|
Post by moe on Sept 11, 2019 14:57:37 GMT
As someone who has "returned" more than once. I thought I might add my observations.
1. The LL Runs are for people who have more time to dedicate to this game than I do. (And I'm retired) I'm not just talking about long runs, but also the number of runs repeated endlessly in search of specific items needed to progress even further.
2. I avoid "bot runs". Although I don't mind being "drug" while I'm learning a run, I am reluctant to join a party where I am not needed. It runs contrary to my mental image of a Hero saving the Day. I know those people will often encourage "leachers", but that's not how I want to play.
3. Along with the "new areas" concept. I would suggest one more "Lower Forty" optional quest/run/whatever. With all the tags and quests already in place, one can easily run thru all the levels to 40 - except the lower 20's. You always end up grinding xp at the Abandoned Farm or PoW waiting til you can get those +7 weapons. I would disagree with the suggestion that xp be increased for quests - as I find that I have to sit on levels now to avoid outrunning the tags. (with that one exception) In fact, I am thinking about skipping the quests for my next toon to see how long it takes without all the bonus xp. I am thinking about areas I know are there, but have not visited due to not needing xp and no quests or tags there. I remember running thru the underdark on a regular basis back in the day. I'm looking for a way to get from Lvl 3 to Lvl 40 without going the EXACT same route every single time.
5. I solo a lot because I don't like sitting around waiting for something to happen. AND, when I get physically or mentally tired, I can quit without affecting anyone else's game. I don't mind sitting around for a few minutes while someone deals with something in RL, but I cannot stand to just sit around watching the Dashboard or idleing in game waiting for people to show up. I much prefer to start out on my own to best utilize MY available time.
6. I feel that one of the BEST Features of HG is the variety. Us casual gamers can enjoy the Hell out of the Lower Forty and Hard Core Lifers can still make awesome LL runs. People can -HC-, if that is their thing. I LOVE the ability to explore new builds and new Classes. (without expecting the build to make it to Demix5 - whatever the heck that means - lol)
7. I don't care what they do with HG, as long as it hangs around. I bought NWN EE and played on it before returning this last time. It's like comparing a short story to the Lord of the Rings (with HG being LOTR) There is so much MORE here!
GREAT JOB! Keep it up! Go Team Go! <insert inspirational praise here>
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Sept 12, 2019 16:36:51 GMT
derail, but i feel like this thread pretty much accomplished what it set out to do? it seems that the top 2 mentions here pretty much boil down to multiboxing/population issues on the one hand and time issues on the other. not to be a negative nancy but i think it's safe to say that #1 is just not something we can really do much about at this juncture. much like ever when something happens that causes a guild to fall apart and run-influencing players leave, post facto there's not a whole lot to do about that. and when it comes to influential players leaving, and multiboxing being a cancer...the cat's out of the bag, that ship has sailed, there's no going back, it is what it is, and so forth. however, #2 is a thing that we still have full control over. we can't change the facts of life which contribute to aging players playing less, and we can't change the past either. but we can still change the game. maybe adding some kind of waypoint mechanic that tracks your spawn/loot/keydropper/matrix progress in the same fashion as the skull (albeit on a more detailed level) could help with time. i still cringe at the notion of making the game any "ezier" but i think one of the biggest recurring themes for years now is simply that runs take too long and the progression is cumbersome (and i think many feel outdated, but that's getting offtrack). careful readers who pay close attention to posts of players like woqued (as they should) probably notice a trend of "abyss cycles are easier to complete than hells, because you can go out of order etc". it's true. the ability to break each abyss realm down into a smaller bite-sized chunk, effectively "save" your progress via the pop/attunement/portal-per-map structure, results in a "run cycle" that's far friendlier for "today's HGer" and much more manageable for a player with the needs of a real "adult" (and possibly a parent as well), not a teenager, nerdy 20something, or college kid on holiday like most of us used to be "back when we really played a lot". i think i've mentioned this before in regard to limbo, but speaking for myself, it would be a night/day change for me will/ability