Leveling train brainstorming/suggestions/criticism thread

[somes]

I was not sure where the right place to post this was, but if there is somewhere more appropiate please move it.

My intention here is to create the best strategy possible to reach level 55 with tags as fast as humanely possible with my 4 accounts, and with as few toons as possible to have more room in the party. If you feel that is not the way that the game should be played, that’s fine, my precursor thread on this topic was explicit on my intention. I wanted to make sure there would be interest in a powerleveling train in the first place, and the answer seems to be yes.

Now that I got that out of the way, I wanted to post my strategy as well just so other people can poke holes into it and I can make improvements on it. If you have any disagreements or have a better suggestion, please post it. I haven’t committed to leveling a character for this yet, and I just want to make sure the strategy is sound before I make a new character from scratch.

Aside from the toons that I will be using to park at locations to port, I will be creating 3 builds specifically designed for the stated purpose above, along with builds that have already been made, and toons I have already made that would shackle to get some things done.

Build	Helper #1 (Orc Chief - Bandit Chief) 1 Monk, 1 Wizard, 1 Ranger, 4 Monk Take Monk Levels during the train	Helper #2 (Bandit Chief - Some 30 Tags) 10 Druid, 10 Shifter Take Shifter levels during the train	Helper #3 (Zhents Powerlever, help train to level 24) Wizard 10, Pale Master 17
Race	Dwarf Dracotaur FC: Bard, Sorcerer / BC: Dragon Disciple STR +6 DEX +3 CON +3 INT +2 Lore +8 Tumble +30 Free Feats: Dodge Epic Toughness I-V Other: Changes size to Large Increases Fear Aura 1 size Survival: Flamewalk	Dwarf Anarch FC: Druid CON +4 WIS +6 Free Feats: Alertness Weapon Specialization: Creature Epic Weapon Specialization: Creature Martial Weapon Proficiency Armor Skin Increased Base Movement Rate - Fast	Gnome Genie FC: Wizard DEX +2 CON +2 INT +6 Free Feats: Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration Survival Levitation Speaks: Auran, Celestial, Ignan
Alignment & Abilities at Creation	This build needs lawful Taking Monk or Ranger first is fine, taking Wizard first will force you to take INT stats STR 8 DEX 17 CON 11 WIS 18 INT 8 CHA 6	This build needs a neutral alignment Chaotic Neutral preference for lowbie gear STR 8 DEX 8 CON 18 WIS 18 INT 12 CHA 6	Any non-good is required. A lot of the better set lowbie gear in this range needs chaotic, so I would lean towards Chaotic Neutral or Evil STR 8 DEX 16 CON 14 WIS 8 INT 18 CHA 8
Abilities at the Docks	STR 14 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 18 CHA 6 Take Strength while leveling	STR 8 DEX 8 CON 22 INT 12 WIS 24 CHA 6 Take Wisdom while leveling	STR 8 DEX 18 CON 16 INT 22 WIS 8 CHA 8 Take Intelligence while leveling
Skills	Max Discipline, then Spot, and take at least 1 point in Animal Empathy for Oltum during the Ranger level	Concentration, Hide and Animal Empathy Cross-Class Discipline and Tumble	Craft Armor, Concentration, Lore Cross-Class Tumble & Discipline
Feats	Power Attack Great Cleave Improved Critical It is ideal to use scrolls and wands, but great  cleave can wipe out large spawns in seconds Weapon doesn't matter much either, but you'll be able to go barehanded with this build and do well, but a lowbie rare weapon with elemental damage might be better for some situations	Undead Shape is a must to be better than a Sorc helper at this level range. The other feats are optional. Try to at least hit 23 when tags up to them are done for Unlimited Kobold essence, as you'll need it to cheese certain tags. While a Sorc helper will have to fight bosses straight up, the Shifter helper can cheese certain tags by stacking traps. The casting time for Wail of the Banshee on Banshee form is also immediate.	Select General as the character's School of Magic At the Spells Pedestal near the docks, bar divination and enchantment to specialize in Illusion. Important feats to keep in mind: Pre-epic: Greater Spell Focus Illusion Spell Focus Necromancy Greater Spell Focus Necromancy Armor Proficiency (light) Armor Proficiency (medium) Armor Proficiency (heavy) Shield Proficiency Epic: Automatic Still Spell 1-3 Epic Spell Focus Illusion Epic Spell Focus Necromancy At least learn these "hard to get" spells during Wizard levels: Eyebite Vortex of Teeth Undeath to Death Spells needed, learn from scrolls or leveling: Wail of the Banshee Weird Blade of Disaster Greater Sanctuary Sunburst Finger of Death Circle of Death Phantasmal Killer

