or wants to, 7 botting high level runs is boring and annoying id much rather play with others (but tbh i have done 6 bot high level runs solo, but its not fun and id rather sacrifice gear and have effective company but none was around), but as i already said, doing that on solo toons is not a possiblility, there is a need for me to use 3 or 4 toons since thats whats required to even get a run started during my timeslot, if i couldnt bot id have just had to log, ive no interest in running db for the 503847579 time. its so hard to read your posts since its so much hypocrisy as youve already stated yourself. you are the exception not the rule, you basically chose to play yourself out of the game and isolate yourself, but this is a problem thats solely yours. i didnt build my army to solo everything, i built it so i could fill the gaps that allow runs i wanna do to occur. even in busy timeslots i find myself having to run 2-3 toons to cover gaps.
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Post by chirality on Nov 30, 2017 8:15:33 GMT
it's not a problem that's solely his, the problem is owned by the community as a whole losing an endgame runner from the population is everyone's problem, coming from the guy going on about how he has to box to fill core roles cuz there's not enough ppl to share the job, it's a bit funny eh
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 8:23:58 GMT
Tru3, you’ve made a lot of fair points there. I posted impulsively and flew too far in the opposite direction; you and others are correct that there are many reasons why dual-boxing is helpful overall.
Before I continue further, I want to clarify that I didn’t intend for my post to be an attack on any individuals - for your part, I think you’re a great guy who is very generous and has an excellent attitude to the game.
You’re also correct that the numbers I posted are extreme and only really apply to myself. But I think the general principle still stands that for the most part, multi-boxing is significantly more efficient than not multi-boxing. It is debatable whether it is ‘too efficient’ or not, but I think that it currently is.
While dual-boxing may indeed be justifiable, I would need very compelling evidence to believe that anyone *NEEDS* to triple-box. I also think that’s it’s hard to deny that right now, a player choosing to stick to one account is crippling themselves hugely.
The point is, if an EE port is viable then we have the ability to make big changes that we normally could not (ie: effectively wipe by not porting vaults, and restrict boxing after a clean slate). Both porting vaults and allowing boxing are changes that are difficult to undo once they have been done, so I think we should be open-minded about giving it a shot - if it doesn’t work, it can always be done later right?
This is all obviously just my own opinion, ultimately the decision will come down to the server as a whole (and the staff, obviously). And hey, if we port vaults and keep boxing then I get to retain my wealth and power, so I’m okay with it either way; I just think that maybe we could make the server better than it is now.
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Post by bloodthirst on Nov 30, 2017 8:42:13 GMT
I would much prefer to play with other people but due to very low server pop in my tz mutli boxing is the only way to get a hell run off the ground. Without bots nothing happens anywhere frequently enough to make any progress. I have found multi boxing very hard and slow. It requires alot of skill and knowledge to pull off. To that end if you have the skill and knowledge and can make it work then I don't see why you shouldn't reap the rewards. As far as I can tell everyone can give it a go if they wish(?). As long as real players are not being denied spots on runs due to bots I feel they do much more good than harm for us off-peak players.
On the original topic I feel that a vault wipe and clean slate (assuming that its not for technical reasons or time limitations, just a pure decision) would be quite disrespectful of players invested time. The cost of ee is not much, however what I do not have much of is time. The thought of starting over again on a new ee server just makes me feel tired. I cannot see how I am disadvantaged in this game by another player having better gear than me. If it was due to computer stuff I don't understand then that's simply the way it would have to be.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 9:00:48 GMT
Tru3, you’ve made a lot of fair points there. I posted impulsively and flew too far in the opposite direction; you and others are correct that there are many reasons why dual-boxing is helpful overall. Before I continue further, I want to clarify that I didn’t intend for my post to be an attack on any individuals - for your part, I think you’re a great guy who is very generous and has an excellent attitude to the game. You’re also correct that the numbers I posted are extreme and only really apply to myself. But I think the general principle still stands that for the most part, multi-boxing is significantly more efficient than not multi-boxing. It is debatable whether it is ‘too efficient’ or not, but I think that it currently is. While dual-boxing may indeed be justifiable, I would need very compelling evidence to believe that anyone *NEEDS* to triple-box. The point is, if an EE port is viable then we have the ability to make big changes that we normally could not (ie: effectively wipe by not porting vaults, and restrict boxing after a clean slate). Both porting vaults and allowing boxing are changes that are difficult to undo once they have been done, so I think we should be open-minded about giving it a shot - if it doesn’t work, it can always be done later right? This is all obviously just my own opinion, ultimately the decision will come down to the server as a whole (and the staff, obviously). And hey, if we port vaults and keep boxing then I get to retain my wealth and power, so I’m okay with it either way; I just think that maybe we could make the server better than it is now. i do agree on some points, multi boxing is undeniably more efficient but for me personally id much rather work with a fun team when people are around and multibox when theres nobody there, i dont think removing the option to multibox will make any difference in the long term, limiting peoples options never does, ive seen a similar rule destroy the population on my old server and it never recovered, its not the answer people think it is. it seems to me that HG was always about options. and my post was not meant as an attack on you either (we've always gotten along and you helped me quite a bit when i was starting out), i apologise for that, im just (i think understandably) upset that so far in this thread its been suggested everything ive worked for should be deleted and i shouldnt be allowed to play the game how i do, by people who are in a much better (timeslot wise) or much worse (far less to lose) situation then i am.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 9:04:55 GMT
it's not a problem that's solely his, the problem is owned by the community as a whole losing an endgame runner from the population is everyone's problem, coming from the guy going on about how he has to box to fill core roles cuz there's not enough ppl to share the job, it's a bit funny eh im not gonna explain how badly you've missed all my points here bale, it should be pretty obvious....