to play HG if i didn't have to devote such a block of time at once for endgame runs, and as for cycling new chars, if i could play thru demi hell cycles more like abyss. i know it seems like a huge amount of effort, but if you could have your skull (or a different item) somehow track your progress thru a run and let you restart at a waypoint/checkpoint type portal, that'd be pretty cool. i don't have a lot of other ideas for fixing hg or making it more lively, but i genuinely do think time conflicts have had just as much if not more impact on hg pop decline than guilds getting banned or carried casuals giving up. i think it's just less flashy and harder to point a finger at anything to blame, so even though we talk about how the times they are a changin, and life is moving on and people having less time for hg is slowly killing the game, we always focus on issues that seem easier to solve (or at least confront) head on, like changing #s on game stats or releasing new areas or looking @ how cheaters/scumbags were handled. i just feel like it's been a couple years now with a looming sense of "we have to accept that it's time to fundamentally change some of the long-accepted tenets of the game because the foundation it was built on no longer serves as well". i think it's been staring us in the face for a long time, but because it's so easy to nope out on drastic changes that make the game easier to "win", the focus tends to center on catering to the remaining influential/elite players in the hopes they'll stick around and keep catalyzing run progress. i'm not saying stop doing that--not much choice there tbh, and hasn't been for a long time either--but i really, really, really do think that hg is just too much time for people nowadays, and anything that can help with that would help the game.
|
|
|
Post by axis16881 on Sept 13, 2019 1:47:58 GMT
Well said. That's a great idea Bale.
|
|
|
Post by Methes on Sept 13, 2019 7:07:34 GMT
Good point Bale. I'd even go as far as limiting the max number of players in a party to lets say 5 and downscaling content difficulty to that level to accomodate to lower population. That might encourage using hybrid builds too to cover more roles in a party than ABCD+tank.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2019 8:14:01 GMT
Sry, Methes, how does limiting party size even more encourage people to want to stay here? And on top of that make it more imperative to focus on certain party compositions? And as there is still a guild with more than 5 people that regularly do scheduled runs, how does this pan out? Have you done a limbo part 2 with 5 people? Thinking that's gunna be at least double the time. Yay. Exactly opposite of Bale's idea.
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Sept 13, 2019 9:13:08 GMT
I might actually say that increasing party size to say 12 would help as its irritating to find you're the 11th person who turns up for a called run to get left out, whilst this does not happen often its still a downer when it does especially if its a run you've been waiting for. I would suspect that 12 wouldn't break current runs whereas going higher than this might especially for the areas where dynamic spawns are not present.
|
|
|
Post by Matt on Sept 13, 2019 11:54:46 GMT
Dont know if this is a completely dumb idea or ridiculously hard to accomplish for the devs. But some kind of difficulty/power scaling type script somewhat akin to Limbo hard/normal iirc, that allows parties to decide on the difficulty of run via the entry portal/text.
For example, to keep things fairly simple, a choice of easy/normal/hard modes that purely and simply lowers the amount of creatures in spawns, potentially removing some of the really nasty mobs at the cost of a considerably reduced loot chance and or the lack of certain set loots and mini boss drops etc..
This would allow for smaller parties and non boxers to do runs they normally physically cant with 2 or 3 characters and at the same time allow the multiboxers to run to their hearts content as it wouldnt be restricted by party size, purely the spawn and difficulty rating of the area.
I love the mod as it is, and have a lot to learn still but i do think something along those lines could allow people to dedicate their time to runs knowing it wont take as long and that they wont get quite the same goodies from random loot, purely the tags the runs posses etc...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2019 13:44:24 GMT
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Sept 13, 2019 14:00:44 GMT
If I were to suggest something: This makes runs faster (no loot split, looter, explosion, drama or any other issues). This also allow people to leave mid run (or join mid run) and get proportional loot (tokens) without as many issues. Perhaps gold could be such token, and it drops proportional to character level and area level, just like xp scales.
