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Post by drunkenboastor on Dec 2, 2017 5:52:27 GMT
I thought loot roll was already modified by contribution, new guy with more deaths than kills always rolls first.
Multi boxers don't have to worry about wasting time loot splitting because they can "solo" everything, so loot roll modifications is not really relevant to multi box discussion.
Do you think it is acceptable that a few multi boxing players are the only ones that will successfully farm new content with frequency?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 2, 2017 6:44:33 GMT
I thought loot roll was already modified by contribution, new guy with more deaths than kills always rolls first. Multi boxers don't have to worry about wasting time loot splitting because they can "solo" everything, so loot roll modifications is not really relevant to multi box discussion. That was directed at the incentive issue Raj raised here: I don't want to sound hypocrytal but realist. I've been dual-boxing everything the server had to offer pre-limbo with the exception of Orcus, breaking the wand ending, and the Nessus coil. My abosorc and shifter did each 150+ millions xp duoing the aboleth run, and I still think that was a better time investment than trying to organize full party runs for the 1 in 30 chance (cuz of 33% droprate) that the TA would go to me. Assuming that were actually the case, yes, since multi-boxing is not restricted to some elite few. I don't think that's accurate, though, and I also think it points to a more structural factor Raj and others already raised: the massive power gap between newcomers and vets. That is going to be a factor in any PW/MMORPG where there are play incentives for 1000s of hours of gameplay, and is inevitably going to lead to the divided opinions you see here, with many haves on one side and many have nots on another, whether the issue is botting or vault-wiping. Of course, not all of the opinions are so easily classified, as there's narrow, short-term self-interest, and broader (and I would argue more self-aware and enlightened) self-interest. I think a more accurate statement of your side of things is that new players are not going to want to invest the time that old players spent to level (a decade plus, in some cases!), and that multiboxing is one way to rapidly level an account/key and get tons of gear. Another option, if we are able to detect botting, would be to tweak xp and loot incentives by devaluing bots in the xp/loot equations, on some kind of logarithmic scale. Again, incentives rather than rules (and again, only if we can detect em). Doing this to match ips is an option, though it would hurt couples as has been noted. So, multiboxers would still get more loot/xp by playing more than one toon, just much less so than at present. But, they could still use those toons individually in runs at no disadvantage, ensuring that at least some positive aspects of botting are not penalized/dis-incented. Funky
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Post by tega091 on Dec 2, 2017 8:07:00 GMT
~~Another thing that is over look is they are not "botting"(botting infers that they are using a program to play the game for them...) they are multiboxing(they are still playing X characters its not like the computer does it for them), from someone who has multiboxed it may not be as simple as it sounds... it takes a good amount of extra effort to play multiple accounts than just one. It is a skill that takes time and is acquired. It also doesn't happen over night. It may not seem fair but it still takes more effort/dedicated time then some people realize. At the end of the day the multiboxers still put in the same amount of effort that a party of the same size would have had to put in(which is a large factor into loot dropped is it not?), difference is they have learned to managed it across 2 or more accounts(ok some cases the multiboxer may not being actively playing all accounts) but more often then not they have to to complete said run.
~~As brought up as before though 1 major benefit of multiboxing is people that get in on the runs can typically bring whatever they are to as multiboxers can typically cover all cores, would it be that fun to be said sorry you have to bring X character or you can't come when that character doesnt benefit at all from the run tag/xp wise when you have other characters that need tag/xp?
~~Also pointed out multiboxing allows for more variety in build no? Isn't that one of the goal of a highly customized mod?
~~Thinking that multiboxing is the cause of boredom IMO is kind of silly... without multiboxing certain parties would be restricted to much low tier runs and IMO that would result in a much quicker boredom of the game. Fact of the matter is HG is a grindy game, doing the same thing will eventually have its wear and tare, and without different scenery it will occur at a much faster pace.
The fact is that some players thirst for other things than others. A perfect example and much respect to him is johann who speed runs immo(solo if i may add). Some others enjoy doing high end runs that wouldn't even be possible for them if they didn't resort to multiboxing. The fact is yes post hell and beyond is not soloable by 1 character and trust me when i say there isn't always people to form the correct group without, that to me justifies it. Saying "oh it we banned it then their could be more progression with the newer players and larger parties" is like saying "If I see a rainbow there could be a pot of gold at the end of it". I mean yea it could be a possibility, but(and more likely) another possibility is that the newer players still are missing the knowledge to build/play said character to the required proficiency that is required for the run, groups fail more often people get frustrated and stop playing all together. Greedy is a very minor factor for some people multiboxing and while it may be some peoples drive to multibox I think that should tell you enough of their character and once those few people figure out how to do a run with just their character together will most likely not bring a risk to the party anyways.
Keep in mind with this post I am not calling anyone out or attempting to make this personal quite the opposite actually. Just covering a few arguements that have been made and a few realistic outcomes while attempting to show why I don't think it nearly as large of problem as people think it is. There will always be exceptions to either side and frankly I personally don't see realistic solution to the "problem" being fashioned anytime soon or without a big sacrifice to the current community.