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Post by Methes on Nov 30, 2017 9:47:45 GMT
I am a chronic forum lurker playing on HG for over 10 years with total playtime of maybe 2 years (on and off a lot). Living in middle Europe is terrible regarding party scheduling and I'm not really into investing more than 2 hours into a run so I prefer preLL/LL runs (yes, lame).
That being said I'm interested in getting my wife to play as AA (she loves archers) with me playing bard and sorc probably. Multiboxing is a must with my TZ although it's stresful, demanding and I'm not enjoying the game as much as playing a single char. With me being interested in barding I'm even more dependant on other players. I'd definitely be sad seeing that disabled entirely.
While being more casual player on HG, I'm definitely dedicated minmaxer in hardcore Minecraft with great experience in multiplayer and server wipes definitely bring fresh energy to those servers. Even though it's not a competitive game players still compete in reaching certain milestones and being the first ones to progress further so that's what would probably drive population after a wipe. The case is different however in lower time needed to reach everything (~2 years in MC) and no replayability as on HG where you create a new character.
Short term a wipe would probably bring more activity to HG but long term I don't think it would benefit the server. As someone already said, I am now more hesitant to start playing again with the possibility of wipe comming.
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Post by chirality on Nov 30, 2017 10:02:30 GMT
im not gonna explain how badly you've missed all my points here bale, it should be pretty obvious.... it would be impossible to miss your points, you've made them repeatedly and not exactly subtly i was just poking a bit of fun at the irony of telling poli he burned out and it's solely his problem, when part of the reason you multibox is because ppl like him burn out and disappear calm down, no one is trying to take anything away from you, least of all me. if "hey i wouldn't mind a reset and it makes sense in some ways" comes out as a distressing threat, i'm sorry, it's just the way i feel. for the record my wall earlier was just trying to say that *if* EE was a fresh vault it wouldn't be so bad, at the time i posted that there was a lot of "i'll quit and hg will die" so i felt it was a good juncture to mention a dissenting opinion. i know a couple vets that feel the same, and obviously there's a few others that disagree, np, i don't intend to be reckless or irresponsible with other people's treasured time investments, just trying to view the possibility of it in a positive light. ofc part of me is terrified at the thought of losing my vault, but at the same time i think it would help breathe some fresh life into the game for a few people that don't play much anymore and would enjoy restarting. obviously i'm not a boxer and i don't have a lot of freetime for hg lately, even with lots more playtime it was still slow progress due to timezone/compatibility issues, so i could play hg for years more and still not get the tags and lewt that some boxers have, but at the same time i'd choose in a heartbeat to play with those burnouts and lose my years of work rather than keep my vault and not play with them. i empathize with and appreciate your emotion about the concept of wiping and starting fresh...if you think you put a lot into this game and have a lot to lose, how do you think i feel about my vault? let's take a step back and relax, after all we might have new EE players around in the near future reading these threads as for multiboxing i have nothing against it, i don't think any time should be spent removing or restricting it, i'm more concerned with the impact on hg if boxing isn't possible or does require extra dev effort (as poli said, ez answer: no), which is all my earlier post bringing up multiboxing was about (someone might have misread it i dunno) and tbh a couple hours ago i wrote up a 2nd giant wall that i decided not to post about how much i benefited from boxers and blah blah, i don't think it's worth re-hashing in detail but you should know the takeaway was that i don't agree with the opinion that it should be restricted moving forward and if anything i'm grateful boxing existed and i'm grateful for the boxers that made my endgame career possible. i want to stimulate thoughts on "what if we can't multibox in EE like we can in 1.69" and what it would mean for the game if that ends up being the case, not argue about whether it should be allowed or not.
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Post by desocupado on Nov 30, 2017 10:49:27 GMT
What if... Multiboxing DINDNT require multiple accounts or game instances in nwnee? I mean a dm can do stuff similar to that by possessing different units...
