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Post by sabregirl on Jan 25, 2019 0:18:22 GMT
So we are considering upgrading some of the abyssal vestiges. We are aware that some are very nice and others not so much. It would be hard to make them all equivalent in power but we do want to make them all a worthy choice at least in some situations. And without further ado the vestiges: List from HG wiki: wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Category:Abyssal_VestigesPlease try to focus any suggestions on the especially weak vestiges. Edit - Proposed changes are linked here.-S
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Post by desocupado on Jan 25, 2019 4:11:19 GMT
Eye of deception could use either damage immunity (exotics would be nice) or to some status (confusion or something else).
Another idea is granting epic spell focus illusion and/or enchantment.
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Post by buddhamind on Jan 25, 2019 4:37:11 GMT
Remove defensive field from esoteric exotica
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2019 6:21:35 GMT
Give Horrified Silence true silence immunity. An alternative to Elysium Ring, and a true alternate to Asmodeus Shield.
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Post by simpetar on Jan 25, 2019 9:45:35 GMT
Eye of Deception could use a smaller model, the big wavy flag gets in the way of clicking anything nearby.
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Post by Paradoom on Jan 25, 2019 10:25:40 GMT
In general: all vestiges should have some special immunities like stun, confusion, true fear, daze, flesh to stone etc. And even if that is added, that does not compensate for an overall weak/bad vestige.
Bloodward: - make the damage immunity types changeable like the pelor mote or plainwalker ring. - replace the 5x per day mage armor with 2x at CL 50 so one gains actually something (epic dodge). Otherwise could just be removed as well. - add some imm(s) like Wierd, PWK, Stun - up the shield AC to 18 (it´s a vestige for crying out loud) - remove those skill boosts and add epic skill focus in taunt/bluff/persuade/CA/CW
March of Misdirection: Tough one, cause it is boots. Usually occupied by bur breach boots or with limbo now Sandals of Perdurance. I suggest: - up the elemental imm significantly to 50% each at least and add 40 resist to each as well. (basically a real upped alt to the elemental bur imm boots, you are also forced to cover mord&breach through rings or have to use the cloak slot for the azz breach imm one) - add dispel immunity - remove arcane defence evocation, bluff and move silently. - add taunt +25 - up hide to +25
Necklet of the Soulless Sounding: My opinion: good candidate for a tank build. - Stats: could be change to be a "lazy" stats item by adding all basic stats with +14; or, like the asmo arties, have +14 to str, dex and con; or 2 stats chooseable like the pelor mote - up the physical imm to +15% - change the exotic imms with esoteric ones. - add special imm(s) (confusion, pwk, flesh to stone, weird) - natural AC: Either up it to +20 or remove it completely to specialize it for DWDs and Rangers (would need other boosts though then!) If AC is removed: - up the physical imm to +20% and add 5% to all exotic and/or esoteric damage types - add esoteric resists. - add esf CA/Taunt
Talisman of Pazunia: My opinion: the opposite one to the one above. So more focused on offence: - Stats: could be change to be a "lazy" stats item by adding all basic stats with +14; or, like the asmo arties, have +14 to str, dex and con; or 2 stats chooseable like the pelor mote - add special imm(s) (confusion, pwk, flesh to stone, weird) besides the great thunderclap - add esf CW/Listen - add kickback reduction like silver nimbus - add esoteric/exotic resists
To Fear the Night In my opinion an item for long range attackers like AA, Slinger, Rangers, GI and possibly Seaker rogues. Damage bonus: - up the sneak attack bonus from 1d6 to 7d6 OR - add an extra damage dice to ranged ammo (like the aa ego) - Exotic imms: up pos to 25% + 15 resist and neg to 50% + 35 resist - add Mord imm
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Post by woqued on Jan 25, 2019 14:15:41 GMT
Massive walls of text including mostly player point of view analysis with very few fix recommendations in hard-to-read format so if you value your time just skip to actual suggestions in other posts. Now:
The thing with vestiges for the most part is that not only can you wear one like asmodeus artifacts (though you can swap more freely); but they are statted closer to upped burs that cannot be augmented rather than asmodeus artifact tier, but they have interesting specials as trade-off. This means that only the vestiges that provide a really cool special that is hard to get elsewhere and doesn't have too much competition in that slot get worn, or the *very* few that have high base stats. Examples for comparison: Asmo shield vs any vestige offhand; Asmo gloves vs any vestige gloves; the asmodeus alternative is so strong and the vestige alternatives so weak that they don't find much use, but the breach boots get a lot of use because theres less competition and they have a good amount of oomph.