LEVEL 30 TAG HELPER

Moe's Level 30 Sorc Build
highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/24606/dirty-build-sorc-first-gentle?page=1

Drow Helpers:

Fluffy Build
highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/24144/fluffy-destroyer-4mnk-6ftr-30sin?page=1

Blackguard Smiter
highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/21824

DSM, but BFM is fine too
1 Paladin/19 Sorc/20 BDD or RDD

From one chief to another, from Orc Chief to Bandit Chief - Ranger/Wizard/Monk

Thid rods exist; that's the best way to level and get tags done at the beginning. If there was a class that can cut down the casting time of wands and scrolls, I would select that to be the first helper. I chose Monk to run a little faster and to kite a little easier, and not have to worry about equipping a weapon. Dracotaur basically gives 100 hp, 6 AC (6 from tumble, +1 from dex, -1 from size), and with conceal, some heal pots, and nicely randomized items, you can basically start tanking the East Road after talking to Rowan (lol). Monk also gives evasion, deflect arrows, and spell resistance, which is all absurdly strong at lowbie levels.

The ranger level is for Oltum, which will be used to get XP at the beginning.

The 20s - Shifter

I can picture a debate whether an Undead Shifter or a Level 20 Sorc is better, but you can see my position based on this thread. Not only can shifter cast more Sunbursts and Wails from Baelnorn and Banshee respectively, but the Shifter can also cast it faster. You will also get unlimited Kobold at level 23, which lets you cheese Rhazid. While a level 20 sorc has to fight Rhaz, the shifter can simply delete him from existence. Some level 20 sorcs can struggle with Grey Renders, especially if they make a positioning mistake and lose spells, while a Shifter will stroll through the Renders. The Shifter also has to take AE, which means they can still take Oltum to places while the mage has to sacrifice a level if they want to take Oltum as well.

Powerleveling Palemaster

I recently played new toons, and tried to see how many levels I would get from exclusively doing tags until I needed more levels to do certain tags. I basically got to level 20/21 before the harder level 30 tags, which left room for a separate toon that is at level 27 that can help powerlevel. I chose Pale Master to get the highest DC possible on Weird at this level, which is able to do Zhents and the Bone Horde. It was better to cycle through different Zhents on different servers rather than doing Bone Horde, so this guy will be sitting in Zhents on multiple servers for the purpose of this train. I also like this toon because it almost hits 100 ac before 30, hits 100 ac at level 30 with Lolth gear, has inherent sneak immunity, and gets crit immunity at level 30, which lets him tank Angus.

The 30s - Sorcerer Helper

This is where Sorcerer unquestionably wins. There is an argument to have an Accursed Pariah instead for the inherent tankiness, but you can make a regular Sorc tanky as well, and it's not like the free Auto-Still feats give a significant advantage where the Sorcerer can't compensate for having more spell slots than the Pariah. The reasons I have a Palemaster instead of a Sorc for powerleveling are very specific to Zhents (It's easy to mass, sneak attacks are a huge problem, and crit immunity is so freaking helpful), but the extra casts would beat the Pale Master if circumstances were different.

The Drow Hunters - Assassin, DSM, Blackguard Smiter

Now this is where I will raise some eyebrows. Drow saves are too high for even a shackled toon, so insta kills are not ideal. There is also the fact that rangers are better than assassins in every way, but the reason to have Fluffy is to make it easier to multi box, and while Ranger has to make a called shot on a target every time, a dual wielding assassin will have multiple chances to insta kill a target in one round, meaning the Drow have higher chance to roll low against an Assassin than a Ranger. I will put a lot more focus on the DSM and the Smiter to get rid of targets that can't be critted, which are always the ones more likely to cause problems on a run, while the Assassin can insta kill trash. 

As for the choice of picking a DSM instead of a regular Sorc, well, it's for the Hellballs.

For this to work, there is a special attack I like to call the "What Matron?" attack. It's possible to have two Hellballs hit at once. Basically, cast one on the Matron, which will cause it to spin around her. Then you cast the second hellball on yourself a second before the first one you casted hits, then swap to the Blackguard and smite. The Matron is gone before she even can drink a potion. Basically you want the two hells balls and the smite to land at the same time.