As someone who has "returned" more than once. I thought I might add my observations. 1. The LL Runs are for people who have more time to dedicate to this game than I do. (And I'm retired) I'm not just talking about long runs, but also the number of runs repeated endlessly in search of specific items needed to progress even further. Both XP/gear Progression and Run Duration are very time expensive (and only compatible to students, who aren't the probable public players to this old game). (I wonder if it's possible to extract the current age of players active in the last year or so to get a better perspective on this) 6. I feel that one of the BEST Features of HG is the variety. Us casual gamers can enjoy the Hell out of the Lower Forty and Hard Core Lifers can still make awesome LL runs. People can -HC-, if that is their thing. I LOVE the ability to explore new builds and new Classes. (without expecting the build to make it to Demix5 - whatever the heck that means - lol) I also love havingthe class/build diversity but I feel that the way the progression works is quite detrimental to this variety advantage. I do rather have a account wise tag that requires me to inflict the killing blow on bandit lord at level 10 (which requires build strategy) rather than have to do it with every character by watching a generic sorcerer with pre-farmed loot in party kill it for the tag. Does watching a sorcerer do the heavy work for 35 levels of tags accomplish anything in pre-ll when I'm building a barbarian? (nope)
What about scaling differently? For newer players, starting at level 15-21 would allow people to enjoy those fancy quasiclasses right out of the gate. Or even newer spells or class features. Maybe some account tags increase your initial level. I wouldn't mind creating character at level 60 myself after doing all 40-60 areas. My point would be, if people could have multiple adequately leveled characters on their accounts, sharing accomplishments/progression it would be way easier to form parties AND would increased loot demand (and market usage). It would also allow people to try different classes, builds, have no drama at trying to form a party (people could flex more, swap out character they feel that don't work).
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Sept 13, 2019 18:03:34 GMT
here's another idea: what if, upon acquiring their skull, each character gets a freebie writ (bound). one get-out-of-jail-free card. unlike suggestions that include token-izing or otherwise allowing farmable means of out-of-order hell progress, this proposal shouldn't have much impact on "balance" or make old players salty (like a lot of more drastic approaches to re-designing the LL->Hell/endgame structure would--although tbh at this point that concern needs to go out the window), wouldn't really effect the economy or deflate the value of writs, oh also wouldn't require any real devwork.
i don't think it would make a yuuuuuge QoL upgrade or anything, but i think every toon having 1 backup writ onhand for that night when the stars align, could actually translate into a fair improvement for run formation. we all have been thru that last-second !bazaar or !chat or yelling at friend to hurry up and check their bank or, even more frequently (i swear this has to happen in like 80%, or at least PUG) the classic "we're gonna assume a writ drops so use this one now and we'll work it out later @ split".
maybe kinda dumb but i think that'd be cool.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Sept 13, 2019 22:57:21 GMT
Sry, Methes, how does limiting party size even more encourage people to want to stay here? And on top of that make it more imperative to focus on certain party compositions? And as there is still a guild with more than 5 people that regularly do scheduled runs, how does this pan out? Have you done a limbo part 2 with 5 people? Thinking that's gunna be at least double the time. Yay. Exactly opposite of Bale's idea. You skipped the part where he said to downscale difficulty to accommodate the change. I think the game is vastly more fun in groups of 4-7 players/characters, even on current difficulty. Including Limbo PT2H, but that would assume more or less optimized lineup (and 7, not 4 characters, on more than 4 players too preferably hah). Then there's the LL runs, where most of the time it's one caster doing the work of the whole party - Aboleths where shifter/mage do the stuff and others show up for loot, Nessus where one tank deals 75% of all tank damage, Elysium soloing in parties of 2-4 players etc etc; many succesful Abyss farms were done even at lvl 60 (!!) in parties of 5 or less... It's not like our parties need to be high in character count, just actively played ones. The times where there are 1-4 players and 4+ -actually- completely inactive stationary toons or just providing persistent buffs is way too fucking high. I'm irrationally irritated by this. Anyhow, considering it's probably infinitely more fun for the Devs to do new stuff they haven't done before, play with lore they haven't touched before, and expand the world they've created rather than do huge overhauls of the difficulty system on previous levels, I'd stick to keeping any suggestions to at least reasonable executing standard and stuff that's not too prone for unintended abusing loopholes which will cause annoyance and more work in the future. Now, I'm at fault too for asking for tricky things like Hells/Abyss Hard mode, but some of these suggestions would require complete overhauls of all the value, progression etc in the game. Keep that in mind when writing long ass posts to propose such things - ironically I'm writing a longass post myself with such things in mind. Wall disclaimer again!!