If vestiges are to stay relevant even with XR items in the mix, the items without a really eye-catching special need to be upped multiple notches up - either by adding an eye-catching special or improving them by a lot. I prefer the special route; but even then some items need help. XRs have made it so that you need less oomph power from an item with good specials than before to cover mandatories for current content; but if vestiges want to be overhauled now with Mechanus and beyond in mind then even the base features need a little tuning.
Integral specific immunities: Tier 1: Protection against (Implosion / Amni / Power word: Kill / Weird / Flesh to Stone / Confusion / Stun) and Mord / Breach / Dispel - (immunity to spell school?) Tier 2: Levitation / Waterbreathing Arguably good but more situational or can be fixed with an augmenter or exotic immunity so far less valuable: Daze / Thunderclap / Silence / Word of Balance / Word of Faith / Earthquake and other spell-specific immunities.
Fairly mandatory to cover in gear in one way or another: Reduction to, no lower than 30/- in ele, 25/- exo, 25/- physical: Elementals Exotic Physicals
Immunity to:
Physicals (baseline 10%/10%/10% on burs totalling 30 unrandomized, imo should be 15 per type totalling 45 on vestige unless it's in a slot that doesn't usually have phys imm, then it should be 5 or 10 depending on other perks on the item). Exotic ( at least run specific ) - if item has good stuff, 10% exo is nice fluff. If item is weak outside exo immunities, should have 30% total (so 10/10/10, or 15/15). Elemental (at least run specific, but per endgame usually means all types unless it's a super run specific character) - totalling same as a slightly upped bur equivalent of that slot. Esoteric - This is now relevant, but I am not the best judge in how valuable it is, and how strong it will perhaps eventually be. Perhaps this is best left to the esoteric ring and XR tier items, or run specific loot, not other vestiges.
Cool specials: Access to persistent, strong class-specific abilities like Battletide Save drop improvement SR potential improvement Class specific ability upgrade Access to passive skill/ability of another class (such as Skill Mastery from Rogues/Armand) Spell slots AB/AC/DC outside normal cap Epic Dodge Kickback damage reduction Immunity to something common, scary and what is not easily or at all attained in other items/powers (like Con arti).
Comments on specials: weaker non-used example is Prayer from glove slot; it's common, clerics spam it and you can't utilize the save drop portion due lack of SP or low amount of uses and relying on using items mid-combat should be avoided at all costs due to the long time it takes you away from doing more faster better, so it's like battletide but worse, in a worse item - any short-lasting combat-only activated ability has to be very strong to be of use due to the long time activations take, and using items in combat isn't very fun in general unless it's something really uber. Even savedrop isn't enough if the competition is hard: the eyebite, prayer savedrop item is not often used due to being otherwise a really weak item and competing with items such as the amnihelm. Still it has it's niche; could use a small boost and it would enter competition among very coveted items. As it is for barbs it competes with Wrap; for casters with Spellslots or asmo cloak, and it just doesn't pack enough of a punch to compete, despite providing a crazy good special in added save drop. One special isn't enough if the item otherwise is lackluster, at vestige level. A great help to the item would be adding physical reductions or confusion immunity to it; then you no longer need to worry about that elsewhere in your gear setup. Limited amount of items and a lot to cover means if your item has very little to add to that mix then it will not be used.
Class specials and upgrading abilities: the power has to be strong to compete in this category; auto-empowering a spell is not strong enough unless it's a 8 or 9 and good at what it does (so not an instakill like FoD primary use is not benefiting from Empower and it's a mediocre single target nuke; but a Polar Ray, Clenched Fist or Meteors would be extremely, maybe too dumb in meteors' case) has to be savedrop incrase, sr drop increase, more damage dice from your spells, something oomph that you can't get anywhere else.