Picking between DSM or BFM doesn't make a difference until you face the army of Droghers before Lolth. They possess 90% fire immunity and 50% electric immunity. I will be using BFM how I already have one, but DSM is better overall.

Before Immo, swap out the DSM for a shackled Sorcerer. Death of magic cuts the length of the Immo fight in half... so yea. Sorc wins again.

FRIDAY

Preparation before the train starts:

Tell people the evil version of the Solis tag will be done, anyone that needs to change their alignment after should do so during a break
Announce the three servers that will be used for the train so people hopefully avoid them for runs. If a run happens on one, I'll probably have to use a break to re-park toons on a different server.
Collect the staff pieces on the pure monk
Buy lots of Avatts, Haste Potions, Stat Potions (If anyone wants to donate an Uro Urn for this project, I would appreciate it)
Buy lots of TP Gems
Buy Heal rings
Cover death magic, knockdown, and mind spells on Dracotaur before doing Elder orbs
Gather a bag full of stakes for coffin XP from Solis
Grab two disks for Pointiff
Use one disk on a demi toon to kill Ruination, and park toon outside of the Morgue of Darkness
Get Wardstone and Seal Breaker

Pick 3 fresh servers and park toons at the locations listed:

Server 1:
Electric Beetles
Water Ring Fountain
Elder Orb (Invis)
Goblin Camp
The Final Hobgoblin Map
Levitation Ring Orb
Ice Kobolds

Server 2:
Dracolich
Urobos
Park Palemaster at the final map of Zhents
Last Spider Map
The second floor of the Abandoned Temple (GS)
Zeyra’s Throne Room (GS)

Server 3:
The Under Dark (GS)
The Blood Moor (Close to Bloodpool)
By Solis’s Body (GS)
First Shadow Elf Map
Shadow Lord Room (GS)
The room that opens after defeating Ruination (GS)


Server 1

Log in to Dracotaur Helper
Abandoned Farm, get XP
Town
Run to Dragon Disciple, Defeat Dragon Disciple
Run to Bandit Camp, Defeat Bandit Chief
Port to Electric Beetles, Defeat Hive Mother
Port to Water Ring, Defeat Kua Toa Chief
Port to Elder Orb, Defeat Elder Orb
Rat King
Corpse Lord
Kobold Re-Animator
Port to Goblin Camp
Goblin Commander
Mass and Clear First Hobgoblin Map
Kennel Master
Port to Hobgoblin Tunnel Map before Kard and clear map, Defeat Kard
Town
Crypt Thing
Hero Stone
Port to Levi Rings (Party can take 16, stay at 16)
Minotaur
Ogre Lord
Create Staff
Town
Go to Anduins, Break Staff
Cesspool
Run to Lava King, Get KC for Gren and park toon above him, defeat Lava King
Town
Abandoned Farm, Get XP
Port to Ice Kobolds, Defeat Ice Kobold King (Party can now take levels up to 20)
Lure Bandit Chief to Crosroads and defeat him (Party can go up to 22)
Keep doing Abandoned Farm until the lowest player is level 15
Town, get Oltum, and defeat Formian Matriarch
Have the entire party port back to toon above Gren, reclear the map for KC if someone joined the train late

!portal to Server 2, Login to Dracotaur Helper, 30 Minute Break

Town
Farm, East Road and POW (Swap to Shifter Helper for ER and POW, and from now on swap to Dracotaur for Farm, Shifter for East Road and POW)
Port to Dracolich, Defeat Dracolich
Town
Run to Grey Renders, Defeat Grey Render Queen
Town
Farm, East Road and POW
Port to Uro
Farm, East Road and POW
Town
Run to Hendron's Sanctuary, Mass Maps for XP, Defeat Hendron
Town
Farm, East Road, POW, then Rhazid until everyone is at least level 21
Log in to Palemaster in Zhents, get KC, and farm backwards until everyone is at least level 24
After everyone is at least 24, clear Zhents backwards and park the party in front of the Spider Cave
Park Palemaster close to Elana