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Post by chirality on Dec 2, 2017 9:05:26 GMT
afaik the term bot never inferred that meaning on hg (despite other gaming common definition), it was just an ez word that got popular for "alt acc toon"
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Post by desocupado on Dec 2, 2017 11:30:56 GMT
After seeing how raj put it. Isn't the core of the issue making random pick up groups profitable and fun?
1 - loot split and loot scarcity (making you not want to play with more people because you lose loot) 2 - power creep versus irrelevant content (creating a "I'm slacking' carry me" culture because it's not fun to play a game where you have 15 less D.C. with you spells)
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Personally I think that a D3 expansion economy solution would work - independent account specific drops that cannot be traded (we kill asmo, everyone can roll an asmo sword for himself) but trading is very limited (stuff could get account bound after a little while, D3 uses 2 hours) while drop rates are very generous.
Basically as long as people don't cause wipes by themselves - anyone would be welcome in any party.
But then I don't really care about trading (even juicy randomized gear).
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About the power creep... I would rather see level cap being reverted to 60 (and level 40-60 stats difference being more akin to 60-80) while mobs from higher areas get reduced stats proportional to that. Personally I enjoy more gaining relevant feats (epic spell (focus), planar turning, paragon spell knowledge - than those slow and continuous numerous numeric advantages).
Some stat and skill bonuses could be moved to class features and LL tags. To make vets more likely to join new people.
And have more hard mode options in level 60 content. In hells it could be a demi count increase). Having different tags for those modes would be cool (better tag bonus for normal mode and somewhat better loot for hard mode, perhaps upon boss or map completion).
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Post by diemex on Dec 2, 2017 15:46:41 GMT
After seeing how raj put it. Isn't the core of the issue making random pick up groups profitable and fun? 1 - loot split and loot scarcity (making you not want to play with more people because you lose loot) 2 - power creep versus irrelevant content (creating a "I'm slacking' carry me" culture because it's not fun to play a game where you have 15 less D.C. with you spells) I have not progressed all that far, my highest is 61 and tagged up to Dis. But I can say despite not having the top end stats that I never once not enjoyed the game. And maybe I was just lucky... but every run I was on I felt "included". I never felt like I was slacking, I was given good information (what dmg to use, what rings to wear) for each part of the run. Loot is great... we all love it... yummy BURs but it's never been the driving force behind my gaming... having fun was priority #1. All this 10man box team stuff seems more like work than fun if you ask me. For the points you mentioned, (1) seems kind of sad... are people really being left off runs because it means smaller loot shares at the split ? (2) I don't know why having the absolute best stats = fun. For me the fun is the journey... getting there... without setting any kind of goal. Has the HG community really changed that much over the years that I've been away, where people now covet loot shares above companionship and no longer take the time to teach others how to do the various maps ?
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Post by desocupado on Dec 2, 2017 16:43:54 GMT
I have not progressed all that far, my highest is 61 and tagged up to Dis. But I can say despite not having the top end stats that I never once not enjoyed the game. And maybe I was just lucky... but every run I was on I felt "included". I never felt like I was slacking, I was given good information (what dmg to use, what rings to wear) for each part of the run. Loot is great... we all love it... yummy BURs but it's never been the driving force behind my gaming... having fun was priority #1. All this 10man box team stuff seems more like work than fun if you ask me. For the points you mentioned, (1) seems kind of sad... are people really being left off runs because it means smaller loot shares at the split ? (2) I don't know why having the absolute best stats = fun. For me the fun is the journey... getting there... without setting any kind of goal. Has the HG community really changed that much over the years that I've been away, where people now covet loot shares above companionship and no longer take the time to teach others how to do the various maps ? 1 - When you farm piramids (or another 25% artifact) you feel it a bit. Hell's Strong Guard (25% phleg) and Plane Waler Ring also provoke that feeling. 2 - It's not a simple matter of absolute best - If you are an open sub Yuan sorcerer at 60 and someone shows up with a level 70 sorcerer - both at Avernus - where is the fun in that?
