Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 7:52:32 GMT
This has obviously been mentioned a lot, but usually appears as a thread derail and most of the best points have been spread out among multiple threads. Most of what I'm about to say has been said in the past in some shape or form, but I wanted to condense it into a proper suggestion and discussion. Despite the fact that several of my own toons would be negatively affected by these changes, I think that rebalancing 2Hers is a priority to broaden our stale metagame a little.
I love the basic idea of the 2H bonus, "sacrificing AC to deal more damage", and I think that having the option to play a 'glass cannon' is a great concept. IMO the issue is *not* that 2Hers deal too much damage, but that there are mechanics that allow high-level 2Hers to still have pretty decent AC; they get to have their cake and eat it because they can deal more damage without really "sacrificing" their AC. This invalidates the intended "low AC damager" style, since there are other ways to deal a similar amount of damage without having to accept the low AC that is meant to come with it.
The obvious culprit here is the Monk splash. Right now the most reliable way to build a solid damage dealer is:
1) Get a x2-Demi toon with plenty of Paragon levels
2) Take at least 1 level of Monk, add any combination of two tank classes
3) Wear Robes and wield a 2H weapon
4) Enjoy your 40% bonus damage while still feeling tanky
There used to be a class that was able to claim the 2H bonus without losing their AC - Shapestrong Barbarians. Their damage bonus was rightfully nerfed to 20%, and I think that other classes that can gimmick their way into an effectively 'free' 2H bonus should similarly have either their damage or defenses lowered. Leave the full 40% bonus for legitimate glass cannons.
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MY SUGGESTIONS:
Essentially the current 2H classes that get 'high' AC will have their damage bonus reduced, while the current 2H classes that get 'okay' AC will have their AC adjusted down slightly to give them a smaller lead over 'legit 2Hers'. I know Raj disagrees with me about a Divine Shield nerf, but this is just my opinion; if Monks and Rangers have their damage reduced, I think Paladin and Blackguard would be too far ahead of the curve unless their AC was reduced too (hey, I play a 2H Paladin so if it isn't nerfed then that suits me fine ).
Quarterstaves have been terrible for a very long time, and boosting them give Monks more choices (right now choosing Quarterstaff simply nerfs yourself) while also giving a buff to the underused/underpowered Staffmaster quasi-class. In particular, Monks and Rangers will have a legit choice between 2H vs dual-wielding; 2H will give a 20% bonus which is better for piercing resists, while dual-wield will typically give 20-40% more attacks (depending on your existing APR) that are worse at piercing resists. Monks would also have the choice of Monk weapon vs non-Monk weapon, gaining APR but sacrificing critical hits (and being restricted to Bludgeoning for a 2H option).
The Girding change would make Heavy Armor more attractive. One perk of the heavier armors is that their Armor bonus tends to increase (BUR Light Armors cap at 17 AC, while Medium/Heavy climb to 18+ and XRs can roll to 20). The problem is that a cap on Girding means that there is no difference between +18 vs +20. I think that a Girding change as above would make Heavy armor a little more attractive while adding value to better randomization and XRs, and overall would help shake the 'Robes or Light Armor' meta that we see for most tanks. It's likely that Heavy Armor/Tower Shields also need a change to their DEX caps, but I would start with a Girding change and then observe a little first.
Overall, I think these changes would create a lot more competition between endgame tank builds. 1H defensive toons will be closer to the pack of 2H defensive toons, and glass cannons (particularly the Heavy Armor ones) will have a better hold over their niche.
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Like any suggestion, it's not perfect:
- It reduces our existing damage output, since most of our tanks utilise the options that would be nerfed. In the context of Limbo, targets are already too sturdy and it feels like we *need* the 2H bonus to break through. I understand that Limbo resists are being adjusted as we speak, so I'm hoping that this issue will rectify itself in the near future.
- There are other very powerful 2H options that currently exist but would be dodging the nerf-hammer. In particular, 2H Cleric is an already legit build which would probably become the top dog, able to take a massive beating with Gate resists (and would actually be buffed further by a Girding change) while swinging with 7 APR. Another gimmick is to alternate between multiple sets of Gnomish Exploration Goggles to allow *any* toon to have very high conceal as long as they've farmed enough (realistically this should probably be a "you must rest while wearing this item to use its special ability").
But I think these archetypes are nowhere near as cancerous as the ones the changes would address (okay, maybe the Goggle gimmick is), and can be re-evaluated at a later time.