!portal to Server 3, 30 Minute Break

Port to the Underdark, Defeat Spawn of the Deep One (Party can now go up to level 30)
Log in with Sorcerer Helper and defeat the Troll King
Lith
Port to the Blood Moor, clear map, defeat Bloodpool and the Three Hags
Town
Mother of the Corn
Town
Asimathas (Party can now go up to 32)
Town
Have party portal back to Server 1 and defeat Gren (Party can now go up to 33)
!portal back to Server 3
Hel and cohorts
Run to BDDK and defeat him
Port to Solis and get the evil tag, get bag of stakes from parked toon and use them on coffins for xp
Port to the first map of the Shadow Elves and clear it
Port to the Shadow Lord and defeat him (Party can now go up to 35)
Party ports close to the transition before the Morgue of Darkness, while the helper toon runs back to get KC from the first few rooms, then skips mini boss by porting to party, then defeat the Shadow Pointiff
!portal back to Server 2 and clear the first spider map
Port to the third Spider map and defeat the Spider Queen
Port to the Palemaster and beat Elana and Angus
Port to the Second map of the Abandoned Temple and clear it
Port to Zeyra's throne room and defeat her
While fighting Zeyra, run toon on the second floor of the temple to the Water Shrike area
Port to the Water Shrikes, defeat their Mother, Axilar, and the Wasta (Party can go up to 40 after Axilar)
Party is now ready for the Drow runs

SATURDAY

Most people burn out after Immo, so the other level 40 tags will be done first so the train stays strong

Preparation
Get a body from the Lolth Temple on a seperate server for MoAD
Make sure to have a Jade Tooth
Shackle a cleric
Memorize spells for the Academy doors on Wizard
Park shackled cleric at Ancient Kings
Park a toon at the Ruined City
Park a toon in the Underdark

Town, use Jade Tooth
Deadpool
Port to the Lair to get KC, defeat Gilth
MoAD
Port to Ancient Kings, use the shackled cleric to clear fast
Port to the Ruined City, use a demi mage to clear fast
Port to the Underdark, defeat the Drider Chief
Log in to Drow Helpers, Drow Run
Swap out Assassin for Sorcerer before fighting Lolth
Lolth
Log into Assassin, Log out DSM
Immortal
Party is now ready for LL runs

SUNDAY

All runs that give a tag will be done. If a brand new player joins, at least they can get some gear this way rather than getting dragged to Tia with nothing to show for it. This is probably where I will need the most help with picking the right toons, as I avoid a lot of LL runs lol.

Myconids (BFM)
Tragidore (Assassin+Druid?)
Toyshop (Sorcerer, might need reminders on what works here)
Uro (Sorcerer)
Tragidore (Assassin+Druid)
Locathah (Sorcerer)
Zorgot's Hive (Shifter?)
Dulv (Turner?)
Hive (Shifter+Assassin)
Sssithy (Shifter)
Desert (Sorc)
DB (Sorc)
Thids (Sorc)
Rona (Druid+Shifter+Assassin)
PoM (Turner+Sorc+Two-Hander)
Pyramid (Turner and... what's good for the boss again?)

Hopefully doing every LL run with a tag gives enough XP for 55, or else we might have another well founded complaint for Acaos to jack up the LL xp again!

Things I need information on:
I would like to know if taking an Epic Spell on my helper Sorc would prevent him from de-leveling.
For most of the LL runs I took guesses at what works, that's where I need more suggestions.

[Deleted]

I would go to the farm and grind there. You can get 1-20 in under an hour. From that you will have a sorc who has weird and then grind XP to 34. Do tags after you grind to 20 and 34 respectively. Then you’re doing tags at max level. 34+ can be boosted by high level toons.

[somes]

Jul 16, 2019 23:36:35 GMT @xprepared said:

I would go to the farm and grind there. You can get 1-20 in under an hour. From that you will have a sorc who has weird and then grind XP to 34. Do tags after you grind to 20 and 34 respectively. Then you’re doing tags at max level. 34+ can be boosted by high level toons.

This is the traditional way, but the problem with this method is that there will be tags that grant 0 xp. For it to be worth it, the level 25 sorcerer killing a mass of hobgoblins should be doing it faster than a level 5 monk with a thid wand, but that's not going to happen. If anything, the monk will be faster with the running speed, and the immediate activation of the thid wand. That would be only for one tag, there will be multiple tags that grant no XP or little XP for a party that does the tags too late. So not only are you doing it slower than a lowbie using a Thid wand by casting spells, but you won't be getting xp for it either. Why not just do it early when you will be just as fast as the level 20 sorc, while also getting XP for it?

There's also the aspect that an Undead shifter is just better than a sorc helper until level 30.

