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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 24, 2019 1:40:28 GMT
I am not sure if your response was to me Sabre, but let me know if it was not. Are you trying to say to me that it's not about what is actually being done, but the consequences of those actions? What defines an exploit would be the consequences rather than the actual act itself? Not really what I took from what she said, or what I would say. Exploits are exploits in that they involve interacting with the game environs in a way not intended by the designers. Whether or not the exploit will have consequences generally hews to how seriously the given exploit effects game balance. This is not rocket science. Funky
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Post by manuka on Jul 24, 2019 1:43:37 GMT
20k or 40k canos it doesn't change much that was a rough guess based on the short time the bug as been known.for what 3 weeks? the fact is I have been solo farming Limbo for years and you just deleted years worth of loot. waaaay to much to make it worth playing. I would have happily thrown out 39k worth of xr loot. I believe I had 7-10k canos unspent in my bank chests. And alot on toons.
It is clear you have no idea how fast we can solo farm limbo1 and 2 and the amount of time I put into it to gain such a huge wealth.
Also the fact you think the bug disrupted the market at all shows you clearly havnt played the game in a long time if you think there is any kind of market
The market was dead the day people started solo boxing runs
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Post by werehoundsilverfang on Jul 24, 2019 2:42:42 GMT
Objectively speaking, banning for this would be way over the top. IIRC neither Werehound nor Matt received bans after using DM powers (stolen in Matt's case) to genuinely hack the game. They were defrocked for abusing dm powers. If you want to compare apples to apples, Werehound illigitimately tampered with (if memory serves) three items to boost his DC. I'm happy indifferent to admit that I had also spawned augmenters that I don't recall ever dropping (e.g. Aboleth's) to apply to rings and other sorts of gear. None of the modified gear ever hit the playerbase. IIRC I was farming BURs but KE was removing them from the market as I was putting them in. I stopped that pretty quick when I knew he was onto me and just stuffed my bank for personal use. NB: I can't recall my old account details, but it's really me. Edit: Defrocked, all chars wiped, tags, subraces, etc. Banks wiped, wallet wiped. I was left with my DM pet, and 3 legitimate items for sale in the auction chest that left me with 8(?) billion gp, all of which i re-offered up in case it was missed. I was graciously left with the GP and pet, really.
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Post by swiftgabriel on Jul 24, 2019 3:05:21 GMT
I have partied with both "players in question", and I think it is clear to many people on the server whether you like them or not, that they are probably the two of the very few that can solo limbo on their own as quickly as they do. The times I have been apart of their runs they do in amazing time and the countless times I have seen them doing it alone easily can make up large amounts of canos they previously had. They were curious on something apart of the endgame that not many people would have ever thought of and it worked. If it is as difficult as people claim it is no easy "exploit". I understand wanting to take away the loot they acquired and how difficult it must be to see what exactly they got from it, but to say they were tipping the economy is a bit of an overstatement in my opinion. Before this "exploit", they were still the some of the few who had good amounts of XR items anyway. However many canos they got from this, taking away all of the other things that they had gotten over the years is not going to help the economy as they were some of the biggest traders on the server.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 24, 2019 3:20:12 GMT
20k or 40k canos it doesn't change much that was a rough guess based on the short time the bug as been known.for what 3 weeks? the fact is I have been solo farming Limbo for years and you just deleted years worth of loot. waaaay to much to make it worth playing. I would have happily thrown out 39k worth of xr loot. I believe I had 7-10k canos unspent in my bank chests. And alot on toons. No. You don't get to make an argument based off of the ratio of items illegitimately gained versus those destroyed being somehow unfair to you, then claim the ratio doesn't matter after I point out that you have grossly distorted said ratio in a self-serving manner. And gee, why didn't we just trust you to self-regulate? I can't imagine. Are you really this dumb? What is clear is that you have no idea what we are logging. You stupidly gambled on us not finding out, and paid the price. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 24, 2019 3:24:31 GMT
I understand wanting to take away the loot they acquired and how difficult it must be to see what exactly they got from it, but to say they were tipping the economy is a bit of an overstatement in my opinion. On what data are you basing this sagacious opinion?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 24, 2019 3:51:31 GMT
waaaay to much to make it worth playing. Since that's how you feel, I have dropped the banhammer. Ditto on prepared, the other player invoved, who appeared to be about to start gear dumping. Asses, doors, good riddance. Funky
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Post by swiftgabriel on Jul 24, 2019 3:51:45 GMT
It was based off the fact that the 38 thousand canos that they had gotten from this “exploit” they kept mostly to themselves. They were already some of the richest players on the server so them adding to that didn’t change much in the economy. But if they did trade all the canos away for arguments sake, then more people would have canos opening up more subs and gear for some players who would havn’t gotten the chance to get to limbo yet, but with new items can get into deeper runs. Opening up future trading opportunities for the rest of the server which would better the economy. So take away the 38,800 canos in gear and subs and other canos but taking away the majority of everything they had collected over the years is too much, but that’s my sagacious opinion.