Cool fluff: Immunity to spells lvl 6(+?) Spell immunity: Entangle Stat check power KD check power Save feats ESF and SF:Skill feats High Soak GSF:Spellschool (if higher than GSF would need to go to special tier over fluff)
Nice fluff: Core skill(s) +20 +14->16 to stat (less valuable since XRs arrival, but still good) Common misc immunities (knockdown, death, mind, poison, etc) Neg immunity? Sneak attack feats Improved sneak attack feats Specific spell immunities against spells that do damage rather than directly disable or instantly kill Other stuff
The vestiges that get use in general don't compete with the best asmodeus artifacts, and have a cool special + an useful ability on the side. If the item has no cool specials and no integral baseline immunities, it has to have at least two of the "Mandatory to cover" specials and one integral specific immunity; but even that is often not enough. Breach boots is a good example of a good item that gets used but isn't op (because not every breach boots user uses them despite them existing) despite having TWO integral specific immunities and TWO mandatory to cover defenses.
Cool special item that gets use despite having arguably low amount of stuff in it: the Crown of Corruption. You get access to Battletide; you get a very strong integral immunity that is potentially hard to cover in Implosion from that slot; and you get strong fluff in good skills, good stats to +16 and fluff immunities.
So for all the vestiges I would recommend a baseline following that line - potentially even upping it with the addition of XRs into the game and vestiges being one only per character. Good example of something in dire need of help is something like Waisting away which is a completely wasted waist with only 50/- ele dr and some very-easy-to-cover-elsewhere fluff and a special on-use that is replaced by an augmenter.
An example of how this would be (potentially) fixed: Add in elemental immunities on top and a good integral immunity. OR A cool special and an integral immunity. OR Two integral immunities. OR A cool enough special that it doesn't need anything else on top, Wrap is an example of this; spellslot items are another.
Cool specials that I used to wish were on some vestiges and haven't really changed my mind about it: Access to maxed Ranger Invisibility purge for 15 rounds, three uses - not in a torch. SR drop increase on Bestow Curse and now also on Assay Resistance in Glove slot. Increases dice of any ranger/sd/paladin/pariah exotic damage buff by 1 (but only after small rangers have been nerfed and rangers get access to ranger ac while wearing double-weapons!) AoE pickup no charge limit AoE clarity (or just make mind blank remove all the crap clarity does in general).
In my humble opinion baseline for Vestiges should be - while taking into account the alternative item slots they compete with for the classes they're designed for:
Upped BUR + 1 defensive immunity/reduction + 1 integral specific immunity (see Sandals of Perdurance) - Practical example: upping March of Misdirection to this tier would need Ele DRs, +10% to all elemental immunities to make up for randomization and lack of augmenter and a better integral safety measure on top of Evasion. This could be Improved Evasion or a valuable specific immunity of some sort or a neat special that helps the intended user do what they like to do, be it damage or dispel immunity or spell slots. This item is not for breach boots users, nor is it for casters because Planewalkers and Styxwalkers walk all over it; nor is it for Harper scouts; who wears this item? Non-harper monks (already have evasion) Bards, Casters who don't need spellslots (even with spellslots this item would be worse than the aforementioned ones). To accommodate these classes the item should either get a large boost to appease Bards via the defensive boosts (eledr + a specific immunity); or remove evasion and give Monk-oriented defensive/offensive boosts like higher innate conceal, more ele/exo/phys dr/imm, lowered kickback damage; or add another type of special in it to compete with slots and other defenses (AoE assay of resistance for casters, boost to BC sr drop or wider cone to Wail for bards, something among those lines). These should probably not compete with breach boots for those that wanna use those because there is a specific breach boots vestige.
Upped BUR + cool special (Practical example: Sowing Seeds of Death would be this if it had Phys Reductions 30/- akin to Titan's Wrap on top of what it has currently)
Upped BUR + alright special + fluff (Practical example: see Cape of the Blood War General - but because it competes with better specials it doesn't get used too often despite being an item that has really good stats - in this case I would make the special better by making it last a LOT longer for convenience of use as well - not improve the defenses. Though this is not one of the vestiges in most dire need of help)
Naked item with a good special + good fluff + 1 strong defense (See Crown of Corruption) - //The cast range torch should be in this category, it needs defensive qualities about it. Otherwise it's just a for fun item as the effective range of combat in this game isn't very large for practical purposes. Good examples if not complete rework would be immunities against caster-based attacks (you're gonna be far away from combat by nature, defend against the ranged ones) - so effective parry to 120+ vs CS rangers and assassins; immunity to disintegrate, weird, powerword:kill, polar ray, FoD, stoning... This sort of stuff needs to be in this item en-masse to be worth sacrificing all your defense against melee combatants for some range.
