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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 17:46:03 GMT
Ok... a bit of a complainy post... but I am just feeling a bit frustrated with the state of the server these days. I love HG. I have been here for (embarassingly enough...) close to 13 years. That is a huge amount of time spent. Most likely true that it's been a bunch of time wasted, however I have very much enjoyed most of the time here. Perhaps I should have ventured off into other games (Free cell, chess, mah jong and hill climb racing just don't have the same long lasting enjoyment) but there is just something about this game that keeps me here hoping for more.
I know that HG cycles people in and out and in and out again, but I am wondering if the lower server population will ever break more than 20 players anymore. Maybe bots are the problem. Maybe not. If one were to argue that point, at least runs can get going with bots in party. I always hope to fill runs with real people, its way more fun. But it can also be a deterrent because people are more hesitant to ask the botters if they can join. Or maybe the person with bots wants to be left alone but can't anon. And there's the definite power imbalance with bots for sure. So what to do...
Atm, only one guild is still functional, with the possibility of one other, though that is debatable. I keep hearing that the game is dead. I guess it is when there hasn't been any life breathed into it in quite sometime. (I know RL comes first). There are some glaring issues: XR weps op, 2-handers op, eradicate op, XR races (quite a few very blah), new players not sticking around longer than lvl 13, and older players extremely jaded. Several people I have talked to just don't want to commit the time anymore.
There is only one real DM that is about.
And then this: I just really want to know if there will be more to the server. If not, that's just the way it is, I guess.
Ray
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Post by woqued on Sept 9, 2019 19:06:25 GMT
It's not like something being delayed a bit has been a display of it never happening. Limbo being a prime example - it happened, just took a long time. Something not happening in August as promised not having happened in early September was quite frankly expected considering the open comments on life being particularly hectic in recent months from the Dev team.
Speaking of the botting; perhaps Anon would be a welcome addition again simply to be able to separate people who want company and those who don't, so we know who to go talk to on Webdash or !who all, not leaving it up to guesswork.
--Now, to follow up the rant with another rant: For me being away has a lot to do with a few things. *skip all of the following to avoid extensive ranting*
1. Feeling of completion 2. Sufficient prowess of the character on paper 3. Being helpful 4. Time spent to progress
... Every old toon getting outdated and facing a HUGE cost to progress forward (from BUR to XR) is extreme - finding TWO books of a subrace that are supposed to be specialized to single classes.......... so they have little value over a specific thing? Time invested to get those was already large. Then seeing the time investment to be made to catch up on the new XR toons to the old BUR toons if you don't upgrade in terms of power feels like an insurmountable wall. A big part about the giddiness of making a new toon was the prospect of THAT TOON eventually reaching the pinnacle of power for that character, gear subrace and all - now that pinnacle is behind either literally crazy mental farming or insane RNG - and even combining those it might be unreachable.
Upgrading an UR subrace character to BUR being tricky but by no means impossible or even hard (directly to the subrace of choice; i.e Fallen Angel to Half-Celestial, not Fallen Angel to Furchin to Half-Celestial) was so much cheaper that it didn't feel bad to make an UR character, at all. But going from a BUR to XR is such an insane limbo grind away for EVERY CHARACTER holy moly. All of the chars are looking at me feeling frustrated.
Then there's the fact that the game is still relatively easy; just everything feels like it has been made *slower* not harder; excluding tank damage. XR weapons do crazy damage, many weaker classes have been brought up and stronger ones have been arguably fairly significantly nerfed // see Hell mob immunity changes, RG/Fissure/Poison/Instakill nerfs - Nerfs to demigod penalties (so the game is easier to survive, but slower to clear) - it's not like a proper setup doesn't work, but things die slower in general unless you hit them with a tad overtuned 70+ Limbo-Only drop - in which case they flop over.