[simpetar]

Few observations:

1. Since you are not shy to use consumables, why limit yourself only to thid wands. Scribe yourself stacks of weird and thunderclap scrolls. One or the other kills everything up to and including grey renders. Also wand of noxious fog (hive secret) can be used at lvl 11 (or even lower, depending on the remaining charges) and no class restriction. It can kill nearly everyting (except acid dragons: Kard, Cessy, Bloodpool and Grehn and also Razh), up to lvl 37 tags; including (among others) Mother of Corn, Zerya, both zhents, Black Dragon Disciple and Lith.

2. Sorc, unlike undead shifter, has Bigby 9 and IGMS, both supreme boss killers. Shifter in 21-40 may be ok at clearing trash, but unless you are going for a record speed (and wanna minimize resting), sorc can do the same. Also note that during low levels shifter in Drider form has only isaac's LESSER missile storm, and some bosses, especially dragons, are immune to low levels.

3. One of the fastest xp methods in early teens is farm house (and basement) kids. As soon as you can (usually around lvl 11ish), put on something with 10/- bludg resistance, augmenter with CL 40+ acid sheath and stock up on clarity potions or MB scrolls. You can use other kb shields as well. The kids will kill themselves pretty fast, you can mass them, giving you faster xp than east road. The only downside is that their respawn timer is slow, but hopping between 2-3 servers usually does the job.

4. There are many ways to kill Razh. For instance, the sequence time stop -> mord -> grab will shut down his spellcasting and then you can use the acid sheath aug mentioned previously, walk in his melee range and spam heals. He will kill himself very fast on the kb. If you roll a 1 on the vorpal dagger, just rez and repeat. Little faster than the kobold traps and no need to worry about his evasion

5. Many ways of cheese killing Angus too, but none of them include directly tanking him Especially if you have other people with you and he decides to go after them, instead of sticking to your crit immune / everything immune PM.

[chainlink]

Dragging others through Deadpool can be tricky due to the horrific area specific persistent damage unless you happen to have a load of Acid resist/immune items to hand round, I'm sure your characters will be geared but any that are not will be spamming heals like a dog lapping up water just to stay alive.
If you are using a two weapon build like 'Fluffy' for Drey, Drow etc. try to get a MoaD weapon as your offhand item as whilst the damage won't be as good as a second fully buffed level 35 weapon the Breach on hit will slice through casters like a hot knife through butter.

[somes]

Jul 17, 2019 7:16:05 GMT simpetar said:

Few observations:

1. Since you are not shy to use consumables, why limit yourself only to thid wands. Scribe yourself stacks of weird and thunderclap scrolls. One or the other kills everything up to and including grey renders. Also wand of noxious fog (hive secret) can be used at lvl 11 (or even lower, depending on the remaining charges) and no class restriction. It can kill nearly everyting (except acid dragons: Kard, Cessy, Bloodpool and Grehn and also Razh), up to lvl 37 tags; including (among others) Mother of Corn, Zerya, both zhents, Black Dragon Disciple and Lith.

I did mention scrolls, but I guess I should have said it more often. I definitely will get scrolls for the toon. The only thing I would say is that if for too many situations a scroll would be better, how a scroll takes longer than casting a spell, than the argument for having a sorc gets stronger, but fortunately in lowbie levels the wand is better in almost every situation. It's fast, it's easy, and for many tags does the same effect as a Weird, a Thunderclap, a Firewall scroll, etc.

Also, I did not know the Acid fog wand was a thing. That might actually make drastic changes to the guide, a Monk with the Acid fog wand might be even better than either Shifter or Sorc for some level 20 tags.

2. Sorc, unlike undead shifter, has Bigby 9 and IGMS, both supreme boss killers. Shifter in 21-40 may be ok at clearing trash, but unless you are going for a record speed (and wanna minimize resting), sorc can do the same. Also note that during low levels shifter in Drider form has only isaac's LESSER missile storm, and some bosses, especially dragons, are immune to low levels.

The Shifter is for 21-30 by the way, and the thing is a lot of level 20 tags still do not require a Bigby or IGMs.