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Post by sabregirl on Dec 2, 2017 17:52:41 GMT
2 - It's not a simple matter of absolute best - If you are an open sub Yuan sorcerer at 60 and someone shows up with a level 70 sorcerer - both at Avernus - where is the fun in that? It really doesn't matter in that case whether you're open sub or BUR/XR sub. Level 70 with tricked out gear is going to make you feel useless regardless, because level/gear is far more important than subrace. But that doesn't have anything to do with boxing directly anyway. Has the HG community really changed that much over the years that I've been away, where people now covet loot shares above companionship and no longer take the time to teach others how to do the various maps ? Definitely not as far as I've seen. There are always those that are grumpy and don't want to help but they're in the minority. Most people are happy to help new players and show them how to play. I know I am. -S
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Post by chirality on Dec 2, 2017 19:05:52 GMT
regarding my guild members of whom the majority have helped in the past. name the minority? ur one of the richer players on server, no question, and ofc i never played as much as others, but tbh i never saw u ask for help farming an item needed; when was it denied? instead i mainly recall always being accommodated to tag at least 1 extra (even quite extra, aka unnecessary for run success, but welcomed nonetheless cuz guildmate) toon on runs that most noobs never saw, with no hesitation nor ever saltiness about winning split for the Xth spare desirable item of split only to gear up literally dozens of toons, whereas i rarely if ever recall u saying "oh hey u don't even have one of these 1st-pick items and u only have 1 account? i'll pass on it, enjoy" cuz ofc with nearly 50 toons there's always need for something. not a dig at you: no problem, i never asked boxers (or anyone regardless of richness) to pass on spare 1st pick stuff for ppl that lacked, multiple accs to support run formation was always to be rewarded, it's hard work and nubs like me eternally grateful for it. i wouldn't expect that of anyone, nor feel any type of way for not doing so. no harm no foul, but ironically it's nevertheless been done a lot by the same guild members u "misspoke" on, in fact un-greedily sharing loot and helping others farm for both gear and tags needed by less-rich friends, and dedication to doing that and still playing even by ppl that have zero personal incentive to continue farming hell/abyss/abo/ely yet still do so to help the rest, is one of the pillars of the guild/circle if u ask me, or else why would it exist ) i dont know, maybe i never noticed or wasn't around when u asked, but honestly the idea of u lacking anything that u never acquired simply doesn't stand out in my memory, even having hard time imagining what those leet gearz could be Only possibles i could even guess are maybe TA? chorus? there's 2 things 99% server lacks even 1 of, and remaining prolly .7% have 1-2 and .3% have 3 or more, and some ppl farmed those runs dozens of times without luck. afaik u've plenty of any imaginable setloot, godly BUR ego, pandects? again, easily one of richest players on server, totally missing any complaint here, and tbh seems so random and surprising shot to take. u built up impressive multiple copies of top-tier stuff (even non-set loot like sick randoms that's way harder to find) that most players would trade life savings for. in years of gearing up 30-40+ toons across 6-8? accs (some shared with another person, but im sure u played their toons plenty, anyway all associated with u and partially worked on by u) i never noticed u mentioning a badly needed X item or Y tag and then refused help, if u did maybe i wasn't around (surely possible, but seems incredible tbh) There are always those that are grumpy and don't want to help but they're in the minority. Most people are happy to help new players and show them how to play. name the minority?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 20:06:38 GMT
FWIW I support allowing dual-boxing. As Woki said, it’s strong but I think the pros balance the cons and it’s not unreasonable. There's no reasonable justification for triple-and-above boxing - to all those talking about players furthering their own needs, can you think of a single reason to support triple-and-above boxing that doesn't revolve around self-interest? Still, no one is proposing for the current iteration of HG to have it restricted, it's purely a hypothetical discussion for a clean-slate EE (if it ever happens, which it probably won't). I have not progressed all that far, my highest is 61 and tagged up to Dis. But I can say despite not having the top end stats that I never once not enjoyed the game. If your highest toon is tagged to Dis, then it means you are pretty new to the endgame; that isn’t a bad thing at all, but I hope you're aware that it’s very easy to have fun playing a game that feels new, so saying “I’ve never once not enjoyed the game” carries very little weight. Play more. Play the same runs many times. Play in big parties, play in small parties, play by yourself. Play with good players, play with bad players, play with people you love, play with people you don’t particularly like. Play the same runs over and over and over again, until you’ve unintentionally memorised the trigger location and contents of every spawn in every run, and nothing really surprises you anymore. Teach the same runs to others; to people who listen and learn, to people who listen and don’t learn, to people who listen and quit the game shortly after, to people who don’t listen at all. Play the same runs for years and years. Do that first, and *then* tell us that you’ve “never once not enjoyed the game”.
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Post by TJ on Dec 2, 2017 21:58:34 GMT
I love how the people speaking out the most against boxing are the ones who spend the most time playing alone, or are hardly active if active at all. Let's not pretend that your activity level would change a huge amount if there was a wipe or boxing was all of a sudden blocked.
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Post by Raj on Dec 2, 2017 22:25:27 GMT
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Post by tank on Dec 2, 2017 23:02:26 GMT
I love how the people speaking out the most against boxing are the ones who spend the most time playing alone, or are hardly active if active at all. Let's not pretend that your activity level would change a huge amount if there was a wipe or boxing was all of a sudden blocked. wouldn't the opinion of someone who doesnt play much be quite important? there must be a reason we stopped playing hmm? ah well, lets just broadly judge people and ignore their opinions
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Post by sabregirl on Dec 2, 2017 23:14:08 GMT
There are always those that are grumpy and don't want to help but they're in the minority. Most people are happy to help new players and show them how to play. name the minority? I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular actually, just the occasional instance by a wide variety of people of being grumpy with new players. It happens to me sometimes too. Some people hate lowbies and thus won't help someone shouting for a MoC assist. Others get bothered by certain player behaviors. Point is most people are helpful most of the time. But nobody's obligated to do anything for someone else and everyone has an off day or two. -S
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Post by chirality on Dec 3, 2017 6:04:08 GMT
nod
well as the saying goes, grumpiness is next to godliness
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