I love the basic idea of the 2H bonus, "sacrificing AC to deal more damage", and I think that having the option to play a 'glass cannon' is a great concept. IMO the issue is *not* that 2Hers deal too much damage, but that there are mechanics that allow high-level 2Hers to still have pretty decent AC; they get to have their cake and eat it because they can deal more damage without really "sacrificing" their AC. This invalidates the intended "low AC damager" style, since there are other ways to deal a similar amount of damage without having to accept the low AC that is meant to come with it.
The obvious culprit here is the Monk splash. Right now the most reliable way to build a solid damage dealer is:
1) Get a x2-Demi toon with plenty of Paragon levels
2) Take at least 1 level of Monk, add any combination of two tank classes
3) Wear Robes and wield a 2H weapon
4) Enjoy your 40% bonus damage while still feeling tanky
There used to be a class that was able to claim the 2H bonus without losing their AC - Shapestrong Barbarians. Their damage bonus was rightfully nerfed to 20%, and I think that other classes that can gimmick their way into an effectively 'free' 2H bonus should similarly have either their damage or defenses lowered. Leave the full 40% bonus for legitimate glass cannons.
-----
MY SUGGESTIONS:
1- If you receive Wisdom AC (from Monk or Ranger) while wielding a 2H melee weapon, the 2H bonus is reduced from 40% to 20%
2- Divine Shield's Shield AC bonus (from Paladin/Blackguard) is reduced from CHA/2 to CHA/3 (or some compromise, like (CHA/2 - 3) or something)
3- Boost Quarterstaff’s 2H bonus from 0% to 20%
4- Make Girding’s +2 Armor bonus independent of the +20 Armor bonus cap
2- Divine Shield's Shield AC bonus (from Paladin/Blackguard) is reduced from CHA/2 to CHA/3 (or some compromise, like (CHA/2 - 3) or something)
3- Boost Quarterstaff’s 2H bonus from 0% to 20%
4- Make Girding’s +2 Armor bonus independent of the +20 Armor bonus cap
Quarterstaves have been terrible for a very long time, and boosting them give Monks more choices (right now choosing Quarterstaff simply nerfs yourself) while also giving a buff to the underused/underpowered Staffmaster quasi-class. In particular, Monks and Rangers will have a legit choice between 2H vs dual-wielding; 2H will give a 20% bonus which is better for piercing resists, while dual-wield will typically give 20-40% more attacks (depending on your existing APR) that are worse at piercing resists. Monks would also have the choice of Monk weapon vs non-Monk weapon, gaining APR but sacrificing critical hits (and being restricted to Bludgeoning for a 2H option).
The Girding change would make Heavy Armor more attractive. One perk of the heavier armors is that their Armor bonus tends to increase (BUR Light Armors cap at 17 AC, while Medium/Heavy climb to 18+ and XRs can roll to 20). The problem is that a cap on Girding means that there is no difference between +18 vs +20. I think that a Girding change as above would make Heavy armor a little more attractive while adding value to better randomization and XRs, and overall would help shake the 'Robes or Light Armor' meta that we see for most tanks. It's likely that Heavy Armor/Tower Shields also need a change to their DEX caps, but I would start with a Girding change and then observe a little first.
Overall, I think these changes would create a lot more competition between endgame tank builds. 1H defensive toons will be closer to the pack of 2H defensive toons, and glass cannons (particularly the Heavy Armor ones) will have a better hold over their niche.
-----
Like any suggestion, it's not perfect:
- It reduces our existing damage output, since most of our tanks utilise the options that would be nerfed. In the context of Limbo, targets are already too sturdy and it feels like we *need* the 2H bonus to break through. I understand that Limbo resists are being adjusted as we speak, so I'm hoping that this issue will rectify itself in the near future.
- There are other very powerful 2H options that currently exist but would be dodging the nerf-hammer. In particular, 2H Cleric is an already legit build which would probably become the top dog, able to take a massive beating with Gate resists (and would actually be buffed further by a Girding change) while swinging with 7 APR. Another gimmick is to alternate between multiple sets of Gnomish Exploration Goggles to allow *any* toon to have very high conceal as long as they've farmed enough (realistically this should probably be a "you must rest while wearing this item to use its special ability").
But I think these archetypes are nowhere near as cancerous as the ones the changes would address (okay, maybe the Goggle gimmick is), and can be re-evaluated at a later time.