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Post by Raj on Dec 29, 2017 16:25:37 GMT
So you pretty much confirmed that there's very little incentive to shackle, and then running multiple toons through high xp/low loot areas, taking along newbies underlevelled (for the area) and undergeared (because they skipped level appropriate content, until they get some charity): 'being squishy from low 40s to early 50s' is a direct consequence of that, not a server/class balance problem.
Also, petty discussions between people who try to defend 'their' way of playing against 'others' way of playing the same broken mechanic are beyond the scope of this thread.
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Post by Enius the White on Dec 29, 2017 16:40:00 GMT
I'll just note an interesting divergence here between bots filling runs with one or more missing class(es), and bots for optimized loot/time:
When we form and run a party that includes one or more bots, the bot(s) always drop party before the loot split. No one would ever consider doing otherwise, even in HC where the bot's total deletion is at risk along with everyone else. In a party of "all" bots, running just to optimize loot/time, every bot is effectively in the loot split.
If the same common standard of "not stealing loot from your party with a bot in the split" were applied to both instances, inviting a single real player to a multi-box solo run would result in a 50/50 loot split with the additional real player, after the bots are dropped.
This may be a salient factor in understanding divergent "invite others" motivations, as going from "all the loot" to "50% of the loot" with the addition of 1 player can be a severe loot/time drop, with no obvious ethical way to proceed otherwise.
XP is, of course, distinct from loot, as it is shared evenly with bots.
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Post by desocupado on Dec 29, 2017 18:44:11 GMT
So you pretty much confirmed that there's very little incentive to shackle, and then running multiple toons through high xp/low loot areas, taking along newbies underlevelled (for the area) and undergeared (because they skipped level appropriate content, until they get some charity): 'being squishy from low 40s to early 50s' is a direct consequence of that, not a server/class balance problem. Also, petty discussions between people who try to defend 'their' way of playing against 'others' way of playing the same broken mechanic are beyond the scope of this thread. Shackling is only painful due the gear level restriction. If you remove that facet, it could be automatic instead! But it's still sort of useless to shackle for the shackler (I don't think that a player that can shackle have a real interest in the run, because he already could have done it at an appropriate time - or gotten all the loot by himself solo). -------- Loot scarcity/split and enemy scaling to party size are detrimental to real player party formation. Getting 100% of 10 drops (solo) is always better than 25% of 20 drops (4 man party, assuming +50% per 2 players). Not to mention the time saved by not splitting. Truth is, dungeon crawlers can be solved by a single tactical mind. After all, given enough analysis ability, it's easy to assign order to multiple units instead of single hero. Action RPG are somewhat less prone to that, but given the (slow) turn based nature of NWN, AI limitations, lack of telegraphed area attacks (requiring repositioning), how easy it is to tank mobs and power creep - multiboxing grew out of control. Imagine how hard it would be to solo, if a wail of banshee had no DC (or immunity gear), but required moveming before the animation ended to avoid. |
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Post by Raj on Dec 29, 2017 19:01:20 GMT
Getting 100% of 10 drops (solo) is always better than 25% of 20 drops (4 man party, assuming +50% per 2 players). Heh, you wished. In that example it's more 100% of 10 drops vs 25% of 11. check me for some loot drops ramblings. |
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Post by desocupado on Dec 29, 2017 19:48:47 GMT
Forum myths about loot drops indeed. The rarity based names make a lot more of sense now.
