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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 2, 2017 4:02:05 GMT
If you think this is such an incredible game ruining mechanic, wouldn't you at least lead by example "at some point"? Isn't this literally the question that was addressed in the Karsus quote? And the answer is "no", a person is absolutely allowed to say that something is too efficient while still using it until it's fixed. I don't regard it as anything like Karsus + RG; that's comparing apples to oranges. One is an ingame issue of balancing class/progression, and one is about one person playing multiple toons, all of which are subject to ingame balancing considerations. More ontological confusion. I'm not saying you don't have a valid point in there somewhere, but the reasoning you are advancing isn't getting you there. Again, though, the odds are that we aren't going to be able to do anything about it easily, if at all, so botting discussions belong in the other thread someone started on the topic. Funky
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Post by diemex on Dec 2, 2017 10:44:24 GMT
I went check his account activity to remember who was this guy and found one of the best threads ever HEY YOU SUCK, started by a random quote from him I totally do not remember that post.... or most of my posts in my past lol. I'm 47 and my memory is acting like it's 87. But I checked the thread and was glad that I represented myself well enough to not be embarrassed by it lol.
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Post by Epsilon on Dec 3, 2017 12:57:32 GMT
Awesome news, I'm glad that you guys will actively take a look at porting HG to EE!
Something that I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread:
- Full wipes appear regularly in hack and slash games like Diablo 2 and Path of Exile, where some gear is just as hard (if not harder) to acquire. However the positive experience of "starting fresh" vastly compensate for the loss, and the wiped game modes are by far the most popular amongst players (and all those games still give you the option to play the game on the "permanent" realm with all your hard-acquired items and characters).
While I understand that the current active players don't want to lose hard-earned progress, as someone who hasn't played in 3 years and has demi/prince tags, I would rather start from fresh and re-learn everything from scratch than come back to powerful items and getting carried by those (or other overleveled players) until I'm 80. If we assume that EE will bring back many players who haven't played in years, I'm of the opinion that a fresh experience is far more likely to entice them to stay than coming back and seeing everybody glowing and zooming through most of the game while they crawl back and re-learn the game (the complexity of HG is not something that you can "pick up and go"). And if there's one thing that EE can do as a "once in a lifetime opportunity" in NWN, it's bringing back players (maybe even new ones).
The only progression that I would be sad to lose are my BUR races (I don't like the concept of power being tied to races anyway, but that's not a discussion for this topic), otherwise I'd be much more happy to come back to an empty vault than to my current one full of BURs and enough gold to carry any new toon (and before someone counter with the argument "you could just erase your items or make a new account", a key part of the enjoyment of a fresh start is the fresh economy for everybody)
As for multi-account, something to consider is that each CD-key of EE costs $20, so if they indeed give you such a benefit it becomes pay-to-win in some fashion and not everybody will be on even footing (assuming you can only log one character per key)
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Post by diemex on Dec 3, 2017 15:51:06 GMT
- Full wipes appear regularly in hack and slash games like Diablo 2 and Path of Exile, where some gear is just as hard (if not harder) to acquire. There is no such thing as full wipes on Path of exile, on PoE when a current event/challenge (whatever they call it now) is over the characters and loot all get transferred to the standard campaign that is never wiped. The relevance here is that HG-EE would be the new 'event' if we must have it. And classic HG would be the standard campaign and hopefully not lost to us.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 3, 2017 16:12:20 GMT
Beamdog reports Whirlwind and other modes (think defensive casting, counterspell) are fixed in EE. This should give us a lot more tools to use in class balancing. Funky
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Post by Epsilon on Dec 3, 2017 18:59:33 GMT
There is no such thing as full wipes on Path of exile, on PoE when a current event/challenge (whatever they call it now) is over the characters and loot all get transferred to the standard campaign that is never wiped. The relevance here is that HG-EE would be the new 'event' if we must have it. And classic HG would be the standard campaign and hopefully not lost to us. That's what I meant when I said that there's a "permanent" realm for you to still play your old characters. But it's important to note that the "event" mode wiped every trimester or so is the default mode and by far the most popular, most people don't mind re-aquiring loot and XP after a wipe (they even long for it), as the journey is more fun than the destination.
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Post by tega091 on Dec 3, 2017 21:39:23 GMT
...most people don't mind re-aquiring loot and XP after a wipe (they even long for it)... The games where they do resets/wipe as previously posted have "seasonal" leagues and nothing is completely wiped... As someone who has over 6k hours on D3 and close to 3k on PoE both those are a completely different game than HG(one has class specific loot that and only set loot being hellfire amulets when considering end game, and the other has a much faster crafting system and the ability to change you build quite quickly[an afternoon at worst really] according to what items you have acquired, as well as both are actually solo friendly), and most of what you loose can be acquired in the first few days(gear not nessecarly min/maxed but functional in those games "end game content") for dedicated players... on HG it would take at best a month to acquire similar but lesser gear than what 95% of the player base on HG has atm. Comparing games of the like are like comparing apples to oranges.