This game is so slow that playing 2 is sort of trivial - if multiple character character support was built in it would be simpler to put whatever restriction you would want including more rewards with more players.
On top of that you can share rewards like xp tags account-wise - making it easier to adjust middle run if someone drops.
On top of that it allows some other servers to be more interesting or even the campaign.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 11:20:12 GMT
im not gonna explain how badly you've missed all my points here bale, it should be pretty obvious.... it would be impossible to miss your points, you've made them repeatedly and not exactly subtly i was just poking a bit of fun at the irony of telling poli he burned out and it's solely his problem, when part of the reason you multibox is because ppl like him burn out and disappear calm down, no one is trying to take anything away from you, least of all me. if "hey i wouldn't mind a reset and it makes sense in some ways" comes out as a distressing threat, i'm sorry, it's just the way i feel. for the record my wall earlier was just trying to say that *if* EE was a fresh vault it wouldn't be so bad, at the time i posted that there was a lot of "i'll quit and hg will die" so i felt it was a good juncture to mention a dissenting opinion. i know a couple vets that feel the same, and obviously there's a few others that disagree, np, i don't intend to be reckless or irresponsible with other people's treasured time investments, just trying to view the possibility of it in a positive light. ofc part of me is terrified at the thought of losing my vault, but at the same time i think it would help breathe some fresh life into the game for a few people that don't play much anymore and would enjoy restarting. obviously i'm not a boxer and i don't have a lot of freetime for hg lately, even with lots more playtime it was still slow progress due to timezone/compatibility issues, so i could play hg for years more and still not get the tags and lewt that some boxers have, but at the same time i'd choose in a heartbeat to play with those burnouts and lose my years of work rather than keep my vault and not play with them. i empathize with and appreciate your emotion about the concept of wiping and starting fresh...if you think you put a lot into this game and have a lot to lose, how do you think i feel about my vault? let's take a step back and relax, after all we might have new EE players around in the near future reading these threads as for multiboxing i have nothing against it, i don't think any time should be spent removing or restricting it, i'm more concerned with the impact on hg if boxing isn't possible or does require extra dev effort (as poli said, ez answer: no), which is all my earlier post bringing up multiboxing was about (someone might have misread it i dunno) and tbh a couple hours ago i wrote up a 2nd giant wall that i decided not to post about how much i benefited from boxers and blah blah, i don't think it's worth re-hashing in detail but you should know the takeaway was that i don't agree with the opinion that it should be restricted moving forward and if anything i'm grateful boxing existed and i'm grateful for the boxers that made my endgame career possible. i want to stimulate thoughts on "what if we can't multibox in EE like we can in 1.69" and what it would mean for the game if that ends up being the case, not argue about whether it should be allowed or not. yet you clearly still have. by even *suggesting* a wipe might be fun, is *suggesting* wiping everything ive built, if i dont argue against it and noone else does then one day i wake up and everythings gone, so despite your trolling ill still argue quite strongly against it, because im strongly against it. if i dont, im the idiot who didnt speak up when he had the chance. i dont recall anything you said about boxing and i wasnt speaking to you, i was speaking about poli's argument, until you trolled. i think maybe you need to calm down, your jumping in the middle of other peoples arguments for no apparent reason, poli by no means needs you to speak for him bale. i merely provided a counter argument to his. if your concerned about what new players will think going back and reading threads, go through some of your old posts, dont talk down to me. im a hothead, if i feel strongly about something ill speak strongly about something, ive no problems with the repercusions of that.
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Post by chainlink on Nov 30, 2017 13:16:26 GMT
I am a chronic forum lurker playing on HG for over 10 years with total playtime of maybe 2 years (on and off a lot). Living in middle Europe is terrible regarding party scheduling and I'm not really into investing more than 2 hours into a run so I prefer preLL/LL runs (yes, lame). That being said I'm interested in getting my wife to play as AA (she loves archers) with me playing bard and sorc probably. Multiboxing is a must with my TZ although it's stresful, demanding and I'm not enjoying the game as much as playing a single char. With me being interested in barding I'm even more dependant on other players. I'd definitely be sad seeing that disabled entirely. While being more casual player on HG, I'm definitely dedicated minmaxer in hardcore Minecraft with great experience in multiplayer and server wipes definitely bring fresh energy to those servers. Even though it's not a competitive game players still compete in reaching certain milestones and being the first ones to progress further so that's what would probably drive population after a wipe. The case is different however in lower time needed to reach everything (~2 years in MC) and no replayability as on HG where you create a new character. Short term a wipe would probably bring more activity to HG but long term I don't think it would benefit the server. As someone already said, I am now more hesitant to start playing again with the possibility of wipe comming. AAs got a good boost with the last tweak, they now do some serious focussed damage when using the Dustbone/Phleg bows, Xd20 (with X being dependent on number of archer levels) for the elemental/exotic component of the bow in question.