These are the tags the shifter will be doing:

Formian Matriach - Bigby Immune, susceptible to all types of damage. Can basically one shot a Sorc if any mistakes are made, but with firewall, GS, and BBoD, it should not be an issue. It would be interesting to see if Kobold casting time + walking her to traps beats the rest time + firewall/gs/bbod set up + casting all the spells the Sorc would have to do. However, with all that could go wrong with the Sorc set up vs the Shifter only having to walk the boss to her death, I don't think it's worth it.
Dracolich - Can be cheesed by anyone, anything works here basically. Baelnorn shape basically does what a turner or a sorc with Sunburst will do but faster. Turners would need to turn mobs twice while Sorc has to do the verbal component of the spell.
Grey Render Queen - Banshee's immediate casting of Wail of the Banshee wins here, and if the sorc makes a mistake and lets the Renders wipe out their spells, then the shifter definitely wins.
Hendron - The shifter will be tankier than a mage, and this is where sorcs can really suffer without clever walls, GS +BBoDs, etc. You'll need to cheese through many phases to not die, which is more time wasted, while the Shifter can just run in decked out and wail all the way to the bottom floor.
Urobos - All damage except cold works, and bigby is not needed here due to his low AB relative to other tags/rich boy randomized lowbie items. Even if I played a sorc helper, I would not even waste seconds using Bigby on Spawn of Uro.
Rhazid - You brought up this tag in another point, so I will leave it until later

And you hit it where all the time gets actually wasted; the resting. Not only will the Sorc helper suffer more with human mistakes vs what the shifter would suffer, but if a level 20 Sorc, for example, were to rest after every tag, it would waste 2 minutes and 30 seconds. What me and Prep discussed about XP differences was a difference in seconds that Speedrunners obsess about, so 2 minutes and 30 seconds is an eternity when it comes to speedrunning. Wasting 2 minutes and 30 seconds without receiving massive benefits would not be a debate among speed runners. I did not even add the rests you would have to do again right before facing the Formian Matriarch, the multiple rests you will likely have to do going down the Tower floors, the rest you may not take if you screw up at Renders, the rest you will probably need before facing Uro, and the multiple rests a Sorc will need traversing Rhaz's lair. If you take more levels, the rests actually get longer as well. The Shifter will go up to around level 26, and if the Sorc were to take up to level 26, each rest will be 23 seconds rather than 20 seconds, and those 3 seconds all add up. Did not even talk about the time spent buffing after each rest either.

3. One of the fastest xp methods in early teens is farm house (and basement) kids. As soon as you can (usually around lvl 11ish), put on something with 10/- bludg resistance, augmenter with CL 40+ acid sheath and stock up on clarity potions or MB scrolls. You can use other kb shields as well. The kids will kill themselves pretty fast, you can mass them, giving you faster xp than east road. The only downside is that their respawn timer is slow, but hopping between 2-3 servers usually does the job.

I forgot about this entirely, and I am pretty sure this gives more XP over time than Oltum killing the Taro. I don't even think I would have to test this, I think you are right about this.

4. There are many ways to kill Razh. For instance, the sequence time stop -> mord -> grab will shut down his spellcasting and then you can use the acid sheath aug mentioned previously, walk in his melee range and spam heals. He will kill himself very fast on the kb. If you roll a 1 on the vorpal dagger, just rez and repeat. Little faster than the kobold traps and no need to worry about his evasion

The "getting rezzed" is time lost, but I did not consider the time stop cheese for Rhaz. For it to be better than Shifter, the mage would have to kill Rhaz before he re-applies the spell mantle, which just based on intuition, Rhaz's HP pool seems too large for it to be done. I'm willing to test this out, but this would basically mean I would swap the tag to the level 30 sorc, which I already conceded that this is when Sorc starts to beat the Shifter.

5. Many ways of cheese killing Angus too, but none of them include directly tanking him Especially if you have other people with you and he decides to go after them, instead of sticking to your crit immune / everything immune PM.

Definitely, but remember cheesing rather than just walking in and fighting vs setting up the wall or whatever is a few more seconds lost. It's not hard to tell people to stay back if they don't feel comfortable facing Angus either, and people can still get tags while being dead now. Maybe I should be more explicit in the post, but the idea was to have the level 30 sorc helper, the PM, and shifter banshee walk in to spam death magic in there, so there is still cheesing elements, but I'd rather use the extra seconds putting up a wall/GSing/whatever for an extra few FoDs/Banshee shape Banshee.