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pahg
Peasant
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Post by pahg on Dec 4, 2017 4:40:20 GMT
A few points:
1) I don't really expect NWN EE to offer much over what we already have at least in terms of graphics.
2) The only point I can see in migrating to NWN EE is to try to pick up new players. Whilst a laudable goal this is going to be difficult to achieve and must be done without pissing off current players.
3) So, port characters; chests; and wallets from the current HG. Try not to lose anything like e.g. bots (living in NZ bots are pretty much essential at many times of day; I struggle to use them and am in awe of people who can solo tough dungeons using them).
4) HG will always be hard for new players: there is a big learning curve because it is so different (and in my opinion much better) than vanilla NWN 1. There are lots of built in biases which make them less useful than vets (items; races; game knoledge) which may make them feel useless and therefore likely to leave.
5) A few suggestions that might help:
- Better information e.g. a simplified wiki builds page which talks about core classes, build goals, and has a few current good open race builds. In particular an uptodate HG version of the spreadsheet character builder would be very useful. As would improving the test build facility: allow players to create test builds for any subrace; allow them to gain tags, demi, double demi etc benefits; allow access to asmo and XR items. In short give (new) players reasons to enthuse and to play for the long game.
- Make reincarnation simpler e.g. remove the two book requirement. Possibly keep the pre immortal rules for post too.
- Make all subraces useful at all levels by adding a heirachy of improved versions (superior, elite, etc) for each subrace. Automatically give a character a book for an improved version of their race when they achieve particular goals (levels, tags, quests, etc).
- Try levelling the playing field for pre imortal characters: a character cant access their player vault or wallet until becoming immortal; remove the xp crystals; make the pre immortal dungeons harder (and hence more interesting).
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Post by fergusflatnose on Dec 6, 2017 13:30:03 GMT
From Raj
Down right scary how accurate this is from my experience. Wow. Well done sir.
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Post by tega091 on Dec 7, 2017 3:34:55 GMT
I think another thing that may contribute to new players giving up is for them it can probably be overwhelming to run with some of the "server big timers", some of them probably feel constantly judged knowing that if they make to many mistakes(some of them they aren't even aware of as being mistakes due to lack of knowledge) they may not be invited back. This honestly also affects the rate at which they "get involved" too. Their are multiple degrees of "new players". There are new players to the server and players that have been around a while that can be considered "new players" in some of the end game zones. Take limbo I.E. there are people that have played for YEARS and not even been there yet and when they finally might get a chance they are relying on people to help them and not be super judgemental on their first few times there as they may not understand the zone completely even after 2 or 3 runs. I think part of the problem is how fast players are to place "value" on X player by sometimes just 1 or 2 runs anywhere in the mod with them. I personally am not this kind of player, but I know for a fact that this does exsist currently(Even if people ask who they are I wont post and tarnish their character on the forum, people on the servers know everyone else's character).
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Post by Raj on Dec 7, 2017 10:42:24 GMT
To end on the wrong list ( mine) is a consequence of being inept or toxic for years, a common occurrence in any community that runs long enough but especially in the gaming ones. I don't buy the '50 shades of noob' definition, you are confusing devoted gamers with casual ones there imo, and the latter should not complain if they can't get into content that is tailored for the former ones, the mod is big enough and some people here have had fun playing 1-40 for years. Legit newbies are actually harmed by the dragging mechanics that take place when the content is approached by overlevelled people because their quick xp gain is not matched by in-game knowledge and items gain, so they definitely show unprepared for higher level content: teaching somebody 'how to abyss' is a lot simpler if you don't have to start explain what a on-hit infliction is or why some monster heals. Running anything different than desert/db/thids in a level appropriate party pre-55 is an almost lost practice, and even more 'modern' runs that were designed to introduce hell+ mechanics are more often than not farmed for xp by a 70+ caster dragging his 5 xp needing bots and maybe a couple of -quickly ruined- newbies. I can dream about a fresh start, or even just a fresh server to lure new players that want to experience the mod for how it is balanced (heck we have a roleplay server where people never roleplayed, could use that one) before merging with the rest of the population (I guess, after hitting the reinc light), but this like most other discussions here is moot and is better to toy with the mechanics we already have in place: shackling. The mechanic for shackling is alright, just needs to be tuned a bit for paragon levels see here. It could be made more relevant for the LL: instead of just a way to help a Immo and farm some PHs, give bigger xp/loot incentive if players past 40 are still in the 6 levels range, and even more if they're under the designed cap for the area to promote balanced parties where you're forced to contribute/learn if you want to succeed and reap worthy rewards.
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Post by Liareth on Dec 7, 2017 12:34:51 GMT
It might be helpful to get the opinion of an brand new player, since the EE migration is, at its core, about them.
I started playing here very recently - and I love it so far. I really enjoy the depth and breadth of the server. I love how much there is to unlock. I love the progression systems and the loot system. I love the reincarnation system. There are some areas which I feel could be improved, but all in all, the core systems backing the game, at least from the perspective of a new player, are exceptional. When I play, I feel like I'm playing a better DDO, or a different-but-awesome Diablo.