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Post by TJ on Nov 30, 2017 14:00:13 GMT
Since none of you will refrain from beating the dead horse that is multi boxing, lets go into some technical reasons as to why it's (probably) never going to be changed. 1. The only change made to enable multi-boxing is the modified executable, which was not made by a member of the HG team IIRC. The HG team did _nothing_ to specifically enable boxing. 2. Most, if not all of you connect to the internet through a Router, which is a device owned by your ISP. Your ISP assigns that router an IP address, and ALL traffic coming from any machine connected to this router has the same IP address to the world. Don't believe me? Go to whatsmyip.com/ from your computer and phone on WiFi. The same number will display. 3. Households can have more than one person. I grew up with 6 people in my house. Three of us played NWN simultaneously back in the day. 4. This means that there were three valid, not-multi-boxed connections coming from the same IP address using different CD Keys. The only way to reliably break multi-boxing is to limit the number of connections from a single IP, which also limits the number of humans that can play per household. It's easy to say that no human should ever be able to play more than 2 toons, which i dont necessarily disagree with, but there's no simple way from a networking level to block multi-boxing without also blocking the number of humans that can play within a single household. So keep that in mind when you are talking about blocking multi-boxing. You're also talking about blocking households where two people will play with each other.
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Post by diemex on Nov 30, 2017 14:19:07 GMT
2. Most, if not all of you connect to the internet through a Router, which is a device owned by your ISP. Your ISP assigns that router an IP address, and ALL traffic coming from any machine connected to this router has the same IP address to the world. Don't believe me? Go to whatsmyip.com/ from your computer and phone on WiFi. The same number will display. 3. Households can have more than one person. I grew up with 6 people in my house. Three of us played NWN simultaneously back in the day. 4. This means that there were three valid, not-multi-boxed connections coming from the same IP address using different CD Keys. It's actually much worse than that. Some ISPs proxy connections and they appear to come from the same IP. My friend who lives above the arctic circle in Iqaluit has this type of connection, basically there are easily a hundred people in his community who all have the same 'IP' as seen by others on the internet. I'm not sure how widespread this phenomenon is but can you imagine locking out an entire community just because their ISP funnels all traffic (kind of like a VPN) through one proxy point.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 14:43:23 GMT
by even *suggesting* a wipe might be fun, is *suggesting* wiping everything ive built, if i dont argue against it and noone else does then one day i wake up and everythings gone I think this is a bit of an exaggeration of what the situation is - first of all, it’s all just a hypothetical discussion, and second and more importantly, strictly speaking it’s not a ‘deletion’ - for the most part we are discussing what might happen if a port to EE is never completed, *not* if Classic is suddenly deleted. All of your toons (and mine too) would still be there, we would just be playing them the way we normally do instead of having to pay $20 to buy EE and playing them there. Since none of you will refrain from beating the dead horse that is multi boxing, lets go into some technical reasons as to why it's (probably) never going to be changed. To me it’s not the same old beating the dead horse, because traditionally ‘multi-boxing’ in these discussions has been synonymous with ‘dual-boxing’; the prevalence of triple-and-above boxing (or ‘bot armies’) has increased hugely, and that is really what I was talking about and IMO has not been brought up much. You’ve made some excellent points about why it would be difficult to add a scripted solution to restrict multi-boxing. This does not necessarily mean that a rule could never be made, though. —- I think this topic has been a bit emotional for everyone, and the discussion I brought up was probably a bit premature and should be left for a bit further in the future. My apologies to anyone feeling stressed about it.
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Post by sabregirl on Nov 30, 2017 15:39:56 GMT
So I've given the vault ideas some thought as has Acaos and we're considering the following, middle of the road, option:
Instead of a wipe, giving longtime players of HG, reincarnation slots on the new EE version equivalent to the characters in their HG classic vaults. This would include tags, likely subraces and their experience. It wouldn't include gear or bank vaults or wallet balance. We would likely give some level appropriate starter gear. So in a sense a fresh start, but not a wipe. A "noobs in hell" experience but without losing the main source of player progress: levels and tags.
I'm guessing we would keep some HG classic servers running at the very least for a while and no characters on classic would be deleted. I'm also thinking we might give some incentives to new players/early adopters of the EE edition, bonus xp and the like.
As far as multiboxing we could simply limit the number of connections per IP to maybe something like 4 which would mean two people in a single house could dual box or a family of four could play together. I think that would be reasonable rather than the 5-10 we sometimes see now. But of course there are still ways around that limitation using proxy servers, multiple ISPs and the like. Something to consider going forward.
-S
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