Something special that imitates a non-combat class ability or isn't attainable in other ways: Brazier of Painful Truth - for those with a very nice handcrafted vestige and no use for the other ones.
Phew, done. Probably lots of errors and missing stuff but ran out of fuel to fix, sorry.
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Post by kid on Jan 25, 2019 14:19:45 GMT
Chaotic Devotion: Dam Resists weird instead of wail True fear immune 3 charges on function
Cord of Cambion: immune to bigby's instead of orbs immune to polar rays level 6 immune Conc,hide and parry skills STR and Dex checks 2 stats
Waisting Away Add remove curse Add remove para Add remove fear some sort of save value 2 stats values Daze immune A quick look for now at a few.
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Post by greven on Jan 25, 2019 21:29:59 GMT
Some custom epic and paragon spells are almost never taken on builds meant for Abyss+, if anywhere. I recommend giving some of the vestiges one use per rest (or two, or one per reset, etc) of such spells, giving both the spells and the vestiges a function.
For example, I'm not sure I've ever even seen the:
Druid enchantment epic Druid enchantment paragon Druid illusion paragon Cleric evocation paragon Bard Necro paragon Bard Div paragon
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Post by dopplegang on Jan 27, 2019 10:53:07 GMT
Some good points posted all around, I don't know if this was mentioned yet but something I have been thinking could be fun would be things like double the area size of some of the more terribly small AOE spells(UEF comes to mind quite often), or making nifty but barely ever used single target spells into medium AOE types, for instance Flensing.
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Post by woqued on Jan 27, 2019 11:58:59 GMT
Some good points posted all around, I don't know if this was mentioned yet but something I have been thinking could be fun would be things like double the area size of some of the more terribly small AOE spells(UEF comes to mind quite often), or making nifty but barely ever used single target spells into medium AOE types, for instance Flensing. Increasing size of UEF is mostly a quality of life thing; would have to be an added quality of life bonus on an already good item, or on an item you don't permanently wear. Sure it helps when everyone is dying all over the place and you need to rebuff it, but... Really like the idea of AoE flensing after it got nerfed super hard! Recently used it on a few runs and really not feeling the power; but sometimes it's a decent use of a spell even now, especially in a slower group. Would make for a decent addition to the cast range torch; giving some abilities AoE or increased AoE on top of range, making it a super glass cannon choice, but not a fairly redundant one like now. AoE flensing would definitely be worth casting; though not sure I would still use the torch with just that perk. You give up so much. Not sure what other item would be a candidate for this type of change; the different gloves, cloaks and the elemental immunity boots are almost only options that really need help; other slots are already doing alright or a caster wouldn't use even if they got this perk. Casters being forced to sacrifice defensive power in favour of spellslots means they're quite lacking in defensive power for the itemslots that don't provide spells... Feels really bad to sacrifice all defenses and slots for some unique gimmick. Perhaps one of the caster-oriented shields... -- On that note, another suggestion on a separate issue: The exotic immunity belt with a lot of elemental spell-specific immunities in Cord of Cambion Desire - either it's secretly op and players are too dumb to use, (edit: or it becomes op in Mechanus and is a Mechanus-only vestige) or it could use some help as a mostly RP belt. It's a mixed bunch with spell immunities which are only relevant vs greater orbs if you are immune to 6 and below - and there aren't many mobs that use the greater orbs, and even if they do we are highly concealed folk. Hence, seems like mostly cosmetic flu ff unless there are monster effects that get countered by this that we don't know of that can not be countered by elemental immunity - and still have to sacrifice a slot commonly used for 1. slots or 2. a phys/exo/ele damage reduction covering spot. Belt seems targeted at non-spellslot users so melee attackers, ranged attackers and perhaps bards - things that stay in grappling range and need immunities. Following that line of thought. Since it just helps with exotic immunities and getting Charmed outside that but doesn't cover anything essential in that slot, it should have either a really useful special (grapple removal is only borderline useful, never tested if it works - asmo belt helps with not getting grappled in the first place, or you are already