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Post by bloodthirst on Jul 24, 2019 4:12:03 GMT
Since it seems to fall into a bit of a grey area, I am curious as to why the offending players weren't contacted privately and notified the gig was up and some agreement reached for a suitable resolution. If that failed then I would have thought the heavy handed approach would have been justified. It is worrying to me that this is how it was handled right off the bat.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 4:17:44 GMT
I wasn't going to say anything except my !chat until your last reply Funky. I didn't gear dump, had zero intentions of doing so. You did what you felt appropriate. I never replied to this post, I never complained, I never spoke poorly of anyone. If you check the logs, my gear dumping was all into a trash canister. Manuka's opinions on this are separate from my own. While we both participated, and you gave us the consequences you felt fair, and applied leniency to that, of which I am grateful. I was deleting my characters, purged my accounts, and have ended anything HG. This was done prior to your ban, and was a decision I made knowing I wasn't banned, and could, if I so chose, take what you left me pre-exploit, and continue on.
I didn't argue with you, or on here, I didn't say a word to anyone. I even deleted my forum account prior to that. Wanted to post this just to clear that up. Anyway, good-luck to HG. In August you'll have a new area, and in three days you'll have one more. I have had quite a lot of fun here and I decided to end my chapter. Ban or not I was done. Thanks for the hard work and for all that you and others have done. And I truly do appreciate even with everything I had done that you were willing to provide me another opportunity. I can see why you lumped the two of us together in this instance, but, it makes me sad at the same time.
Anyway, this will be my last post, and then this account too will be deleted. To all of my friends it has been a wonderful ride. We have done a lot of great things together. We have done quite a lot of content and formed fantastic relationships along the way. For all the people who dislike, hate, or despise. I'm sorry for the trouble. Your wish is granted and I am no longer. Regardless of how anyone feels, I hope others can feel the niche and the void that will be left with the departure of myself and Manuka. I hope things move forward with the module here, and EE if that ever comes to fruition.
I've enjoyed the company, the memories and the ride. Farewell to you all, for good.
$0.02
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 24, 2019 8:36:43 GMT
It was based off the fact that the 38 thousand canos that they had gotten from this “exploit” they kept mostly to themselves. And how did you come to that conclusion, praytell? Whatever the case, you are completely incorrect. First, 'they' did not get 38,800 canos - that was Manuka's half. Second, the thing that tipped us off intially, as it usually is, was their unusual transactiosn with other players. I don't know why you are making up 'facts' to defend these clowns. This makes absolutely no sense. The relative wealth of a player engaging in this exploit, which, I will reiterate, is far and away the worst in scale we have seen on this server in terms of stolen playtime, has absolutely no relevance to the impact on the server. This betrays a complete failure of understanding of our concerns. Acceleration of power creep is the PROBLEM, not a benefit. If you want to understand, I have filled pages on this topic, which is wrapped up in weighing power creep against development zots. Search the forums, if you actually care. Given that you haven't read half of what I have typed in this thread, however, I'm not holding my breath. Again, it was not just 38,800 canos, which you would know had you paid any attention. That was just Manuka's haul in canopics, or about half of the total, and doesn't even touch on BURs and set loot. And had they actually just collected canopics, the fix would have been relatively easy. They did not. In fact, they converted a lot of them to other loot, per the following log. So, in order to wave my magic wand to undo the damage they caused, we would have to trace, locate, and destroy each of those items. That alone would take dozens of hours, and would require me to freeze out their characters until I found time to finish all of it, which would take about as long as the work I have remaining on the next area set. While I'm flattered that you value my time so highly, the reason that we have not had a lot of updates recently is that I have a RL job. The reason that I'm posting at this hour is that I was at that job until after midnight tonight. It's nice that you value Manuka's time so much more highly than mine, but even if the task stopped there this would not remotely address the situation. For you see, they were trading items to other players, which means that in order to trace them all, I would have had to lock out the entire server until we could finish. And on net, it would probably take me somewhere around 800-1000 hours of work to untangle that mess. Do you fancy waiting a couple of years for me to unravel their mess? Didn't think so. Here's another way to look at it, since some among you appear sympathetic to Manuka's sob story, which is not remotely accurate. But then, why would you take my word over it when he has so clearly been above-board? These players found the most severe glitch we have ever had, and exploited it to such an extent that it distorted the entire server economy. In response, we took the only remotely time-effective approach to undoing the damage, by wiping vaults accessed since they began exploiting 3 weeks ago, and removing XR subs they had tagged since the exploit. Manuka thinks that this is terribly unfair, because reasons. And you know what? He's right. What we should've done is invest the literal hundreds of hours of time it would've taken to spot-delete all the items and subraces they wrongfully acquired, going on an individual basis one unique id at a time. Of course, that would not solve the issue of all the items they acquired by trading canopics, or the innocent purchasers of those items who traded for value. But hey, why should we prioritize things that benefit the entire community instead of one player? Doubtless we could have gotten it right eventually right? Probably should have downed the servers to ensure it took as little time as possible to sort through all the affected bic files without having to rescan each one as it was accessed had the servers been left running. Clearly, my time is not worth anything, so why should any other player's but Manuka's be either? I mean, we could probably have gone live again in a month or two, tops, assuming I quit my job, and Manuka would not have had a single item wrongfully lost. What's a few thousand hours of my time compared to justice for this upright citizen? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.Funky [EDITED TO MODERATE TONE SLIGHTLY...I was not in a good mood after a sixteen hour work day, which would only have been a fourteen hour work day if not for this debacle]