Now, RG/Fissure were in need of nerfs no doubt. Not sure Hell trash deserved more defenses though. Issue is going from "too easy and too fast" a la arcane/shifter + bard + anything to "even easier and significantly slower" on a group of tanks + stuff to buff them with with pick any of B+a/c/d is my problem with doing a re-do, on any character. Character power has gone up, monster teeth have gone down, yet fun tools have been taken away - Example: a pariah having Disintegrate for Erinyes; the bane of their existence; identify target fast, use correct spell fast, or end dominated. Now you wait for others to deal with it while engaging in bondage.
Then incentive to get Demix7 was made bigger... So it's more worthwhile now, enough to drool over it (I preferred the demihood bonuses other way round, Abysswin x5 is less painful than x7 demi but that's just my opinion; in big part because you can do them in any order). Either way; there should be more incentive to progress more on characters, which is good, but if you're doing things AGAIN on a similar but more sturdy character, progressing slower than last time around.. Meh.
So, for me - to re-clear the game on a Stronger character, that simply doesn't die to anything unless I choose to wear bad items or to deliberately play on a bad build /worse than my old ones/ it will be a huge time investment to do something i've done before but easier and slower... See the lack of appeal? Else just farm Limbo over and over and over and over hoping to get lucky to progress reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally slowly.
Then there's the part where most people playing don't need help with anything pre-60; they might want company though. But you just don't get that feeling of being helpful when you show up to beg for buffs to "help out" with a run they were going to complete anyway for better loot without you there.
Now I know that's many ranty paragraphs about the progression for oldtimers like me, mostly repeating "it's slower and easier, we already did it tens of times, we don't wanna do it even more even easier without reasonable possibility of upgrade outside Limbo" - but I guess I like hammering a nail many times with a small blunt instead of once with a heavy big one.
This post isn't about fixing things since it's arguable if there is even anything to fix (the game is still good, just we played it so much already).
But If there was a request or a few to make they've already been made - stuff like Limbo pt2 hard completion unlocking XR subrace reincarnation for that character and/or a single XR weapon acquisition upon tagging akin to a Vestige.. slight XR weapon nerfs, Hell tagging order opened up from 123456789 to any order, hardmode Abyss/Hell/Elysium/Aboleths as a potential cano source, "Just release Mechanus/Elder Evils already! Surely that only takes 30 mins of your time haha!"etc. But then again there's no guarantee that'd take away the "man, doing this old stuff is slower than it used to be and it's still too easy" feeling from someone who has already spent too many hours in the game. And again, there have been many good changes made to the game - but the limited time there is to develop a game as a hobby while listening to people that can be anything from grateful to insane to downright hurtful or otherwise entitled is something else. Then there's the NWN:EE part and blah blah.
TLDR: Complaints about doing same shit again but easier and slower even disregarding the subrace upgrade without gaining stuff unless doing Limbo hundreds of times isn't a pleasant prospect, even before getting into it. Makes sense for some of us to take time off.
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Post by drunkenboastor on Sept 9, 2019 19:55:14 GMT
The simple reason why Hg is so dead is because there are no runs. Without efforts to increase the amount of publicly open organized runs, I do not see any chance of the population ever increasing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 20:21:51 GMT
I organized scheduled runs for 4 months. It was the same people that participated. Towards the end it was getting quite difficult to get the classes needed. But yeah, I wouldn't mind doing that again if there was actual interest.
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Post by Methes on Sept 9, 2019 21:36:30 GMT
I see two main problems HG is facing.
First it's the age of the game. It's seriously old. People play it only because of nostalgia. Graphics are nothing to write home about, that can be forgiven. The GUI though. It's just horrible. It was never ment to be used for the scope of things HG offers. Controlling your character and his actions is extremely bad in todays standards. What's worse it's not modable. If you could change the GUI it would be a huge lifechanger.