a tank not in need) or cover something we need to have covered. Suggestion: drop exotic immunities to 5%, and add 25/- exotic reductions to this item. Thoughts behind it: then it won't be outdone by the classic BUR Coil of Grabduk slammed with an augmenter in almost every gear setup. It might be too similar to Asmodeus Belt after this change; but asmobelt has a more useful special, better fluff, exo DR, better immunity in Implosion compared to Charmed, Death Magic, Level Drain. After change you would have more options about which asmo/vestige combination to go for from tank point of view. Maybe even a bard could consider this vestige as a possiblity, though Inspiration and XR belts are pretty insane in their own right. Downside: asmo gloves + this belt seems to provide a bit too high exotic immunities (+15% over grabduks + exo immunity augmenter) so if deemed too strong (i don't think it would be, still can't be auged, still doesn't provide any OP immunity, can't randomize a good green, no op skills (appraise is cosmetic, bluff is pretty fluff, parry is good), or an op special, or critical specific immunities.. just solid item, in line with items like Sandals in comparison to other items in the slot) here's an alternative suggestion: LoreSuggestion2: no DRs added no exos dropped, but add in immunity to daze, +4 to cha checks, spell:entangle, sf:parry, and esf:parry. Really focused at reaching that cambion desire, blockin blows n' orbs, and no getting dazed or charmed getting there, makin momcubus proud. This would make this the ultimate fluff belt. Could remove immunity to lvl drains and death magic to reach this goal.
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Post by rainbowdash on Jan 27, 2019 13:15:51 GMT
I would really like the oppertunity to pick a good vestige belt.
That being said vestiges that are getting picked recently (atleast from the people I know) are either powerhouses with nice stats and good imms like the breachboots, amnie helmet or stuff with interesting actives and good imms like the Battletide helmet maybe the cloak that makes eyebite prayer etc stronger.
In about 90% of the cases I see one of those items fits (again I most of the time play with a very limited group of people). Ofc sometimes there a fringe cases of sorc that dont really want anything that pick one of the amulets, or occasionally the confusion helm gets picked but thats just bc nothing of the "good" stuff fits.
If you wanna make all vestiges viable, to a certain extend atleast they would need to follow the same recipe.
If I look if the changes woki proposed above I think its going very much in the powerhouse direction but I still doubt anybody would still wear it. It's basically a glorified Coil of Grabduk. Sure it has 20% exo imms but its really diluted and most runs ask for a special immunity to be covered not for all. Also the belt does not have any attributes which are in my opinion pretty important on vestiges to cover some 16s (ofc xrs make that easier but well u usually get vestiges before u get xrs).
The orbs immunity is most of the time not neccassary atleast I never noticed that orbs have been a major issue on any run (I heard rumors that mechanus might have a lot of orb casters but in my humble opinion it s not a good thing to balance items around future areas)
So what that suggestion would boil down to is:
25 exo dr 5% exo imm Charmed imm (which is borderline useful but its pretty nice) Death Magic imm Level Drain imm 20 parry a bunch of orb imms
For me the item is not offering something unique enough (except for the orbs imms that currently have very limited use) and is not enough of a powerhouse.
In one of his posts raj said that he values imms as follows: Ele = 1 point Exo = 2 and Physical = 5 iirc.
so all this item would have above a well randoed grabduk with a 30% ele aug on it is 5 points of imms while providing no attributes and the only bigish payoff is charmed immunity.
I would like to see 2 attributes on the belt. and maybe something like 15% changeable exo imms. I would also like to see a more interesting immunity like confusion or daze but that might be to OP.
That about the belt.
I really really really liked the design of the shifter helmet in Pt1 limbo. If I could choose i liked to be some vestiges be along those lines even tho I have no idea what it could be right now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 17:44:57 GMT
When these changes are implemented, I am wondering if we can get a free redo on a vesitage of our choice. Would be nice.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 1:10:29 GMT
Re-do's will be available.
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Post by woqued on Feb 6, 2019 20:18:56 GMT
Will the focus on these changes/item remakes/upgrades be on flat power or specials/activateables/scripted stuff?
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