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 24, 2019 8:40:23 GMT
I wasn't going to say anything except my !chat until your last reply Funky. I didn't gear dump, had zero intentions of doing so. You did what you felt appropriate. I never replied to this post, I never complained, I never spoke poorly of anyone. If you check the logs, my gear dumping was all into a trash canister. Manuka's opinions on this are separate from my own. While we both participated, and you gave us the consequences you felt fair, and applied leniency to that, of which I am grateful. I was deleting my characters, purged my accounts, and have ended anything HG. This was done prior to your ban, and was a decision I made knowing I wasn't banned, and could, if I so chose, take what you left me pre-exploit, and continue on. I didn't argue with you, or on here, I didn't say a word to anyone. I even deleted my forum account prior to that. Wanted to post this just to clear that up. Anyway, good-luck to HG. In August you'll have a new area, and in three days you'll have one more. I have had quite a lot of fun here and I decided to end my chapter. Ban or not I was done. Thanks for the hard work and for all that you and others have done. And I truly do appreciate even with everything I had done that you were willing to provide me another opportunity. I can see why you lumped the two of us together in this instance, but, it makes me sad at the same time. Anyway, this will be my last post, and then this account too will be deleted. To all of my friends it has been a wonderful ride. We have done a lot of great things together. We have done quite a lot of content and formed fantastic relationships along the way. For all the people who dislike, hate, or despise. I'm sorry for the trouble. Your wish is granted and I am no longer. Regardless of how anyone feels, I hope others can feel the niche and the void that will be left with the departure of myself and Manuka. I hope things move forward with the module here, and EE if that ever comes to fruition. I've enjoyed the company, the memories and the ride. Farewell to you all, for good. $0.02 If nothing else, you demonstrated some class with this post. You will be missed. Best, Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 24, 2019 8:44:47 GMT
Since it seems to fall into a bit of a grey area, I am curious as to why the offending players weren't contacted privately and notified the gig was up and some agreement reached for a suitable resolution. If that failed then I would have thought the heavy handed approach would have been justified. It is worrying to me that this is how it was handled right off the bat. There's no grey area, and our approach was not remotely heavy-handed, as I hope my most recent post made clear. And why on earth would we warn them, multiplying the amount of time we had to spend fixing things? They are fully aware of the server's exploit policy. They opted to gamble that they would not get caught, and lost. Since you appear confused, the policy is simple: if you find something that doesn't appear to be working correctly, or conveys disproportionate advantage, report it. We'll let you know if it's a problem. By choosing not to report, you assume the risk that we will have to take steps to undo any adverse consequences when we do discover it. This policy promotes active bug reporting over exploiting, and saves immense amounts of development zots, which are always in short supply. For the record, this gamble has yet to pay off, and it's very easy to avoid their fate. Funky
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Post by simpetar on Jul 24, 2019 9:23:29 GMT
But hey, why should we prioritize things that benefit the entire community instead of one player? This one is thought provoking. I have no doubt you and Sabregirl did what had to be done in cleaning up the mess and ensuring that it wouldn't happen again. You have access to game logs and developer's insight into the game economy/balance that few if any of us here have. What you do not have however - and I write this with all appreciation and respect to you for keeping HG going - is insight into the community dynamics. In other words, you miss out on the "word on the street". No matter how Prep and Manuka were loved/loathed/indifferent to, they were an integral part of HG. I personally did not party with them extensively (after couple runs I found our play styles were somewhat incompatible), but good number of other players did. My concern is that forcing either or both out will also trigger other players to leave, because they will simply not find buddies to party with. Which brings me to the first point: what is good for the server vs. one player. There just isn't a massive influx of new or returning players to fill this gap.
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Post by manuka on Jul 24, 2019 10:04:57 GMT
Lol of course we knew this bug would be found out. Every other single bug I have been in has been found out. We blatantly spammed it while chain link the dm was playing and put in 0 effort to concealing it or going slow... i wanted to abuse it for the short while it was there.i play the game as fast and efficient as possible with the goal of my character being as powerful as possible.There is no way this bug being around for a long time would be fun. As there was no point in doing anything else while this bug worked, with it being so rewarding. However I wrongly assumed the bug would just be patched with no consequences, as had every other bug I have experienced or been told about in my time on hg Again I am obviously bad at getting my point across my only issuse is that I believe you didnt handle it right and the consequence was so severe for a action I wrongly assumed had no consequences, based on my prior experience with bugs and what I have been told and read as quoted by poli.
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