- I think there's good stuff in there coming up else I wouldn't bother writing it nor go so far as to aski anyone to read so much of an individual non-dev players' scribbles as it is a tough ask, so feel free to skip. Not quoting anyone so just me and myself from now on. Specific implementation ideas towards the end. Onwards! On the note of reducing difficulty heavily yet still granting tags... Meh, the game is already very easy excluding very specific runs and very underwhelming class/gear/experience combinations. If anything, reduce mob durability but sharpen their fangs (not excessively their debilitating methods though; those are direct slowing mechanisms too - something the player can play/build/gear around). Few things are deadly, but most endgame runs are pretty slow to do even in fairly decent parties, and run formation to get an actually good lineup running has proven to be like pulling teeth at times. Even low level tags can take a long time if lacking xyz (like an exotic damage source) - this has been changed significantly for the better in recent year(s?). People want to tag the toons they're building up, and that's understandable considering the time limitations and the will to experience the world on characters of choice - but fact of the matter is weapon buffs, other buffs, failsafe epics, specific ways to deal with specific sturdy annoyances like conceal dropping, 2h weapon%, high SR drops etc etc limit what we want to have on runs, though the infamous "bots" alleviate this to an extent. It's truly a tricky equation to give player characters offensive tools while keeping their own special niches intact without muddling it all up, keep that special feeling yet usefulness and so on - and then figure out how to actually implement the changes deemed worthwhile or necessary. Huff. My top list, which has been evident in other posts in various subjects: *Hells doable in any order except Nessus the final hurdle for Demigod bonus, only available for tagging if all others including Cania done beforehand. *Conceal dropping mechanism stop being a Ranger special and brought to a skill based source (for individual targets, not necessarily AoE like Rangers) - Rangers have their niches like Assassins even without Invis Purge in Called Shot and all the other free stuff and the ability to swap between Melee and Ranged, and doing their nimble things with a pinch of magical prowess. None of that common archetype is lost by sharing Invis Purge. Example implementation: Spot grants a quick action targetable that reduces enemy concealment by Skill/11, or some other formula. Not everyone needs to Spot same as not everyone needs to Persuade - it would not be mandatory on all attackers, but useful enough and remove Rangers from their pedestal and bring them more in line with others. NwN regular spot users: arcane archer, assassin, champion of Torm, dwarven defender, red dragon disciple, shadowdancer, ranger, rogue, shifter, weapon master. Could add Spot as a Class Skill to Divine Slingers - and if Listen access were equalized among classes as discussed in another thread, the Half-Elves having LSA:Spot would even the scales for the subs designed specifically for Half-Elven non-listen classes. *More XP gained in LL tier aka 41-60; and preferably in Tag form (one time completion xp bonus) so people are incentivized to do different things, not repeat the popular ones. *XR tagging right unlocked on character upon completion of Limbo2 Hard, heck even allow BUR tagging upon slaying Asmodeus to incentivize people to play their funny races like Stinger, Fallen Angel, Treant, Doppleganger, Rakshasa, Half-Dragon:Black, kobolds, gnolls & goblins etc to Demihood and beyond before changing - and allowing people the shot to try different things with reasonable cost for progression later on (even if they have already unlocked a superior BUR). *Increasing tag/xp range in 1-40 to from 6 to 8. *More liberal quasi special infliction access to both Immunity and DR depending on class/type/ability as means to improve Class balance and Player offense Examples: RDDs / DSM / BFM with their respective element infliction/dr drop, Pariahs with Physical (flensing got gutted unfairly!); GIs with Shrapnel/explosions (fire/phys/whatever imploding), Heralds with their clouds; Staffmasters with their chosen type; BKs with Vile, etc. Note that spreading this to specific types would not reduce the overall usefulness that is the Lash, nor make them less special in their universal exceptional prowess. Worse was when shifterlash just did the same and better. It would be only fair considering these guys pay for stuff that's worse than their Base class variants excluding Lash. Consequently speed up runs by increasing damage across the board among the (currently) less favourable classes. ... I hope all of the above are somewhat easy on the Zots (at least more so than a complete overhaul) and yet ease the progression through all phases of the game, and also hoping none would break balance too harshly. I am unsure of how the difficulty scaling and mob durability should if it even should be nerfed to reduce runtimes without lowering challenge excessively... Won't try to crack that nut in any other way except the Concealment/Class balance debacle here. That being said, I did prefer the Hell immunities from before vastly compared to current situation, but don't really want to go to the "casters!tanks!casters!tanks!" thing anymore. XR weapons and changed immunities turned that on it's head and it's some barf to examine.