[simpetar]

Jul 16, 2019 22:17:48 GMT somes said:

The Drow Hunters - Assassin, DSM, Blackguard Smiter

Now this is where I will raise some eyebrows. Drow saves are too high for even a shackled toon, so insta kills are not ideal. There is also the fact that rangers are better than assassins in every way, but the reason to have Fluffy is to make it easier to multi box, and while Ranger has to make a called shot on a target every time, a dual wielding assassin will have multiple chances to insta kill a target in one round, meaning the Drow have higher chance to roll low against an Assassin than a Ranger. I will put a lot more focus on the DSM and the Smiter to get rid of targets that can't be critted, which are always the ones more likely to cause problems on a run, while the Assassin can insta kill trash. 

As for the choice of picking a DSM instead of a regular Sorc, well, it's for the Hellballs.

For this to work, there is a special attack I like to call the "What Matron?" attack. It's possible to have two Hellballs hit at once. Basically, cast one on the Matron, which will cause it to spin around her. Then you cast the second hellball on yourself a second before the first one you casted hits, then swap to the Blackguard and smite. The Matron is gone before she even can drink a potion. Basically you want the two hells balls and the smite to land at the same time.

Picking between DSM or BFM doesn't make a difference until you face the army of Droghers before Lolth. They possess 90% fire immunity and 50% electric immunity. I will be using BFM how I already have one, but DSM is better overall.

Before Immo, swap out the DSM for a shackled Sorcerer. Death of magic cuts the length of the Immo fight in half... so yea. Sorc wins again.

1. Everything in drow slums has evasion, BFM/DSM are pointless in there.
2. If you intend to have new players with you, the chances are they will not have the hellball fix. You will crash their game repeatedly.
3. A dual wielding assassin does not have more chances per round to land a mortal/penetrating strike. You can have only 1 honed active weapon at once. 2 handed ranger with heavy investment in strength and favored enemies tailored xul-lolth-immo will do better. Medium characters can use spear or trident, but you will have to craft these, or you will not behefit fully from positive damage on them. Small toons can use morning star, heavy pick, longsword or scimitar - all their lvl 35 rare versions have positive on them as well as fire and elec, so a sorc can buff them easily.
4. Blocking matrons' heals with DoM is more error-proof than perfect timing of 2x HB + smite. At any rate, a 2h tank(s) can bring down house matrons fast enough even without the big sudden hit. Queen matron drinks her potions quite early, and that big hit combo is unlikely to finish her off, she has way too much health left - DoM is necessary, if you want to cheese her.
5. Sorc works well even on immo trash (and ofc boss fight). All trash there has evasion, but they take good cold - ice storm is the answer. Mariliths and balors are immune to ice storm, but greater orb of cold hit them hard. Shadow demons are insta killed by sunburst.

[simpetar]

Jul 17, 2019 11:47:37 GMT somes said:

The "getting rezzed" is time lost, but I did not consider the time stop cheese for Rhaz. For it to be better than Shifter, the mage would have to kill Rhaz before he re-applies the spell mantle, which just based on intuition, Rhaz's HP pool seems too large for it to be done. I'm willing to test this out, but this would basically mean I would swap the tag to the level 30 sorc, which I already conceded that this is when Sorc starts to beat the Shifter.

Once he is grabbed, he stops refreshing his mantle and casting, the timestop (wand) is there only as a safety measure. He actually doesn't have large healthpool, but he does have evasion and rather high ac. Having him killed on acid kb is a fairly straightforwardway, or if you want to play it safely, maximized vortex will do the job too, although slower.

[chainlink]

I'd still favor a Sin over a Ranger due to the stick it in the middle of a big group and leave it to MS/chop up everything, no CS enemy interactions required. If you want more damage make a Half-Molydeus Str sin and go two handed as with iron silence/conceal even wearing heavy plate you won't get hit that much and should be able to soak a lot of the incoming damage away.
I'd go Monk 1-4 (for free Cleave & Evasion) Blackguard 6-9 (for saves) and Sin 30 the Monk and BG levels are somewhat flexible but you'll need at least 6 BG to get 16 AB, this build does hillariously high damage mixed in with instakills.
Another trick for Rhazid is to stick slience on the character tanking him then when his spell shield goes down he can't recast so is easy meat for a Bigby 7/9.

[simpetar]

Jul 17, 2019 12:11:11 GMT chainlink said:

I'd still favor a Sin over a Ranger due to the stick it in the middle of a big group and leave it to MS/chop up everything

!action cs opponent

No real interaction required, apart from pushing that button every once in a while, after changing target By lvl 40, ranger will have +8 phys damage, +2 ab and 2 mode dice against FEs (among other bonuses), resulting in higher killing speed.