It doesn't make much sense tough. common, uncommon and rare have no place dropping in hells. (autosell 5's ftw)
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Post by madzapper on Dec 29, 2017 21:43:33 GMT
So you pretty much confirmed that there's very little incentive to shackle Yes, this is very true. Shackling sucks for anything but sorcerors. I didn't cause that problem and I've complained about it before. It just exists. It's part of the way NWN works that makes it terrible. Well, firstly, "taking along newbies" makes it sound like it is planned that way. "Newbies" come and want to be a part of the run. It's not like there's a diabolical scheme to thwart all newbies and make them incompetent. They join, we finish the run, we move on to whatever makes sense. Yes, they are encouraged to work areas that make sense for them. Usually I see people for one or two runs and they are off somewhere else. It's true that I rarely ask to inspect their gear or look over their build, or ask their AC/AB/DC/SAVES before letting them join. Some players do fine. Some players don't. What is your proposed alternative to this that is friendly to both the person involved in the run and the "newbie" that wants to be a part of the run? As for being "squishy". I'll just say there are a lot of "buiild" issues at play in a level 45 toon that produces a very big discrepancy among those toons. I played an open subrace COT (Sylvan Champion for those interested) with crap gear and did pretty well in Desert. Bur subrace shifter was a complete disaster with hideous AC and innefective forms (no, I don't remember what build it was.. build was great about 55). So, The main premise you seem to be alluding to in the paragraph I quoted is that by having toons dragged through content they don't belong in, the toons will not gain the necessary play experience, nor the gear from those areas to be prepared for Hells and beyond when it comes.That logic seems pretty straightforward to me, but of course we're in HG land of NWN. Let me at least say that dragging underpowered toons through LL has been around for a very long time, irregardless of multiboxing. I'm not disagreeing that it's broken, but I don't have a good fix for it and I'm really not convinced one is going to exist. Maybe if you take away non-immortal dragging, sapphires, reincarnation, etc., but obviously those have some serious backlash to them as well. Regardless, I don't see this removing dragging, it will just change the methods. Hahaha, I'm sorry, but I'm not defending my way of playing, and I'm sorry you feel I am a petty person. The problem for me is that you paint this picture of greedy multiboxers who ignore new guys by not shouting runs because they are a waste of time (rests/deaths), the multiboxers take all the good loot, if there is any, and that the multiboxers don't ever teach anything to the new guys, so the new guys fail. I point out that this is not necessarily true and that you don't know what my intentions are and you shouldn't broadcast it like it's some sort of truth. Sure it seems to make your point for you, but it's based on conjecture and presumption. It's your attack that provoked a response. You didn't need ANY of that language to make your point. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 22:02:03 GMT
There's three main types of multi-boxing that I see: 1) Filling in an extra core role, to get a run off the ground - the 'traditional' form of multi-boxing, and I think it adds value to the server. 2) Actively playing 3 or more toons to do the work of a whole party - a more recent phenomenon and is extraordinarily efficient, so that players who are skilled enough have little incentive to party with more than 1-2 real players. This is bad for the server. 3) Playing 1-2 toons while having 'AFK leecher bots' in the party to soak up XP/tags - something which has been growing at an increasing rate and is also extraordinarily efficient, letting players level up multiple toons/classes at once (with minimal extra effort). Not uncommon to find 6-8 toons from the same player leeching at once. The prevalence of this practically forces players to multi-box unless they want to slow down their own progress significantly. Why bother making 4 toons separately when everyone nearby is leveling 4 toons at once? Here's an older thread discussing the second subrace book requirement, with the primary argument supporting it being that it helps 'slow down' player progression to the endgame and forces them learn the content. There is nothing else that lets a player skip content more than being able to literally AFK their toon from 1-60. I had to chuckle at this one: without boxing I wouldn't even bother comin on at this time because there just aren't enough ppl to do a run. But with it I have been able to build 6 accts, all 4 cores, a tank and a rogue. So when there are enough ppl to do a run, I am able to join with anything and be productive and help it succeed. Let's be clear, owning all four cores that have *never* been individually played does not let someone 'join with anything and be productive'. In the past, the 'standard' was to play one account to the endgame and then once you knew what you were doing you might start a second account. Today, it's very common for players to begin triple-boxing by Level 40. Nothing against those new players, I understand that it’s simply the obvious choice in the current setting of the server. |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 29, 2017 22:49:23 GMT
Raj's idea is best. Anything which prevents multi-boxing ultimately hurts the server more than helps. Remove the bonus for added loot chances for bots in party, so if players want the bonus, you add humans. This won't impact set drops either way which ensures players can still get value from a run. A. Not Raj's idea. See post on page 2. B. The only thing we would consider doing, for reasons outlined in post on page 1. We're not going to enforce hard limits, only tweak incentives. C. May be a complete non-issue in EE, as multiboxing may not be permitted by the client. But you can discuss that in the conversion thread.  Funky |
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Post by chirality on Dec 30, 2017 7:49:50 GMT