|
|
|
Post by Bad on Sept 14, 2019 4:54:10 GMT
This thread is like the passengers of the Titanic debating what color to paint the deck chairs, after striking the iceberg.
Having spent quite a bit of time marketing this server, and getting us new players; I think that there needs to be a serious discussion about where to go from here (This can still be fixed, but only just)
There is very little time to have this discussion, as the server is no longer able to form organic endgame runs, which means we will continue to bleed players until this is fixed.
People who can't get the runs they need leave. Time to wake up!
|
|
|
Post by kid on Sept 14, 2019 12:14:51 GMT
HG is a great game compared to a lot of others I've tried. I'll always continue to play when I have the time. Summer's are extremely busy for me. That being said there are a lot of time consuming quests that are really a turn off that drive me to take leave for a short time because of frustration which in turns stops my friends who I organize to log on stop playing. Example: trying for 6 times for a Wis Arti for Mud and getting nothing utter annoyance. Like getting a Wis Arti is in somehow going change the dynamics of the game or we talk about going to other areas like abyss or limbo but I first have to help them get chars leveled and geared but we do a run like abo over and over and the MF ring never drops. Once again I leave the game in frustration is this suppose to be a relaxing, a escape from the day to day grind or a hair pulling event that makes we want to rage quit. I could go on and on like Rona for a spell pene Arti enough said just by mentioning this time consuming event in 14 years I've gotten 1 Arti same goes for a shield pandect from min. I have one in 14 years. SAD! . That alone would make most people walk away and never look back but once again this game drags me back because of its close ties to what D&D stands for but even a DM in a well pencilled game will allow the players the win what they need to advance because at the end of the day its suppose to be fun. Obviously not even getting into the xp drag for new players and old. We talk about this all the time when xp bonus comes out and the server fills well no wonder when were talking millions of millions of xp needed to level. That is a pretty daunting task when abyss stats don't start kicking in until 75 plus or limbo books cant be read until 80 why even bother collecting canopics for mud or max because they will not read a book in their lifetime. This content as already been talked about just loosen those reins a bit and up the percentages on needed gear so players can tap into the other content the game has to offer.
|
|
|
Post by Enius the White on Sept 14, 2019 14:15:08 GMT
Example: trying for 6 times for a Wis Arti for Mud and getting nothing utter annoyance. Like getting a Wis Arti is in somehow going change the dynamics of the game or we talk about going to other areas like abyss or limbo but I first have to help them get chars leveled and geared but we do a run like abo over and over and the MF ring never drops. Once again I leave the game in frustration is this suppose to be a relaxing, a escape from the day to day grind or a hair pulling event that makes we want to rage quit. I could go on and on like Rona for a spell pene Arti enough said just by mentioning this time consuming event in 14 years I've gotten 1 Arti same goes for a shield pandect from min. I have one in 14 years. SAD! Probability can be a fickle friend, indeed! Most of us have been there, and can relate, Kid. I think we can all help to ameliorate this specific issue a bit. If you see someone shout for a wtt or wtb on the trade channel, on webdash, etc, and you have the needed item to spare, please consider taking a minute to affect a trade/sale.
|
|
|
Post by Enius the White on Sept 14, 2019 14:29:57 GMT
Having spent quite a bit of time marketing this server, and getting us new players; I think that there needs to be a serious discussion about where to go from here (This can still be fixed, but only just) Bad, the DTs have been a cornerstone to HG for as long as I can remember, and your personal contribution to the community has been outstanding. Any ideas that you can offer would be very welcome.
|
|