[chainlink]

I have a load of rangers (which I enjoy playing) however sin beats them hands down on lack of input to instakill stuff, 2 attempts per round vs 1 and a cooldown timer.

[somes]

Jul 17, 2019 11:49:48 GMT simpetar said:

1. Everything in drow slums has evasion, BFM/DSM are pointless in there.
2. If you intend to have new players with you, the chances are they will not have the hellball fix. You will crash their game repeatedly.
3. A dual wielding assassin does not have more chances per round to land a mortal/penetrating strike. You can have only 1 honed active weapon at once. 2 handed ranger with heavy investment in strength and favored enemies tailored xul-lolth-immo will do better. Medium characters can use spear or trident, but you will have to craft these, or you will not behefit fully from positive damage on them. Small toons can use morning star, heavy pick, longsword or scimitar - all their lvl 35 rare versions have positive on them as well as fire and elec, so a sorc can buff them easily.
4. Blocking matrons' heals with DoM is more error-proof than perfect timing of 2x HB + smite. At any rate, a 2h tank(s) can bring down house matrons fast enough even without the big sudden hit. Queen matron drinks her potions quite early, and that big hit combo is unlikely to finish her off, she has way too much health left - DoM is necessary, if you want to cheese her.
5. Sorc works well even on immo trash (and ofc boss fight). All trash there has evasion, but they take good cold - ice storm is the answer. Mariliths and balors are immune to ice storm, but greater orb of cold hit them hard. Shadow demons are insta killed by sunburst.

Number 2 is probably the strongest argument, but basically what I can do is just encourage players to install the hellball fix during breaks. Even without BFM/DSM, they will need it for the Yuan-Tis, so basically this would be a message I would have to prepare during the train.

The thing is, most spells just suck on Drow (relative to other level 40 tags). The spells that can't be evaded have terrible dies, and spells with nice damage tend to be single target. Spells that are good on drow overall like Vortex of Teeth and Evards can be used by BFMs and DSMs due to them ignoring SR too. However, BFMs and DSMs do get extra spell pen on their damage spells, and when I tested my Radiance Genasi BFM, a lot of the spells on non-Dexers still landed, especially when I massed them. The strategy is to mass right before the Matron for KC, use BFM/DSM spells while having my 2h smiter and sin on Dexers, which they can often kill with one crit.

Soups are also good how in general how a target is bound to fail saves when they have to do it constantly, and the only reason I chose DSM/BFM over Herald was for the hellballs. The only thing that could beat this would be empowered/maximized ice storms from a regular sorc, but I think the instakill the hellballs provide is better than the few extra seconds ice storm affords vs the minutes instakilling the matron would provide.

I also already tested the "What Matron?" attack. You don't even need to time it exactly, you just need to aim it that way to guarantee success. I sometimes forgot to precast the first hellball, and most of the time I still instakilled the Matron with a delayed second ball. The two hell balls alone kill most Matrons, the extra smite is needed for some of the meatier mini bosses inside the final Lolth house and to instakill one of Lolth's spiders in the final phase.

Also Droghers don't get evasion, and the room that has an army of them can be quite a time sinker, and a DSM would be the fastest in clearing that room. Even if you were right on everything Simp, DSM pubstomping the tens of Droghers that are immune to pretty much everything would beat whatever advantage a regular sorc had by using ice storms or whatever.

As for number 5, I'm already going to swap the BFM for a regular sorc for the ice storms and DoM, so I am with you there.

The Ranger vs. Sin thing has more to do with multiboxing rather than what is better, as I already agree with Ranger being better. It's just choosing whether I want a better toon vs. having an easier time multiboxing.
Invisibility purge is quite nice for Drows too.

Edit: I made mistake when it came to Mortal strike, simp was right. And Invisibility purge doesn't affect Drow concealment until level 46, so nevermind on that.

[somes]

I edited and made some changes based on the responses and testing.

My record so far from Orc Chief to Corpse Lord (Plus Lava King, Elder Orb and Kardi), which would be leg #1 on the post, took 1 hour and 39 minutes. To compare, Johan made it to this point around the 3 hour mark by only playing one toon with no cheese and no rare subraces. I could probably cut it down to 1:15 with no slacking.

I'm trying to see if I can do all the non-40 tags in 3 hours, might be a little too ambitious though.