multiboxing may not be permitted by the client. But you can discuss that in the conversion thread. it's been quite a while now with no answer on this. i understand EE is a WIP but it seems like something that would be a known factor by now? i made a thread on beamdog forums that was completely ignored (not to be snarky--perhaps at the time i posted the question, no one outside of hg really understood what i was asking). now, though, maybe someone could shed some light on the subject (considering we have a multiboxing beamdog dev on HG atm). between their forums, our forums, and the very active discord channels, i'd think there could be some input on this subject, as it's been an important question for HG since day1 of EE discussion. |
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Post by Growly on Dec 30, 2017 17:03:45 GMT
: I had to chuckle at this one: without boxing I wouldn't even bother comin on at this time because there just aren't enough ppl to do a run. But with it I have been able to build 6 accts, all 4 cores, a tank and a rogue. So when there are enough ppl to do a run, I am able to join with anything and be productive and help it succeed. Let's be clear, owning all four cores that have *never* been individually played does not let someone 'join with anything and be productive'. quote] Hmmm, Who says I've "Never" played them individually? Pretty big assumption. I may not be the best at a couple, but have played them all. Just sayin. Z |
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Post by dopplegang on Dec 31, 2017 10:16:04 GMT
: I had to chuckle at this one: Let's be clear, owning all four cores that have *never* been individually played does not let someone 'join with anything and be productive'. quote] Hmmm, Who says I've "Never" played them individually? Pretty big assumption. I may not be the best at a couple, but have played them all. Just sayin. Z I don't get the joke. Z has performed well with every toon he has either in multiple box mode or in single box play with every one of his toons. He has literally joined with any core and been productive exactly like he said, as have I. In fact most players I find are doing this rather than what you seem to think they do with their boxes. This is the same way I learned to cleric, after boxing a cleric to legendary level capability, I read all i could about what they use in hell on the forum then ventured out to hell and learned about what clerics do there. I would not have made one any time soon if i didn't have another box I could use to play in tandem with some character that could tank things and buy me the time I needed to practice and learn what works, hell runs are usually fast paced affairs where people want to blast through them, and this trend is getting worse recently, the only time I ever get to practice in hell and abyss is when I go with people I regularly take there in slow training runs. As another example I have dragged several Sorcs to 60, sidelined them until I have the time to bring them and practice their spells on more training runs through hell because I don't have a comprehensive list of kill targets for sorc spells yet. Either way I find this to be a very productive tool that helps me help others. and definitely helps runs get started multiple times each and every day. As far as I have been witness to most people who have boxed some builds up to Legendary have turned around and employed them to good use or learned how to employ them once they get into hells. They simply needed a toon at that level to start practicing what to do with it in those areas they didn't have access to with something they could practice using. Boxing has enabled me to make cores and learn to play them far quicker than if i waited to play a single build until it was in the high 70s before learning any other. Just as it is with tanks, the synergy gained from knowing what clerics should do has helped me understand what tanks should do and what other cores should do in those areas and allowed me to become better at each. Dragging a couple boxes through PreLL and LL content that you have already mastered a 100 runs previously is not a bad thing. I already know how to defeat the place what more do i need to know about it? This knowledge wont help me in Hell or Abyss anyway, they are so completely different from preLL and LL content. Granted when I drag my druid and cleric and several failtanks through Sissy, I may not know what a druid uses to kill in sissy, but that's specifically because I find there is no need for a druid in sissy when I have a sorc, so why not drag my druid through it quickly and move on with my life, its not like I need to relearn an area I already mastered. Once you get to hell obviously that situation changes in a way that is impossible to anticipate, simply from the possibility of random spawns, as Raja has said there are no more 20 mob rooms that quite easily take Wail and move on in such a predictable fashion, nor should there be in places that we call Hell. That does not detract from the challenge of things like Thids, its just a different content that can be handled differently. Knowledge is the ultimate power creep. It seems to me that a lot of the players just don't agree with the basic premise of these arguments, that they are simply dragging a bunch of boxes that they can't learn, don't learn, or won't ever learn how to play or even that they simply haven't learned yet. A great deal of these people got to hell and realized they could really use a bard, so they made one and want to powerlevel it up to . Most of them seem to me to be simply filling an observed gap in their capabilities, or attempting to learn a new skill, they just want to do it in their own lifetime instead of slowgrinding their way up to 60 one at a time over and over. It is not simply mindless cave people capable of simultaneously soloing everything and yet dragging boxes behind them that they are completely inept at employing and completely inept at ever being capable of learning to employ. |
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Post by Torin on Jan 7, 2018 6:43:35 GMT
A thought on bots: Normally, in the loot split it is good tone that a player with bots does not roll for the bots but only for one character. The server rules don't handle bots the atm. Maybe at least the common loot split etiquette as described should be included to avoid drama.
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