I'm lucky enough to be playing with my girlfriend. This fact softens some of the concerns I would have with the server if I were starting alone, which is how most new players will start. I'm not every new player, but this is how I see things:
- When I think about multiboxing on HG, I feel intimidated and a little overwhelmed. There are two reasons for this.
The first reasons is because, as a gamer, I am oriented towards efficiency. I have played many MMOs at a high level. That's just how I naturally play. Because of my style of play, and given how profitable multiboxing seems to be here, I feel compelled to do it. I'm not sure if this is a bad thing or not yet - after all, NWN is a slow game. It's easy to multibox. But it's intimidating, too, because I know that the way I am playing at the moment is inefficient.
The second reason comes down to the social aspect of the server. A large part of HG's appeal, to me, is exploring the content with others, and showing off all the cool stuff I've found. If I wasn't interested in socialising with others I'd just play some single player roguelike instead. I want to player with others - not by myself - and a group filled with bots is practically playing by myself.
- I want to be able to find groups for lower level content and actually experience that content without the content being trivialised by being carried through it. Thankfully, since I'm duoing, I have an advantage here over most new players. But the impression I get from the forums is that it's going to be very difficult to find people who want to experience this with me.
- I think a vault wipe coinciding with the EE migration would be great for the server. It's easy for me to say this. I don't have much on HG yet, after all. I have always been a fan of vault wipes, though.
In the past I've played on servers which had regular wipes - Anphillia comes to mind - and I've always felt that wipes breathe new life into the server. I have also played on servers with no wipes, such as Arelith, and I strongly believe that it leads to stagnation. For what it's worth, I have one of the, if not the best geared WM on Arelith, and I would support a vault wipe there, too.
From my newbie perspective, the best solution would be to transfer all account-wide progression from 1.69 to EE, but completely reset any character-specific progress. Everybody gets to start fresh but veterans get to keep all of their cool subraces (and maybe other account-wide progression that I don't even know exists yet) and can play them right away.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 12:50:41 GMT
Hi Liareth, welcome to the server! Thanks for sharing your perspective. It's great to see that you're having such a positive experience so far The first reasons is because, as a gamer, I am oriented towards efficiency. I have played many MMOs at a high level. That's just how I naturally play. Because of my style of play, and given how profitable multiboxing seems to be here, I feel compelled to do it.This is a good summary of my own motivation to utilise multi-boxing. There is not really any account-wide progression (outside of subrace tagging as you already mentioned), and even that makes up a very small amount of 'total progression' in my opinion. There is practically no difference between a total wipe and a wipe that preserves subrace tags. I think a total loss of progression would hurt a lot of the existing players here. Whichever way we choose to go forward, it needs to properly respect the time that those players have dedicated to HG. My own suggestion ( here) involves a splitting between existing player data and 'fresh start' players, with the option to merge them again in the future. As a new player, how does that sound from your perspective?
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Post by Liareth on Dec 7, 2017 13:05:38 GMT
My own suggestion ( here) involves a splitting between existing player data and 'fresh start' players, with the option to merge them again in the future. As a new player, how does that sound from your perspective? I have two thoughts on this. - From the perspective of a new player, it would be a shame to be segregated from the existing player base. - From the perspective of a server admin, the thought of willingly splitting my community in two terrifies me. Especially splitting it between old and new players. I'd prefer an all-or-nothing option over a middle ground like that. I think you might be onto something, though. With a minor tweak ... What if you left 1.69 HG as it was, for now, and spooled up a brand new 1.74 HG, hosting both at once. - 1.69 would continue as it is. - 1.74 would be completely fresh. And then, join them together as you suggested - but make it an optional one-way transfer that can only happen at a certain point. For example ... - All character transfers are naked characters. - Somebody on 1.74 gets x tag. Now all characters on 1.69 that have the x tag (but none more difficult than it) can transfer. - Somebody on 1.74 hits level 80. Levels 80s can now transfer over, subject to the above tag requirement. - Chests can be transferred one-way from 1.69 to 1.74 so long as the items within match some criteria, maybe item value, maybe rarity, maybe dropped location, maybe tags. Something to ensure that the items being transferred over don't exceed the average power level of something that is in use on 1.74. After some period of time, all transfers are unlocked and happen automatically, and 1.69 shuts down. tl;dr: Make sure that no vets can bring insane gear into the world until the insane gear is already in the world.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 13:13:16 GMT
Especially splitting it between old and new players. I'll just highlight that calling it a 'new player server' vs 'old player server' would be an over-simplification. Some of the strongest existing players are keen for a fresh start; as you said it would be breathing new life into a stale game for us. I also suspect that many of the players who are against a wipe would enjoy a fresh start world more than they expect... as long as it was a free choice and they haven't had their content deleted forever (losing content against their will would hurt, a lot). That's why giving players a choice appeals so much to me. But you have rightfully brought up some of the associated issues that may come along with it.
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