Second is how the server areas were originally developed. The 10 player cap was introduced because too many people wanted to play in the same party. Imagine that. Now that getting 3 people together for a run is a lot, you're stuck with content that was not designed for so few players. Sure, with power creep and experience you can overcome this obstacle but it should not exist in the first place. The runs are long for todays standard. That is a problem even more exaggerated by fewer people available. That in turn makes people play most effective classes cause who would want to lengthen already too long runtime so you are soft forced to play something you might not like 100%.
I love pre Hell content just because I can solo or duo it. I know Hell+ is where the "fun" begins, where the quality of content ramps up but the # of players demands and time demands have always been too high for me.
TL;DR: spending too long in a game with horrible controls and GUI to play content you have trouble getting enough players together for too small reward in todays gaming industry.
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Post by desocupado on Sept 9, 2019 23:21:11 GMT
TL;DR: spending too long in a game with horrible controls and GUI to play content you have trouble getting enough players together for too small reward in todays gaming industry. Progression is slow - the loot chances here sort of feels like something like the old ragnarok online. Experience and tags feel similarly slow. Little can be done about controls and UI - but indeed they are sluggish (horribly outdated would be the most accurate description) I'd add long run duration to the list. It was the thing that made my first friend on this server leave it long ago. For what's worth, it's still better than Diablo 3 in terms of gameplay depth and ragnarok online.
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Post by gladi8or on Sept 10, 2019 1:32:48 GMT
HG is awesome because of the people who are here and the customisation of characters in terms of build strength and overall appearance.
However, sometimes in Pre LL's the game feels more of a grind to find experience enough to be able to complete tags, especially for new players who haven't learned the tricks or techniques that some of us long time players have acquired over the years. A suggestion could be to either give more experience for quests, perhaps not as much as it was in the past before the exp was rolled back, or to allow players to obtain more exp during pre-ll tags. For example, if you are level 25 you don't get very much exp during lvl 25 tags until the boss. Yes, I know, they can be accomplished at lower levels, but not necessarily for new players. Also, the canopic drop rate increasing would be more rewarding for runs that are very long. As an alternative, the suggestion above allowing Bur toons to be reincarnated to Xr toons without a second book would also allow many of us to retool some of our Bur toons rather than leave them sitting there not being used anymore after several hours of time spent building them.
A few tweeks might make HG more attractive to new players and vets. Overall, we have a pretty awesome place to play, but an increase in population would be beneficial for all of us.
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Post by supaflytnt80 on Sept 10, 2019 1:50:41 GMT
I stopped playing solely due to run duration. I simply can't dedicate hours to an end game run. I have a family and a business, which means I almost never have that amount of time to play a game. I still read the forums because I still love the game but I just can't play it any more. It's a shame because I felt like I had more to accomplish in end game areas. I can't imagine future areas being developed as LESS of a time sink either...
I see all of this as a function of the age of the game. I grew up and life happened. I doubt I'm alone in that regard.
Maybe when I retire I can come back and play! See everyone in 25 years!
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Post by manuka on Sept 11, 2019 0:46:35 GMT
Well err all I can say is me pahg prep quit for having our loot deleted for not breaking any rules. Then most of our guild also stopped playing.
c. Exploits i. The DM team has a fairly good handle on potential exploits. We prefer to deal with exploits by scripting around them, in order to keep cumbersome rules to a minimum. Generally speaking, if your character CAN do something, they are welcome to do so, so long as it doesn't violate any of the rules listed below. ii. We do ask, however, that you report any exploits you might find to a DM, using DM channel.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 1:00:55 GMT
bitter much?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 2:04:26 GMT
My thoughts based on my previous playtime + stalking forums/Webdash (as so many ex-players seem to do!): 1. Mass multi-boxing (3+ toons at a time) was proven to be extraordinarily efficient, to the point where not using it would feel like restricting yourself 2. For the above reason, many players either a) started mass multi-boxing or b) quit ; this compounded problem 1 3. A server full of multi-boxers is a gigantic turn off to new players who usually don't want to multi-box but feel stunted without it, or they gave it a shot and couldn’t experience the world’s magic because they were trying to learn to control 3-4 toons at once... so new player retention sank from low to basically zero 4. A handful of mass multi-boxers were able to solo endgame runs (eg: Prep/Manuka/Truefalse), while the others were not; outside of scheduled runs, most endgame runs would need to be ‘led’ by a boxer who could solo it anyway, and was thus essentially dragging others. This greatly changed the dynamic of runs, as non-elite players joining in no longer made meaningful contributions, and were really just there out of the generosity of elite multi-boxers, who could have run alone and gotten more loot instead. This is obviously less fun for everyone. 5. A good example of the dependence on these boxers was when Prep and Truefalse started playing HC mode, which catalysed a large proportion of the server to follow over to HC during that phase ( see here). 6. After SsendemGate, most of these few mass multi-boxers who used to ‘lead’ (ie: drag) runs have quit/ dramatically cut down playtime, so those endgame runs have mostly dried up ————— With so many people having left with no new players to replace them, it isn’t a surprise for it to feel like scheduled runs are the only runs getting off the ground, and that it’s always the same faces present. Too many non-boxers were driven away in the last ~2 years, and with their loss the server grew very dependent on a handful of players, particularly Prep. Love him or hate him, the activity decline after Prep's quitting speaks for itself. The unfortunate reality is that there probably isn’t a good way to get things back on track. Hindsight is always 20/20, but IMO mass-multi boxing needed to be restricted 1-2 years ago to avoid getting here (eg: capped at dual-boxing as was suggested previously). With today’s numbers it is simply too late to restrict mass multi-boxing now, it would kill whatever is left of the population. I personally doubt new content or patches will really change much - there are just too many players that have been lost due to not wanting to mass multi-box, and so few new players sticking around.
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Post by sabregirl on Sept 11, 2019 3:33:50 GMT
I will say there are quite a few spreadsheets outlining new areas as well as the final boss area. The newest area, Tragidore is a bit of a hint of what is to come, as is Arcane Archive, the next area. Archive is maddeningly close to done, but not actually done obviously.
Though not often on the forums there's a fair bit more lively discussions on the DM discord. Unfortunately, midweek is terrible timing, hopefully they will have time to respond sometime this week.
We are also quite aware of other issues mentioned and have plans to try and address them. Mechanus is next on the list after archive but there are other smaller additions, more class buffs etc that will hopefully be coming sooner. Unfortunately I follow the academic calendar so classes are taking up more time at current but I will be trying to work on a few things here and there.
-S
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 4:40:07 GMT
Thank you, SG. I appreciate the update. I do apologize for complaining... It's just that I have so much fun here and I miss many of the people that have left because of reasons. I know you all do so much for the server and life gets hectic and busy. It is nice to know that there really are plans for the future. Perhaps people will return when the new areas are dropped.
Ray
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Post by chainlink on Sept 11, 2019 6:54:01 GMT
I stopped playing solely due to run duration. I simply can't dedicate hours to an end game run. I have a family and a business, which means I almost never have that amount of time to play a game. I still read the forums because I still love the game but I just can't play it any more. It's a shame because I felt like I had more to accomplish in end game areas. I can't imagine future areas being developed as LESS of a time sink either... I see all of this as a function of the age of the game. I grew up and life happened. I doubt I'm alone in that regard. Maybe when I retire I can come back and play! See everyone in 25 years! I wholeheartedly agree end mod runs are not a drop in and drop out situation meaning that unless you have several hours to spare it is very difficult to commit to them. This actually ties in with the multi boxing as this means you can do runs with breaks of your choice as you know other people will not have to bail (or you have to wait for them to do other stuff) during the run potentially meaning its not possible to complete.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Sept 11, 2019 13:39:18 GMT
Hi all,
Sorry I missed the deadline on AA. Suffice to say RL has been insanely busy, but as Sab says it is nearly done. I will try to make a push to finish it this week.
Best, Funky
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